Deathwatch vs. Rubric

[Zodd1888]

Hey does anyone have the point values out there for these guys? I'm just curious what the variance is for our inferno bolters vs. special ammo. Are their units more expensive than stock because of their ability to tack on abilities to squads from adding Aggressors or otherwise?

 

They seem really neat and are one of the only marine groups with special ammo so I thought it's a good comparison.

[Charlo]

I think around 15-17 points a normal veteran, slightly more for a Primaris.

 

In that they also get mission tactics which is re-roll 1s against a specific battlefield role (chosen for the army at the beginning of the battle).

[UsernameTaken]

Rubric marines cost 18 points per model (whereas normal chaos space marines cost 13), but this is due to all is dust and -1 movement.

 

Inferno bolters cost 2 points (whereas normal bolters are free). I don't have the deathwatch codex, but according to spikey bits: "Weapon point costs are increased by 1-2 point to accommodate the addition of special ammo.", which to me seems pretty cheap given the far superior adaptability of SIA compared to our inferno rounds.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Its actually a pretty complicated comparison. Deathwatch vets are super flexible, and now primaris are added to the mix.

 

For vets, I think thousand sons are much more durable, but much more specialized. Rubrics are best when going up against infantry, though with stratagems they can take out vehicle. Vets have a ton of options, so you can tailor them to what you need, but your going to end up with a lot of expensive 1 wound models that have regular marine toughness. If combat squads are still based on 10 models this may change, just because you could take 5 bikes to get objective secured bikes with SIA, then take the vets as devastators. While being able to use a battalion for command points.

 

Primaris on the other hand, are basically going to cost the same as rubrics. Their Special issue ammo will be slightly better, and the second wound is really good vs. mortal wounds. They don't have an inv. save though, and their transport is really expensive, they can mix in hellblasters which is good but they still won't be very flexible.

[Zodd1888]

I feel like the Primaris DW are what you'd take hands down. They can get the equivalent of our Inferno Bolter and our extra wound for a better deal and more range.

 

IMO. 3+ w/2W seems much better than 2+/5++ w/1W given that you're either targeted by multi-wound weapons or high AP to effectively remove Rubrics. On small arms the +1W is more effective than +1 save.

 

Standard vet squads sound junky though, at least objectively.

[Scammel]

A straight-up comparison is going to be limited in usefulness here. Yes, there's similarities in that both units are elite MEQs with fancy weaponry with readily available buffs, but Deathwatch feel the sting of being an elite army more than most with limited unit selection. Sons don't boast much in the way of sheer numbers of units, but they have quite a lot of flexibility within that - hordes, two varieties of 'jetbike', beasts and others alongside the bulk of the usual Astartes armoury. Outside of other detachments Deathwatch are always going to be wading around in power armour, and the price will reflect that.

[Nym]

Primaris DW win on all fronts vs Rubrics. More damage, more versatility, higher toughness against all weapons except AP-3 Multi-damage, more resistant to Mortal wounds. If they end up costing 20pts w/ weapon, I'll cry...

[Raven1]

Primaris DW win on all fronts vs Rubrics. More damage, more versatility, higher toughness against all weapons except AP-3 Multi-damage, more resistant to Mortal wounds. If they end up costing 20pts w/ weapon, I'll cry...

Seeing as Primaris are perceived as "not good" a part of GW biggest faction, and the newest must buy item they will more likely be priced unreasonably low as opposed to unreasonably high.

[Aothaine]

Primaris are the same cost as they are in the SM book, the Bolt Rifles are I think 2 points if I remember correctly. Storm Bolters are 4 points. boltguns should be 1 point and the vets are 16 points before weapons.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Primaris DW win on all fronts vs Rubrics. More damage, more versatility, higher toughness against all weapons except AP-3 Multi-damage, more resistant to Mortal wounds. If they end up costing 20pts w/ weapon, I'll cry...

 

Yeah ... No. 

 

Primaris aren't great..... The only thing I see from Primaris in general that's impressive is the 2 wound statline, their rifles are overall worse then ours despite longer range, and we have a psyker in the unit for effectively free.  Ill give you resistant to mortals, but we sling so many I dont see why that would even matter all that much. 

 

Its not *quite* a 1-1 comparison obviously, but DW Primaris are in an army of elite models with no cheap options.... they may look impressive on paper but hit the squad with plasma or any competent D2+ gun and they would melt.   Inferno shells + VOTLW = red smear when I fire at them usually, (Note; this assumes double tap) at least the local "10 man hellblaster" squad standard I see in lots of lists. 

 

On Points cost; I actually think when the end of year FAQ comes out we will start to see something in that regard. If everyones troops (dark eldar as example) are shooting down in price or leveling out Id expect our book will get some changes somewhere. Though this is of course speculation.  

[Nym]

Primaris aren't great..... The only thing I see from Primaris in general that's impressive is the 2 wound statline, their rifles are overall worse then ours despite longer range, and we have a psyker in the unit for effectively free.  Ill give you resistant to mortals, but we sling so many I dont see why that would even matter all that much. 

 

Its not *quite* a 1-1 comparison obviously, but DW Primaris are in an army of elite models with no cheap options.... they may look impressive on paper but hit the squad with plasma or any competent D2+ gun and they would melt.   Inferno shells + VOTLW = red smear when I fire at them usually, (Note; this assumes double tap) at least the local "10 man hellblaster" squad standard I see in lots of lists. 

 

On Points cost; I actually think when the end of year FAQ comes out we will start to see something in that regard. If everyones troops (dark eldar as example) are shooting down in price or leveling out Id expect our book will get some changes somewhere. Though this is of course speculation.  

Well, I never said Primaris are great, just that DW Primaris are way better than Rubrics. Their rifles are overall way BETTER than ours (not worse), they have Special Issue Ammunitions remember ? And our Psyker is not free at all, it costs 27pts for 0.833 MW (because Smite is the only power worth casting with them). If some maths are needed, I'll provide them at the end of this post.

 

Btw, DW Primaris are NOT an army of elite models, they're an <IMPERIUM> army, so they can and will have a cheap Astra Millitarum Battalion or Brigade.

 

For the comparison vs Plasma, see below.

 

MatHammer time : Offense

 

I won't do any math here because, at the very least, a DW Intercessor has the equivalent of an Inferno Boltgun (S4 AP-2 D1) but with a range of 36" instead of 24" or S4 AP-3 (!!!) with a range of 24". If that was not crazy enough, it can also fire Hellfire Rounds at S4 AP-1 at 30" which wound anything on 2+ (except Vehicles and Titanic units).

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins handily

 

MatHammer time : Defense

(number of wounds*save*to wound*to hit [bS3+])

 

vs Mortal Wounds

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 100% tougher.

 

No or In cover (doesn't matter) vs any AP0, -1 or -2 Damage 2 weapon (e.g.: Autocannon)

 

DW Intercessor  : 1*2*1.5*1.5 = 4.5 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*2*1.5*1.5 = 4.5 shots to kill

 

Result : draw

 

No cover vs any AP-3 Damage 2 weapon (e.g.: Overcharged Plasma)

 

DW Intercessor  : 1*1.16*1.16*1.5 = 2.16 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*1.5*1.16*1.5 = 2.7 shots to kill

 

Result : Rubric Marine wins, 25% tougher

 

In cover vs any AP-3 Damage 2 weapon (e.g.: Overcharged Plasma)

 

DW Intercessor  : 1*1.5*1.16*1.5 = 2.7 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*1.5*1.16*1.5 = 2.7 shots to kill

 

Result : draw

 

No cover vs any AP0 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*3*2*1.5 = 18 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*6*2*1.5 = 18 shots to kill

 

Result : draw

 

In cover vs any AP0 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*6*2*1.5 = 36 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*6*2*1.5 = 18 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 100% tougher

 

No cover vs any AP-1 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Heavy Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*2*1.5*1.5 = 9 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*3*1.5*1.5 = 6.75 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 33.33% tougher

 

In cover vs any AP-1 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Heavy Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*3*1.5*1.5 = 13.5 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*6*1.5*1.5 = 13.5 shots to kill

 

Result : draw

 

No cover vs any AP-2 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Inferno Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*1.5*2*1.5 = 9 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*2*2*1.5 = 6 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 50% tougher

 

In cover vs any AP-2 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Inferno Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*2*2*1.5 = 12 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*3*2*1.5 = 9 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 50% tougher

 

No cover vs any AP-3 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Plasmagun)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*1.16*2*1.5 = 5.4 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*2*1.5*1.5 = 4.5 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 20% tougher

 

In cover vs any AP-3 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Plasmagun)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*2*2*1.5 = 6.75 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*3*2*1.5 = 4.5 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 50% tougher

 

Conclusion :

 

If both units end up costing 20pts per model, the DW Intercessor, as I said before, wins on all fronts vs the Rubric Marine (except against Overcharged Plasma). Both have access to a +1 to Wound stratagem, so it's pointless to take that into account. Both also have access to a Heavy Weapon user (Aggressor or Hellblaster vs Soulreaper Cannon).

 

The Deatwatch Intercessors can take an Inceptor that allows them to Disengage and still shoot, and they have 2 attacks per model in Close combat.

 

The Rubric Marines have an Aspiring Sorcerer, a 27pts model that casts WC7 powers with a 58% success rate, WC6 powers 70% of the time and WC5 powers 83%.

 

Is the Aspiring Sorcerer worth the damage or the versatility of the Deatwatch Intercessor ? Is the marginal increased toughness vs OC Plasma of the Rubric worth the huge toughness vs anything else of the Intercessor ? You make the call.

[Zodd1888]

@Nym,

 

I copied your entire post and forwarded to 40KFAQ@GWPLC.com with your name attached. You put forward a good amount of detail and provide both perspectives through your quote and your analysis. I would honestly recommend anyone who has concerns for Rubrics or SOT to forward this off as it's an excellent summary.

[Nym]

Well, I hope I didn't make too many mistakes then ! (I already spotted one, damn...)

 

I don't think it matters to GW though. They have a weird way of assessing what's balanced or not (see Miasma of Pestilence vs Glamour of Tzeentch for a good example). To them, Rubric Marines might be costed appropriately, hence Chapter Approved and our Codex going out with no point reduction.

[WarriorFish]

Isn't it premature if we don't know the DW costs yet? That said as much as DW desperate for and deserves a strong shot in the army, that shouldn't come at the "cost" of another codex. Some parity is required, as much as things are subject to internal balance so I hope that is the case.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Primaris aren't great..... The only thing I see from Primaris in general that's impressive is the 2 wound statline, their rifles are overall worse then ours despite longer range, and we have a psyker in the unit for effectively free.  Ill give you resistant to mortals, but we sling so many I dont see why that would even matter all that much. 

 

Its not *quite* a 1-1 comparison obviously, but DW Primaris are in an army of elite models with no cheap options.... they may look impressive on paper but hit the squad with plasma or any competent D2+ gun and they would melt.   Inferno shells + VOTLW = red smear when I fire at them usually, (Note; this assumes double tap) at least the local "10 man hellblaster" squad standard I see in lots of lists. 

 

On Points cost; I actually think when the end of year FAQ comes out we will start to see something in that regard. If everyones troops (dark eldar as example) are shooting down in price or leveling out Id expect our book will get some changes somewhere. Though this is of course speculation.

Well, I never said Primaris are great, just that DW Primaris are way better than Rubrics. Their rifles are overall way BETTER than ours (not worse), they have Special Issue Ammunitions remember ? And our Psyker is not free at all, it costs 27pts for 0.833 MW (because Smite is the only power worth casting with them). If some maths are needed, I'll provide them at the end of this post.

 

Btw, DW Primaris are NOT an army of elite models, they're an <IMPERIUM> army, so they can and will have a cheap Astra Millitarum Battalion or Brigade.

 

For the comparison vs Plasma, see below.

 

MatHammer time : Offense

 

I won't do any math here because, at the very least, a DW Intercessor has the equivalent of an Inferno Boltgun (S4 AP-2 D1) but with a range of 36" instead of 24" or S4 AP-3 (!!!) with a range of 24". If that was not crazy enough, it can also fire Hellfire Rounds at S4 AP-1 at 30" which wound anything on 2+ (except Vehicles and Titanic units).

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins handily

 

MatHammer time : Defense

(number of wounds*save*to wound*to hit [bS3+])

 

vs Mortal Wounds

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 100% tougher.

 

No or In cover (doesn't matter) vs any AP0, -1 or -2 Damage 2 weapon (e.g.: Autocannon)

 

DW Intercessor  : 1*2*1.5*1.5 = 4.5 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*2*1.5*1.5 = 4.5 shots to kill

 

Result : draw

 

No cover vs any AP-3 Damage 2 weapon (e.g.: Overcharged Plasma)

 

DW Intercessor  : 1*1.16*1.16*1.5 = 2.16 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*1.5*1.16*1.5 = 2.7 shots to kill

 

Result : Rubric Marine wins, 25% tougher

 

 

In cover vs any AP-3 Damage 2 weapon (e.g.: Overcharged Plasma)

 

DW Intercessor  : 1*1.5*1.16*1.5 = 2.7 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*1.5*1.16*1.5 = 2.7 shots to kill

 

Result : draw

 

 

No cover vs any AP0 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*3*2*1.5 = 18 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*6*2*1.5 = 18 shots to kill

 

Result : draw

 

In cover vs any AP0 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*6*2*1.5 = 36 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*6*2*1.5 = 18 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 100% tougher

 

No cover vs any AP-1 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Heavy Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*2*1.5*1.5 = 9 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*3*1.5*1.5 = 6.75 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 33.33% tougher

 

In cover vs any AP-1 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Heavy Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*3*1.5*1.5 = 13.5 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*6*1.5*1.5 = 13.5 shots to kill

 

Result : draw

 

No cover vs any AP-2 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Inferno Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*1.5*2*1.5 = 9 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*2*2*1.5 = 6 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 50% tougher

 

In cover vs any AP-2 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Inferno Bolter)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*2*2*1.5 = 12 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*3*2*1.5 = 9 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 50% tougher

 

No cover vs any AP-3 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Plasmagun)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*1.16*2*1.5 = 5.4 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*2*1.5*1.5 = 4.5 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 20% tougher

 

In cover vs any AP-3 Damage 1 weapon (e.g.: Plasmagun)

 

DW Intercessor  : 2*2*2*1.5 = 6.75 shots to kill

Rubric Marine : 1*3*2*1.5 = 4.5 shots to kill

 

Result : DW Intercessor wins, 50% tougher

 

Conclusion :

 

If both units end up costing 20pts per model, the DW Intercessor, as I said before, wins on all fronts vs the Rubric Marine (except against Overcharged Plasma). Both have access to a +1 to Wound stratagem, so it's pointless to take that into account. Both also have access to a Heavy Weapon user (Aggressor or Hellblaster vs Soulreaper Cannon).

 

The Deatwatch Intercessors can take an Inceptor that allows them to Disengage and still shoot, and they have 2 attacks per model in Close combat.

 

The Rubric Marines have an Aspiring Sorcerer, a 27pts model that casts WC7 powers with a 58% success rate, WC6 powers 70% of the time and WC5 powers 83%.

 

Is the Aspiring Sorcerer worth the damage or the versatility of the Deatwatch Intercessor ? Is the marginal increased toughness vs OC Plasma of the Rubric worth the huge toughness vs anything else of the Intercessor ? You make the call.

 

The Aspiring also has a D3 damage CC weapon and Primaris have access to a power sword, but no Invuln saves. Aspiring has access to a Plasma Pistol as well, and if the two squads face each other in HTH, then Death to the False Emperor kicks in.

 

Not saying it sways anything, but it should be factored in.

 

According to people who have the Codex (Miniwargaming, Winters SEO, etc.), Hellblasters, Aggressors, and Inceptors have not had points changes because no special ammo, and a base Intercessor is 20pts with Bolt Rifle and Bolt Pistol.

 

This puts an Inceptor with Assault Bolters at 45pts, Plasma at 59. A Frag/Bolter Aggressor remains at 37 and a Flamestorm Aggressor at 39. An Assault Hellblaster is 35.

 

Soulreaper gunner is 33 for Rubrics, as is one with a Warpflamer.

 

Assuming this is correct, we might not be as bad off as we think. It would be interesting to see the above worked into the math.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Holy crap, Nym. Hell of a response. Lots of good points, but....

 

Couple of points to clarify; I look at things in a Codex to Codex perspective, in my meta out of a couple dozen regular players almost all players go Mono-Codex. They don't go "MAXIMUM SOUP!" and soup it out generally.  So when I look at DW Primaris such as this I think of them in a vacuum concerning their use in a Deathwatch style army, with all the strengths and weakness that entails. I am much the same; I play basically pure 1k sons.

 

Within Codexs we have far more options to fill in various roles, deathwatch far less so, by 20 some odd rubrics are often backed up by another 20+ cultists and 30-40 Tzaangors (depending on list type of course) where as the deathwatch squads as troops are *incredibly* expensive without much way of mitigating that, so they *need* to hit hard when they shoot. So while they have incredible versatility, that same squad is going to be as expensive if not more expensive then one of our 10 man Rubricae units with a soul reaper (my standard is 10 with soul reaper included)  220 for the 10, id imagine a tooled out deathwatch squad will be a bit far north of that. 

 

Question; why do you think that Aspirings are only good at smite? I rarely ever cast that with them and usually go for either the firestorm (pick your target!), or a WC 6 spell. (or in clutch moments I spend the 1CP for a spell swap to w/e i need at the time, yay spell familiar and three lores!!)  The WC 6 spells are fine on the bugger.   I usually find the risk of a perils on a Rubricae squad to risky to even warrant the use of a "single" mortal wound (unless it will do something important such as dig them out of a combat for the subsequent shooting phase or kill an important enemy unit with 1 wound left) 

 

I think when you cross compare books we stand far stronger, having 3 troops slots each with a valid roll on table certainly helps, and id still take a squad of rubricae to a unit of deathwatch any day of the week.  Though to be fair, power armor this edition has some major issues.  Eventually GW will handle this issue im sure......but no idea how lol. 
 

[Nym]

@Son : yeah, YMMV as they say ! But I always try to look at things in the most objective way, with no personnal bias. If you're lucky enough to have a mono-codex meta that's great, but mix-and-matching armies is a fundamental rule of 8th edition, so it has to be accounted for when considering the viability / power of a unit or army in "TheoryHammer".

 

With this in mind, my personnal opinion is that 3x 5-men squads of Intercessors to fill out a Battalion is very solid for those who want to run mono-Deathwatch. With Hellfire Rounds, a squad of 5 can put 3 or 4 wounds on a <MONSTER> (Tyranids, Greater Daemons, etc...), this is massive. By comparison, regular Intercessors and Rubrics deal only 1 or 2 wounds... And against Orks that's 6.5 wounds vs 3.33 wounds for regular Intercessors or Rubrics.

 

One awesome thing I forgot about DW Intercessors : Pistols. They benefit from Special Ammunitions and make them true terrors in Close Combat. Even with Death To the False Emperor, Rubrics can't compare at all.

 

Regarding Aspiring Sorcerers, I think they suck because they're redundant. 99% of all the competitive TS lists run 4 Psyker characters. That's 8-9 powers to choose from and only 5 of them are vital to our army : Gaze of fate, Warptime, Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of fate and Prescience. So most of the time, Aspiring Sorcerers get duplicates (Weaver or Glamour) or terrible powers (Tzeentch Firestorm or Doombolt) or farm Boon of mutation if you run a foot Ahriman / Exalted. If Tzeentch Firestorm was WC5 as it should be or Doombolt WC7, I'd rate them a lot higher, but currently I think they're useless. I'd rather run the CSM version for the Soulreaper / 5-men and lose the Psychic powers.

[Sonoftherubric21]

That is fair, but at a certain point that just becomes a "take the best points cost units in game ad nauseam" (Que brimstone horrors in the conversation, as example) 

Then again the tourney scene has always been "spam best" so that's a fair point lol. 

 

I get that the higher cast spells (and duplicates) both can come into play, but from my experience the strength (using the term sparingly) of firestorm is that against its high cast cost its got incredibly high variability, which in this case when casting It I say to myself "if it deals one wound; thats fine" and plan around it. I have actually had games where the spell has one-shot a character. (rolled 4 sixes...insta gibbing a banner bearer) 

 

Along with the crux of the spell;  Pick. Your. TARGET!  This is incredibly potent in some of the lists I have run, I have those friends that turtle with hellblasters and a chapter master...... Ahriman gets Firestorm, Doombolt, and Infernal gaze, a nearby prince gets bolt of change and gaze of fate. (I cant remember the rest of the build off-hand but that's the core of it)  abusing the 24 inch range cast means that most viable targets will be in range easily, and most people don't bother to body-block models anymore due to LOS (that and our giant head dresses and princes being big helps!) 

With even average rolls your looking at nailing a 4 wound target easily, or if anything spikes a 5 wound kill. I have infuriated some local players by getting rid of their warlord, or an essential support piece by doing this.  It does take a fair bit of resources to do reliably; but if it goes off you have a substantial long term advantage over them and a dead character on their end. Usually top of turn 1, maybe turn 2. 

 

I don't know if its just my abnormal luck, but I have done this consistently across several opposing armies (Dark eldar, all kinds of Marines, Guard, Ad Mech) just a strategy that I quite like using, to be fair the +1 to cast really helps, and is essential for several of these spells to work consecutively.  (re-rolls being the other thing....helps alot that we effectively have 2 a turn in most circumstances) 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

@Son : yeah, YMMV as they say ! But I always try to look at things in the most objective way, with no personnal bias. If you're lucky enough to have a mono-codex meta that's great, but mix-and-matching armies is a fundamental rule of 8th edition, so it has to be accounted for when considering the viability / power of a unit or army in "TheoryHammer".

 

With this in mind, my personnal opinion is that 3x 5-men squads of Intercessors to fill out a Battalion is very solid for those who want to run mono-Deathwatch. With Hellfire Rounds, a squad of 5 can put 3 or 4 wounds on a <MONSTER> (Tyranids, Greater Daemons, etc...), this is massive. By comparison, regular Intercessors and Rubrics deal only 1 or 2 wounds... And against Orks that's 6.5 wounds vs 3.33 wounds for regular Intercessors or Rubrics.

 

One awesome thing I forgot about DW Intercessors : Pistols. They benefit from Special Ammunitions and make them true terrors in Close Combat. Even with Death To the False Emperor, Rubrics can't compare at all.

 

Regarding Aspiring Sorcerers, I think they suck because they're redundant. 99% of all the competitive TS lists run 4 Psyker characters. That's 8-9 powers to choose from and only 5 of them are vital to our army : Gaze of fate, Warptime, Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of fate and Prescience. So most of the time, Aspiring Sorcerers get duplicates (Weaver or Glamour) or terrible powers (Tzeentch Firestorm or Doombolt) or farm Boon of mutation if you run a foot Ahriman / Exalted. If Tzeentch Firestorm was WC5 as it should be or Doombolt WC7, I'd rate them a lot higher, but currently I think they're useless. I'd rather run the CSM version for the Soulreaper / 5-men and lose the Psychic powers.

On the Pistols, you're not just comparing against Death to the False Emperor, you're also comparing against a Plasma Pistol, a D3 damage CC Weapon,Smite in CC (or Infernal Gaze if you want to spend a CP to switch), and 4++ vs the Sergeant's Power Sword. Also, they will almost never get to fire Pistols at full effectiveness because some will die in the first round of CC and they can't fire until the next shooting phase.

 

Again, not sure what difference it makes, but it should be mentioned.

[Archaeinox]

Rubric and Scarab Sorcerers serve one purpose and one purpose only: They all should have Weaver of Fates. It is easy to cast since they get no help and you have better board coverage with it on 2-4 guys to put it where it is needed most. The characters need the other powers.

[Are Verlo]

And let us not forget that the Aspriring Sorcerer brings the jawdropping, awe-inspiring soul flare stratagem to the mix

Joking aside, the mathhammer is correct, there are many situations where the DW primaris outshine the rubric marines.

 

But with that being said, I think the sorcerer brings underrated power and/or flexibility to the unit.

Smite (babysmite) is not worth the risk. Flamestorm is much better and weaver is even better.

[Paladin777]

Actually, if you run the numbers over time and usage ‘mini-smite’ will deal more mortal wounds than firestorm after factoring warp charge cost and the D3 for 11+. Firestorm is heinously overcosted even with the ability to target. At WC 6 it would probably be perfect.

[Kite Senet]

Actually, if you run the numbers over time and usage ‘mini-smite’ will deal more mortal wounds than firestorm after factoring warp charge cost and the D3 for 11+. Firestorm is heinously overcosted even with the ability to target. At WC 6 it would probably be perfect.

Yes, but even as it is, mini-Smite only beats Firestorm by about 0.02 expected mortal wounds per cast, if I remember the calculations correctly. Hitting something that's actually a priority rather than just the closest target seems worth it to me...if casting is even worth the risk of Perils to begin with, that is.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Actually, if you run the numbers over time and usage ‘mini-smite’ will deal more mortal wounds than firestorm after factoring warp charge cost and the D3 for 11+. Firestorm is heinously overcosted even with the ability to target. At WC 6 it would probably be perfect.

Yes, but even as it is, mini-Smite only beats Firestorm by about 0.02 expected mortal wounds per cast, if I remember the calculations correctly. Hitting something that's actually a priority rather than just the closest target seems worth it to me...if casting is even worth the risk of Perils to begin with, that is.

 

 

QFT.  

 

The "pick your target" is the most important part of firestorm.  As I have said. The amount of mortal wounds dealt compared to a regular smite (or mini smite) is a moot point if your playing against someone that is generally competent.  You won't be targeting anything important with smites till turn 3 at least. Generally it just eats chaff from my experience.  Firestorm doesn't have that issue.

 

But; knowing when to risk the cast is important with us given our Aspirings risk for cascading perils effect. 

[Archaeinox]

My smites have been absolutely awful lately. Most of the times it's going into Rhinos that have charged my units or Scarabs that have ran ahead of necrons. It's very frustrating.

 

Unless it's a demo game or a batrep against a friend with fully painted stuff (rare..), I can't manage to have much fun with these guys.

 

"Smite spam OP" tho right