Is Codex DW what Codex Space Marines should have been?

[Deathwalker]

All in the title, what do you think?

[GrinNfool]

Not sure what you are meaning.  Do you mean fluffy, and chapter rule wise?  Or do you mean small expensive elite.  Fluff/rule feeling wise maybe?  I don't think the DW codex is amazing on that note though, feels on par to the normal SM codex.  Small expensive and elite I would say no, only because SM has never felt like that, and those types of armies tend to be unforgiving, with custodes being the one notable exception.  SM has generally been the happy medium faction, its not horde, but you can take a few losses and not feel like its over.  Because of DW's expensive cost per squad, and the fact they don't get a lot of what is in normal SM codex, playing DW has traditionally felt like hard mode 40k.  Normal SM is far too mainstream audience wise for GW to do that with SM.  They have traditionally been new player friendly (and still are).  DW isn't and I don't get the feeling from this codex that this has changed much if at all.

[Deathwalker]

Elite but flexible I guess would be my main observation. 

[Silverson]

Personally I think Primaris Marines is what space marines should of been,

 

Space marine, 2 wounds

Primaris ma Ines, 3 wounds

Custodes, 4 wounds

 

With terminators/ custodes bikes etc.... getting the extra wound on top as per now.

 

Not sure if this is along the lines of what the op was looking for opinions on.

[Irbis]

Yeah, SM need to be tougher first before being made killier. The fact they are barely any more durable than IG or Tau makes them feel like mook army, nothing like fluff.

[Ishagu]

Deathwatch is really good because you can run a Primaris army with real offensive punch.

 

As for the Vanilla Codex, the best way to run Marines is using Raven Guard infiltration followed by a high efficiency list with Guilliman.

[Irbis]

As for the Vanilla Codex, the best way to run Marines is using Raven Guard infiltration followed by a high efficiency list with Guilliman.

 

What about the players who don't want to abuse 'gotcha!' autowin mechanics or field pay-to-win FW spam plus primarch (because let's face it, Robby G is not really efficient supporting only Codex units...)?

[Lemondish]

Personally I think Primaris Marines is what space marines should of been,

 

Space marine, 2 wounds

Primaris ma Ines, 3 wounds

Custodes, 4 wounds

 

With terminators/ custodes bikes etc.... getting the extra wound on top as per now.

 

Not sure if this is along the lines of what the op was looking for opinions on.

Remove the RG chapter tactics (or have all these -1 to hit tactics only apply when wholly within cover) and I think you'll have solved the marine durability issue.

[Moostick]

I don't think SM players will like that much.

 

We're better with the codex, but I still see us as just a solid below average army as far as competitiveness goes. Probably better off than GK and Daemons, but below SM.

[autek mor]

the only thing the marine codex has that trumps DW is scouts, roboute and the stormraven. in terms of how they operate i would say that vanilla space marines in general should perform like the DW do. the best armies that the imperium have to offer should really have the best gear and be able to adapt to their opponents if we are going by the fluff.

[Deathwalker]

Personally I think Primaris Marines is what space marines should of been,

 

Space marine, 2 wounds

Primaris ma Ines, 3 wounds

Custodes, 4 wounds

 

With terminators/ custodes bikes etc.... getting the extra wound on top as per now.

 

Not sure if this is along the lines of what the op was looking for opinions on.

Not exactly.

More things like kill teams, even with just Vets, are tactically flexible and taking down multiple threats via SIA, having extra base attacks, the option of having one troop choice capable of fulfilling the Tactical, Assault or Devestator role.

They are just more flexible due to that alone, let alone the rest of the stuff (which in -this- argument is the DW distinction).

For example, instead of me looking a DA for my gunline element, and BA for my Assault element, and perhaps a 3rd "personal choice" regiment, I can look at a mass DW element, and then have 2 other options to personalise it. 

[seriade]

 

As for the Vanilla Codex, the best way to run Marines is using Raven Guard infiltration followed by a high efficiency list with Guilliman.

 

What about the players who don't want to abuse 'gotcha!' autowin mechanics or field pay-to-win FW spam plus primarch (because let's face it, Robby G is not really efficient supporting only Codex units...)?

 

The deathwatch deep strike stratagem will be abused with forgeworld.  2 Cp to deep strike a leviathan and a screening unit. Followed up with 2 corvus blackstars dropping squads/chars heavily up the field.

[Moostick]

 

 

As for the Vanilla Codex, the best way to run Marines is using Raven Guard infiltration followed by a high efficiency list with Guilliman.

 

What about the players who don't want to abuse 'gotcha!' autowin mechanics or field pay-to-win FW spam plus primarch (because let's face it, Robby G is not really efficient supporting only Codex units...)?

 

The deathwatch deep strike stratagem will be abused with forgeworld.  2 Cp to deep strike a leviathan and a screening unit. Followed up with 2 corvus blackstars dropping squads/chars heavily up the field.

 

 

And that's about 1500 if you fill those transports (more if multiple characters). Doesn't look quite as good once points come in.

 

I guess the question of this question is: Are you saying SM should have DW rules for their current cost? (Vets for 13 points). If yes, then yes they'd be amazing. If no and they follow our costs, then no.

[PiñaColada]

I sort of hope chapter approved lowers basic marines by 2 points per model, which will obviously affect a lot of stuff, including half the units in this codex. I also think any power armoured model should gain the trait to ignore one point of AP. So Ap-1 becomes AP-0 and AP-2 becomes AP-1 etc. That would make normal marines a bit more durable since a 3+ save isn't really that strong in 8th.

[Vel'Cona]

I'll need to actually read through the 'dex thoroughly first, but at this point DW seem to be purely better for running Primaris Marines, which will put off some and excite others.  I don't have a problem with DW being more "elite" than SM since their wargear/general consensus is such, but the points need to even out (meaning finalized DW lists should be smaller and more compact than SM lists), and I have a feeling that from a pure efficiency standpoint C: SM will be a tough sell.

[N1SB]

I wrote a longer post, having spoken to a tourney player that had a sneak peek at the Codex, but I think it can be shortened to this:

 

Codex: Deathwatch seems more ideal to represent the newly-founded pure (or vast majority) Primaris Chapters.

 

It was described in the Dark Millennium novel that half of the "many tens of thousands" of Primaris were organised into new Chapters (rather than being Unnumbered Sons/reinforcements for existing Chapters).  These guys may not have adopted Chapter Tactics, which took a lifetime of training and Cawl couldn't "program" into them.  However, new gear, such as all the Mark X armour, was plentiful for them, thus they could get special issue ammo.  And while Cawl couldn't teach them Chapter Tactics because that's something the Space Marines taught their own, he could have included training for mixed Primaris squad combat styles, since he basically designed the new Primaris types himself.  Codex: Deathwatch fits both this fluff and a pure Primaris playing style, probably.

 

Aside from waiting for Codex: Deathwatch to be fully released to public, I'd also probably wait for a few weeks for the meta to digest it to see if that's true, though.

[Deathwalker]

I sort of hope chapter approved lowers basic marines by 2 points per model, which will obviously affect a lot of stuff, including half the units in this codex. I also think any power armoured model should gain the trait to ignore one point of AP. So Ap-1 becomes AP-0 and AP-2 becomes AP-1 etc. That would make normal marines a bit more durable since a 3+ save isn't really that strong in 8th.

If you did that, you would have to address the same issue with Vehicle saves as well.

Not saying it's a bad idea, in fact I put forth a armour grading system in the "Should a bolter be the baseline" thread which would have a similar effect. 

[Ishagu]

I think we can safely say that this is now the best Primaris Marine codex, easily.

 

Could be the best Astartes book in general.

[dicebod]

I think we can safely say that this is now the best Primaris Marine codex, easily.

 

Could be the best Astartes book in general.

 

After 7th edition and the Index, who ever thought that would happen? 

[Vel'Cona]

I wouldn't jump the gun until the codex lands on the table.  Test games are fine but until we see how this stacks up, there's no sense in running off into hyperbole.  Getting excited to vow your shiny new Kill Teams for ETL, however, is completely fine :D

[Lemondish]

I wouldn't jump the gun until the codex lands on the table. Test games are fine but until we see how this stacks up, there's no sense in running off into hyperbole. Getting excited to vow your shiny new Kill Teams for ETL, however, is completely fine :D

Keep in mind that saying it's the best Astartes book doesn't really mean much given how weak they've all been ;)