Leviathan Dreadnoughts - Tactics and builds

[Captain Idaho]

My gaming group is moving into the "centrepiece model" position and I have Guilliman of course (on the painting station) so I need a large model to bust chops and look good in the team photo. I don't want a Knight and a Land Raider is cool and all but so last year.

 

I'm toying with the Leviathan since my local terran based opponents don't mind playing it, particularly in larger games. Indeed, one of my best friends is getting one for his Death Guard - and I want one!

 

So without wasting your time further, let's discuss playing with a Leviathan Dreadnought in an Ultramarines army.

 

***

 

Loadouts?

 

I'm thinking the Grav Flux Bombard. It has a good rate of fire against all targets and is pretty nasty when it hits. Anything large will absolutely hate it! It's ultra-modern seeming too so I think it fits the character of the Ultramarines right now who are being rearmed by Guilliman.

 

I was thinking for the 2nd weapon I'd have to go with a 2nd Grav Flux Bombard eh. Double the power and it allows me to point it at 2 separate targets and say "no".

 

I'd like a claw but doesn't it lose an attack down to 3 if it has just the one? That's just too low. Anything lower than 4 is a no go for me on a Dreadnought.

 

What are people's thoughts on this and other issues and preferences for the Leviathan?

[Cruor Vault]

The Grav Bombard is really awesome when it drops 15 damage on a vehicle and flat out kills it, but more often than not you just wind up killing 1 or 2 space marines super dead with it.  The variable number of shots makes this weapon too hit or miss for me, and it's massive overkill against things like gaunts or cultists.  

 

I switched over to double Stormcannon Array and I can't ever think I would go back.   20 Autocannon shots with -2AP is too good to pass up.

[UnkyHamHam]

I just ordered one, and the plan is to go double Storm Cannon Arrays. I really love the idea behind it, but I do feel like I'll be missing out on a lot of the Leviathan's potential without giving him a close combat arm.

 

Are close combat arms worth it on them? I really wish I could trade out the heavy flamers, but at least it will be hard to tarpit him.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think the close combat arms are worth it on them I'm afraid.

 

The Grav bombard looks so much more powerful upon closer inspection than first appears. D3 shots for every 5 models is amazing. A unit of 5 Primaris suffer 2D3 shots per cannon, which can do some damage.

 

I suppose it is still out matched by the Storm cannon though. Hard to give up that.

[Kallas]

I suppose it is still out matched by the Storm cannon though. Hard to give up that.

Stats time!

 

Assuming moving (considering both weapons are reasonably short ranged) and no cover.

 

GFB: Grav-flux Bombard (x=2, as the average of d3)

SCA: Stormcannon Array

FS: Failed Saves

 

Obviously, double the below numbers for a second arm.

 

vs MEQs:

GFB: x*0.66*0.833= 1.1fs per 5

SCA: 10*0.66*0.66*0.66= 2.9fs

SCA better vs less than 10-strong units.

 

vs GEQs:

GFB: x*0.66*0.833= 1.1fs per 5

SCA: 10*0.66*0.833= 5.5fs

SCA better vs less than 20-strong units.

 

vs Orks (inc. Painboy):

GFB: x*0.66*0.833*0.972= 1.1fs per 5

SCA: 10*0.66*0.66*0.972= 4.2

SCA better vs less than 20-strong units;

 

vs Predators (T7, Sv3+):

GFB: 2*0.66*0.66*5= 4.4 damage

SCA: 10*0.66*0.5*0.5*2= 4.3 damage

 

vs Leman Russ (T8, Sv3+):

GFB: 2*0.66*0.66*5= 4.4 damage

SCA: 10*0.66*0.33*0.66*2= 2.9 damage

 

vs Stormraven (T7, Sv3+, -1 Hit):

GFB: 2*0.5*0.66*5= 3.3 damage

SCA: 10*0.5*0.5*0.66*2= 3.3 damage

 

 

Overall the Stormcannon Array seems to be the more reliable option. Against anything but the largest units it'll put out more hurt; against medium/light vehicles it'll put reliable damage on them; against heavy armour it'll generally push some through; and against negative hit modified armour it'll more reliably cause some damage; and against Invulnerable saves (eg, Knights, Storm Shields, Shield Drones, etc) the extra AP of the GFB becomes irrelevant.

 

Grav-flux Bombard is better against big blobs of troops (Ork Boys, Cultists, etc), but that's generally still a losing proposition (as those are relatively low value targets, considering the Leviathan's own cost and the GFB's actual output even against those targets).

 

Plus the Stormcannon Arrays look :cuss awesome!

[Captain Idaho]

I don't want to doubt your math (it hurts my head just looking at it) but it's impossible for the Grav Flux Bombard to do less than 5 damage a time against a vehicle. A Predator can't suffer 4.4 wounds or whatever.

 

I might go for the Storm Cannon Array just because it's cheaper and looks good. But the 2D3 shots for the Cylonnic Melta Lance will hurt it's targets..

 

The D3 shots of the GFB put me off as 1 shot isn't reliable and I always roll 1s!

[Kallas]

I don't want to doubt your math (it hurts my head just looking at it) but it's impossible for the Grav Flux Bombard to do less than 5 damage a time against a vehicle. A Predator can't suffer 4.4 wounds or whatever.

It's to do with probability, essentially. Less than 5D (or 2D for the SCA) means that the GFB is getting less than 1 failed save through (although that could be anywhere between 0.1fs and 0.99fs), on average. Maybe it would've been clearer to just have put failed saves instead of damage, although the GFB gets a bonus to damage vs vehicles which this represents.

 

As always with statistics, it's just an average. It's not telling you that the GFB will never do worthwhile work, just that on average the SCA is more of an all rounder.

[PeteySödes]

I have one with swappable X2 GFB and X2 SCA and i feel like the SCA is the meat while the GFB is the dessert...

 

The SCA is more reliable vs. a wide range of units and the GFB can be just a tad to swingy for my taste in a competitive game. It is super fun though and i love using it.

 

As far as the melee options are concerned I agree with the good Captain. The 4 attacks (3 if you just have one arm) is super meh I think for anything but tank hunting and won't save you from a tar bit. This guy i feel like is meant to be a gun platform if nothing else other than the fact that the ranged option are just soooo tasty.

[Captain Idaho]

Would be nice to take it as a line breaker to match it's fluff.

[Cruor Vault]

I should also note that the Leviathan is comically hard to kill.  Especially if you run Tigurius near it for his "Master of Prescience" bonus. 

 

If you can Stack Might of Heroes and Psychic Fortress as well, you wind up with a monstrous -1 to be hit, T9 2+/4++/4+++ 14W. 

 

Throw on Armor of Contempt and it can literally absorb an entire armies' worth of firepower and come out firing!

[Joukernaut]

Don’t forget to advance it turn one and use it’s smoke launchers if you plan to linebreak it.

This coupled with the above biffs will make sure your opponent unloads all his weapons to try to remove it. Then heal it up with a techmarine and charge in withe the cyclonic meltalance and a fist(it does hurt vehicles bigtime).

Or just as fun, load it up with the double gravflux, rush it forward every turn and unload furious amounts of shots AND 2 heavy flamers on mobs. This dreadnought is hard to tarpit due to ultramarines rule, just make sure it’s not surrounded.

I usually keep the techmarine nearby for either an extra flamer on overwatch or heroic intervention on mobs that wish to surround it.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes my Techmarine will proudly stand by it. Many thanks for tip.

 

I've decided to order 4 arms... 2 Storm Cannon Arrays and a Cyclonic Melta Lance and Claw so I can mix it up. Future proofing somewhat too since GW will eventually realise a basic Dreadnought gets 4 attacks when armed with Twin Lascannon and Missile Launcher!

[SillyDreadnought]

I run mine with the Gravy Flux Bombard and the siege drill. No real performance reason behind it, it just looks badass with that loadout. I'm probably going to put on the missile launcher the kit comes with, now that it can take 3 HK missiles as well.

 

When I've fielded it, I've never found the Gravy Bombard to be underwhelming. Access to Adept of the Codex and using a command reroll really makes the D3 shots more reliable against single targets.

[Jolemai]

Yes my Techmarine will proudly stand by it. Many thanks for tip.

 

 

My Vindicare and Scouts thank you for their squishy targets ;)

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that is a slight problem. Though taking the Leviathan in itself would soften the blow somewhat there.

[justicarius6]

I have the Grav-Flux and a Stormcannon on mine, with a claw as backup if I really feel the need to swap out. In the two battles it played it's done well, but for different reasons:

 

1st was against necrons and I flew it in (pre-FAQ nerf) with a captain and lt. in a stormraven. Both guns did great damage, nuking my opponents warriors and destroyer packs even though I totally forgot to use the heavy flamers!

 

2nd game against World Eaters it absorbed a ton of firepower 1st turn, 2 Shooty-brutes and a Sicaran and only "just" went down on the final shot. It did allow my devastators and Sicaran Venator a full turn of un-molestation to really lay down the hurt in my go.

[SickSix]

Yeah that is a slight problem. Though taking the Leviathan in itself would soften the blow somewhat there.

You could run a techmarine on bike from the index right?

[Jolemai]

Assuming Battlescribe has the points correct, you're looking at well over 300 points (north of 400 if you take a Lucius Pod) for one model. I just can't see how to fit it into my force(s) as it stands.

 

How are you all going to shoehorn one in?

[Captain Idaho]

I'll usually save it for larger games. Or the odd game replacing my Contemptor and some other stuff.