Is our Chapter Tactic bad?

[domsto]

Hello fellow sons of the Lion.

 

As the Title says i am not sure about the Chapter Tactic.

On paper it looks really nice but it never come into play that much like other Capter Tactics.

Reroll 1s is easy to get with a Master, which you play in most cases because he is a solid HQ choice.

Also the fact that you have to remain stationary is for Space Marines a real pain, i always ends up moving around.

It also doesn't help Deathwing or Ravenwing units in any means.

Both are supposed to be the Mobil and aggressive part of the Army, so they have to move in most cases.

The Moral buff is nice but i never had a problem with Moral in the first place.

 

After all i think it would have been better if we got something else.

Maybe instead of just one Tactic 3 little Tactics. a Deathwing one, a Ravenwing one and a Greenwing one. Like the Dark Eldar got in their Codex.

 

What are you thougts on this?

Have you made better use of the Tactic as i did?

 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Despite being situational, it's not a bad Chapter tactic. Sometimes, some units will be out of a Master's range and sometimes you want to stay put and rapid fire. In those times the Tactic is golden.

I agree they won't benefit RW or DW much, but in occasions, even them will benefit.

I think we have a balanced Chapter tactic, that makes us think on how to use it best, rewarding those that will use it with thought, instead of being just a passive buff that can be used in any situation.

[Cpt_Reaper]

It frees up Masters so they don't have to babysit backfield units like Devastators, Predators and other long range big guns. Instead have a couple of Lieutenants to give re-rolls to wounds. Then you run your Masters in the front line with mobile units to give them the benefit of those To-Hit re-rolls.

 

Belial and Sammael should be leading the Deathwing and Ravenwing respectively as their rules are meant to work with their Companies. Throw in a Talormaster or TDA Interrogator-Chaplain for flavour.

[Trunkello]

Its the pain that faded for me since december. I was really sad that the 3 wings didnt get different tactics. My wish was a thematic one : greenwing: plasma weapons never gets hot on overcharge ( it would been op as hell with the +1dmg stratagem but i didnt know that we would get something like that), Ravenwing : can charge after advance, Deathwing: reroll hits after Deepstrike. None of them would have been too op but really thematic and usefull and on the same level as other chapters. Blood angels +1 attacks and strenghts with fnp? Gw really toned down the da codex compared to that. Really useful deathcompany tactics.

 

I rarely deploy units with more than 5 members so morale isnt really an issue for me too. It comes handy when u run a max squad ravenwing unit but rarely happens.

On the other hand the reroll 1s are not that bad. Yes a company master can give the same but when i play objectives and 5 primaris marines can hold an objective in cover on the other side of the map alone is really useful. They wont move so they get the benefit of reroll 1 and i dont have to put a 100+ points hq to babysit them.

 

Its a spilled milk to complain about it now. The tactic as the codex: not really bad, not really good either. Its a balanced one and the others should have been the same.

[sneakybamsen]

It frees up Masters so they don't have to babysit backfield units like Devastators, Predators and other long range big guns. Instead have a couple of Lieutenants to give re-rolls to wounds. Then you run your Masters in the front line with mobile units to give them the benefit of those To-Hit re-rolls.

 

Belial and Sammael should be leading the Deathwing and Ravenwing respectively as their rules are meant to work with their Companies. Throw in a Talormaster or TDA Interrogator-Chaplain for flavour.

 

Small correction here, if you haven't noticed it in the codex or forgot - it's only infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts getting the reroll when standing still, not vehicles. I'd wish our tanks would get it, but then our land raiders (godhammer especially) would be better than all other marine armies land raiders, as the tank would count as not having moved when firing heavy weapons due to power of the machine spirit, so you'd end up with reroll 1s on shooting heavy weapons with land raiders when from out chapter even when moving. That would make land raiders more interesting, but it wouldn't be as intented by GW or very fair that our land raiders should be better.

[BlackTriton]

I do like grim resolve as is. from a narrative point I think it weird how it's irrelevant to ravenwing and deathwing. from a rule point it seems to benefit devastator and dakka dread most which it weird to me.

I like to include lazcanon in my tac squad thanks to this rule. they can now block backfield and pack a punch by themselves.

In a more general way, I still don’t get why marines tactics don’t apply to everything, when it is the norm for all other codexes. 

[Brother Karael]

It does grant Greenwing armies the benefit of not needing to form a death blob as much and can have some tactical flexibility. 

[Berzul]

Grim Resolve is great. Don't you doubt it.

 

Makes backfield units deadly without having to sink 80+ points into a babysitting Master, freeing up points and HQ slots.

 

Devastators, Helblasters and Dreadnoughts, all benefit from this. In fact, one of my favourite formations is 2 Ven Dreads geared for long range (Twin Las and Twin Cannons), with a Techmarine and a Lieutenant. When they sit still they hit on 2+ rerrolling to hit and wound; and if I have to reposition, Wisdom of the Ancients keeps me rerrollig that turn for 1 CP. I've had better success with this over tanks, overall.

 

Also, yeah, your Tacticals or your Scouts that camp objectives also benefit from it. May take you a turn or two to get into position, but once you do, the Tactic becomes a huge benefit. Specially if you are usong scouts for Helfire Shells or Flakk Missiles.

 

It is a great tactic, that requires planning and strategy to use. In that sense, it is a FUN tactic, that you need to know how to use. Something that is very in line with the strategic and tactical nature of the Chapter.

 

What I will say is that Jink and Inner Circle (specially Inner Circle) were kind of a let down to me.

 

Jink is good, but a -1 to be hit made more sense to me than a 4++ save. Aren't we, you know, doing evasive maneuvers? Shouldn't that make us harder to be hit?

 

In any case, Inner Circle is to me a wasted special rule.

 

Fearless, ok. How many times have you failed a morale test with a 5-man squad on an 8+ Ld, amd ATSKNF? Seriously.

 

And, consideing cost and effectiveness, how often do you play 10 man squads of terminators ad a blob? Even if you do! Again. 8+ ld and ATSNKF.

 

Its fluffy to be fearless, but it is just soooooooo situational, it is borderline useless.

 

Then you have rerrolls against Fallen.

 

Assuming you are one lucky sob that gets to play people that use them often, or at all (in my entire city, across 3 large gaming clubs and groups, I havent seen or heard of someone using Fallen, ever), it is, again, very fluffy, yet extremely situational.

 

A lot of better rules could have worked here.

 

Make storm bolters count as pistols for close combat shooting, going back to tje Space Hulk-iness of our Terminators.

Make our weapons rerroll hit when we drop from deepstrike per 7th ed

Give us a move after dropping as per 7th ed

 

Just to name a few.

[march10k]

I don't know about the premise that you'll be fielding a master anyway, so the tactic ends up being redundant.  I see a lot of non-DA armies taking a master for the express purpose of babysitting hellblasters, so maybe you have it a bit backwards?  If I weren't fielding Azrael and Belial (yes, both, twinlinked is twinlinked!), I would probably rather have a bike librarian than any kind of master.  Being able to scoot on over and gut the BS of that supremacy armor (or whatever) is pretty awesome.  It is more useful for greenwing than for the 1st and 2nd companies, but it's a chapter tactic that, theoretically, every unit in your army can use every single turn.  That's pretty cool.  There are other chapter tactics that do more when they work, but they're situational enough that you'll end up using them 3-4x a game, max, versus potentially a couple dozen times for us.

 

 

 

how often do you play 10 man squads of terminators ad a blob?
 

 

~WEG~

[Berzul]

Ok, maybe some times. We all have tried lt. but isn't it more the exception than the rule?

 

I once had 10 charge Abaddon, landed no wounds, then lost 7 guys. Was thankfull for fearless that day. As opposed to the other 364 days of the year.

[march10k]

Okay, maybe I should be more explicit.  I field ten tactical terminators with Belial every single game.  The fun factor is just off the charts. 

 

Once I get my 12 inceptors painted, dropping 12 inceptors and 11 terminators on turn two (and not all in the same spot) is going to cause all sorts of target priority headaches AND make it harder for the enemy to just run away from the terminators after they land and have to walk everywhere.  At that point, the blob of ten terminators will be a lot more competitive on top of being fun.

[Berzul]

Ok so, lets put it this way.

 

Is having no terminators run off the board due to Inner Circle, over having only one running due to Grim Resolve, really that big of a deal?

 

I mean, ok, for someone who plays them all the time this way, sure. The tactic looks good at first, but again, its Ld8, with ATSNKF, and Grim Resolve. You would need to lose 3 or more in a single turn. Even then, it would require 2 consecutive rolls of 6 to have 1 guy run. Even then, your maimum number of running models is 1 anyway.

 

So, in the end, I still feel like this "Deathwing Tactic" is pretty much fluffy, but (borderline) useless/pointless.

 

You could have given them fearless as a general special rule, and have Inner Circle grant something actually useful, and it would not have been imbalanced at all. Again, fearless only means that, when fielding 10 guys (which not everyone does, and not all the time), if you loose 3 or more a turn (which doesn't always happen), and fail two consecutive leadership rolls (which requires quite some bad luck), you lose 0 guys over 1 guy.

 

Yeah its nice to have. But, is it a game changer? Hardly.

 

I'd much rather have Rerrolls or Movement upon deepstriking, for instance, than fearless.

[march10k]

~le sigh~ 

 

I wasn't arguing the merits of the inner circle rule, I was just addressing your rhetorical question about how often ten man terminator squads get fielded. 

 

For me, it's 100% of the time.  And I've never had inner circle save a single model.

[Berzul]

Oh, no I wasn't trying to ague against you.

I was just taking your comment to address the fact that the tactic is not that good (in my opinion) even when using squads of 10.

 

I didn't mean more than that.

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

Small correction here...

 

My bad. I don't actually run Predators and my Land Raider is usually* in my front line with my Master.

 

^{*if it isn't dead turn 1}

 

 

Is having no terminators run off the board due to Inner Circle, over having only one running due to Grim Resolve, really that big of a deal?

 

 

Terminators are more expensive than a Tactical Marine as well as have better armour and two wounds. If you have 1 Terminator run due to a failed morale test then you've lost the equivalent to two models in most other non-primaris squads. The only time I'd want Terminators to leave the board are because they died in combat, not from running away. Running Terminators negate their two wounds.

[Berzul]

 

 

Is having no terminators run off the board due to Inner Circle, over having only one running due to Grim Resolve, really that big of a deal?

 

Terminators are more expensive than a Tactical Marine as well as have better armour and two wounds. If you have 1 Terminator run due to a failed morale test then you've lost the equivalent to two models in most other non-primaris squads. The only time I'd want Terminators to leave the board are because they died in combat, not from running away. Running Terminators negate their two wounds.

 

 

I am not saying that having a terminator gone isn't a big deal.

 

What I am saying is that Inner Circle is a poor "Chapter Tactic" for the Deathwing.

 

Again, with a Leadership of 8+, And They Shall Not Know Fear, and Grim Resolve, you have a squad that

 

1) Usually and mostly (but in no way always) will be of about 5 models + a Character to buff them

2) Can only lose 1 model to morale in even the worse scenarios

3) Needs to lose at least 3 models a turn to even have to roll (very unlikely in a 5 model squad, more possible in a 10 model squad, but, again, its far more common to field them at 5 -man sizes than 10-man sizes)

4) Rerrolls that roll if it fails it.

 

In that sense, Inner Circle only grants you the safety that, if you decide to play a squad of more than 5 guys, and you lose 3 or more in a turn, should you fail your morale roll twice, and decide not to use insane bravery, then you will not lose the 1 model you would lose otherwise.

 

I seriously would rather have gotten rerrolls on a drop (would have tied great with Deathwing Assault), a move action after the drop (would make us more capable of fielding knights in a deep strike way), having them not have a -1 to hit with heavy weapons (that is just generaly useful, specially for a squad that needs to be moving constantly, due to its low movement value), or any other number of rules.

 

If you wanted to make them even better at morale, you could have, for instance, made insane bravery cost only 1 CP instead of 2 CP when used on a unit with the Keyword Deathwing.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Alright, yeah I get where you are coming from now.

 

It seems to me that Deathwing Assault is, for lack of a better term, wrong.

 

Deathwing squads should get to shoot upon deepstrike with a -1 to hit, with the Deathwing Assault Stratagem providing re-rolls to a single Deathwing squad.

 

That's how I'd do it. Of course I am exceedingly tired and full of caffeine right now so my judgement may be compromised.

[march10k]

Deathwing squads should get to shoot upon deepstrike with a -1 to hit, with the Deathwing Assault Stratagem providing re-rolls to a single Deathwing squad.

 

 

Oh...it took a minute to understand. You mean they should get to shoot for free in the movement phase on deepstrike, but with a -1? And the stratagem gives the reroll?  That would be fair, but I'd still take Belial to give the rerolls for free, and to have the rerolls everywhere, all the time.  Maybe if the stratagem just removed the -1 penalty?  That would be worth paying for with or without Belial. 

[Berzul]

I'd have them being able to shoot when landing, with a -1 to hit, with a Stratagem at 1CP flat for rerrolls of 1 on the drop. Considering WotA gives an aura of 1 to hit rerrolls around a dread, giving it to them for one phase in the game at all at 1CP doesnt seem that cheap to me.

 

Honestly, many times I even forget what Inner Circle does.

 

Before a battle I always go through my stratagem cards, taking out any card that I can not, or will not, use. I always run into the one that gives a character or vehicle inner circle, and I ALWAYS have had to go to the codex and actually look up what it does to decide if I should keep it.

 

I have never, ever, in any game this edition, used this special rule.

[Isual]

The only use for the stratagem is the combination with Belial for full re-rolls as it gives deathwing along with inner circle.

[JJD]

The only use for the stratagem is the combination with Belial for full re-rolls as it gives deathwing along with inner circle.

There’s an Azrael for that.

[Berzul]

 

The only use for the stratagem is the combination with Belial for full re-rolls as it gives deathwing along with inner circle.

There’s an Azrael for that.

 

 

[ValourousHeart]

On paper it looks really nice but it never come into play that much like other Capter Tactics.

 

Despite being situational, it's not a bad Chapter tactic. 

 

I don't think it is appropriate to feed the delusion that certain chapter tactics are situational and others are not.  All chapter tactics are situational... because all are set up in the format "If CONDITION x, then do RESPONSE y"

 

Now you might perceive that some conditions are more likely than others, but it all really depends upon crafting your list to better ensure that a certain condition happens more often.

 

If you are not at least making an attempt to ensure that a specific chapter tactic condition is encouraged, then I suggest you take the list you want to play and compare what conditions are most likely then find a chapter tactic that matches and start playing your army with those rules.

 

I say that because it should be obvious that you (or anyone) tends to have a preferred play style, and you (they) should embrace that.  Even if the play style doesn't line up with the lore that you like best.

 

This has happened in previous editions.  Plenty of RW players in the past preferred the White Scar play style.  But many were obstinate and refused to play anything but under DA rules, until they quit the hobby because they didn't like the rules.

 

Don't ruin your enjoyment of the game because GW has a different idea about how whatever works than you do.  In your mind, they can still be DA, even if on paper they are a different chapter.

 

You are painting the models the way you want them to look... so play the game the way that you want to play.

[SickSix]

Reading this discussion has opened my eyes as to why some people hate special characters.

 

Their rules make them auto-include for a lot of people which can be very narrative breaking.

 

Honestly I thought Grim Resolved looked nice and balanced on paper. I was fine with it not benefiting 1st and 2nd companies becuase they get their own special stuff anyways, and I think they compose too much of DA armies anyways.

[Aothaine]

I think the chapter tactic is amazing! It is so good for how space marines play. The fact that you have RW and DW are just added bonuses to play your army a little differently than most. But as far as Green Wing and Primaris go this chapter tactic is boss. 

 

It lets you field max size squads of Intercessors with you only ever being able to lose one model do to morale. It makes them SO much better at holding objectives. Then you get the ability to reroll 1s if you don't move. Couple that with some Aggressors and you are laying people low. I'm still very tempted to go Dark Angels. With the ability to reroll 1s and be max size squads you can spread out forcing assault armies to spread out. 

 

Greenwing is in boys and girls.