Anyone Feel Like Theres Missing Units?

[BloodWolves]

Hey all, just reviewed the Deathwatch Codex.. just kinda bummed out that they dont have things like Ancients or normal Apothecaries or techmarines. Plus I always imagined that if this was the best of the best.. why dont they have access to most/ if not all vehicles in the Astartes?

I also wish they could have a unit of troops of Black Shield Scouts.

Scouts that displayed good talent but failed out due to something so they joined as a black shield scout. I dont know.. maybe thats kinda stupid?

Sorry.. not much of a question.. more of a rant.

[Marshal van Trapp]

I agree that it feels like a lack of units in the codex. Especially with regards to techmarines since they were always a big part of the deathwatch. You need someone to upkeep your vehicles!

 

As a ref to scouts, with the exception of space wolves, scouts are astartes in training. In all known chapters if you fail to become a full astartes you get turning into a servitor

[novembermike]

As a ref to scouts, with the exception of space wolves, scouts are astartes in training. In all known chapters if you fail to become a full astartes you get turning into a servitor

This is true, but canonically Deathwatch have full marines that wear special scout armor. They have no initiates, but they have scouts.

[Finkmilkana]

Well, it’s annoying, but there is a simple reason for the missing units: if deathwatch had better troops AND all/most the other stuff, why would anyone still play normal marines? It has nothing really to do with fluff. Though I dimly remember them claiming in 7th that the reason DW don’t have techmaries as a unit is that all the techmarines are busy flying the blackstars and fixing the high maintenance high end gear. But that always seemed more tacked on than anything.

[BloodWolves]

Well I think to balance it.. maybe a point increase to field them if its like say like a Talonmaster or something. Deathwatch is designed after special forces/ ops. Spec Ops rarely have restrictions on gear and load outs. Most spec ops units do have Lieutenants.. as another thing missing. And well I mean if its any chapter that should be ranked in the top 10.. it should be the best of the best right? Its just odd that in canon and in books.. these guys are historically amazing, rarely suffering from defeat. Yet on tabletop, there's so many restrictions and they play like glass. I feel like the Deathwatch should be written to be like characters from Battlefield: Bad Company. It just makes more sense to have them as a rag tag unit that made it as space marines but didnt fit in so they found the Deathwatch (Honorable Discharge vs a black shield).

Im sorry.. i know im probably sounding sour and could just pick a different chapter or write up my own home brew Chapter.

[Lysere]

I can understand not having the techmarine since at the size of most 40k games they would be the ones in the vehicles but the fact that you can take a primaris apothecary but not a normal one is very annoying.

 

Also no unique characters or anything to make the deathwatch feel more unique. I know some of that stuff was fantasy flights creation with the deathwatch rpg but they could've added some of that flavor.

[Xisor]

Personally, and until... next edition, I'm going to tout the idea that you just use the various faction's SM entries, switch the Chapter keyword & special rules to DW ones.

 

If you're worried about SIA, try to avoid bolt weapons. :)

 

(Techmarines with grav/plasma are way cooler.)

 

It's annoying, but we can assume/assert for tournaments/formal games that those options are inefficient.

 

For everything else: pfft. Folks are usually fine.

 

(I might even go wild and make elaborate crayon-based unit sheets for them, staple them into the Codex and insist that "that's obviously what GW intended, it was just a typo. You don't understand them like I do. Don't be so hard, they're *trying their best*.")

[BloodWolves]

Xisor I like your thinking! Plus Frag Cannons. Theyre just so bad ass that it sucks that its only available to the DW.. why would you want ti be any other Chapter. Maybe we could find some blank "Datasheets" and fill them with Deathwatch keywords and be like.. Your Deathwatch codex is Fake News.

I dont really see myself as being a competitive player but i mean if you want to try and play a game.. you might have to buy a whole new army.

[FenrirTheFeisty]

Interesting thoughts. But i have to disagree in the scouts part. If you look thru the SpaceMarine lore the scouts are initates, they are learning and their body is still taking to the surgerys and new organs added to their body. Also the psycho conditioning is still taking place while serving in the scout company. So it dosnt fit with the DW lore at all. As marines sent to DW have shown exceptional skill in killing certain type of xenos life form. They are sent to the DW to share the methodology and hone it even further and finally bring it back to the chapter so that they can also benefit from the knowledge. They are the TOP Guns not just fresh out of flight school. 

Yes there are exceptional scouts, Telion for excample. But to say that scouts who dont become battlebrothers go to DeathWatch goes against all of the lore and the theme of the army.

 

You are saying that the army has so many restrictions and arent bad ass enough but you forget that its the only army that can kit out its kill teams however you want giving you the feel that each member is a champion in its own right and can choose his own tool for making war not that everyone has to have boltpistol/chainsword or boltgun. What does adding scouts add to that equation? just cheap bodies i feel.

TechMarines would be nice and also landspeeders but for the rest of the SM codex, the regular chapters can keep the rest. Restrictions make the army interresting and gives it flavor. othervise it would be another codex chapter just with black armor and a silver arm.

[Claws and Effect]

As a ref to scouts, with the exception of space wolves, scouts are astartes in training. In all known chapters if you fail to become a full astartes you get turning into a servitor

Not all of them. Some of them become Chapter serfs instead. You only get turned into a servitor if there is a problem with the geneseed or you fail in such a way that you dishonor yourself or the Chapter.

[Rikev]

Not all chapters use Scouts as initiates. Space Wolves use veterans, Angels of Wrath (Are they canon?) use Arkangel Squads out of necessity and the Deathwatch use whatever is appropriate for the mission, including scout armour. I believe some of the RPGs describe Deathwatch Scouts in more detail with more kit to allow them to operate behind enemy lines for extended periods.

[Xisor]

Fenrir, I get what you're saying. I think the key point is, it's not "Deathwatch Scouts" as much as... "Deathwatch Veterans wearing Scout Carapace doing that job".

 

There's precedent inasmuch as, for example, the novella of "Assault on Black Reach" - Sicarius, faced with a job that needs scouts but there are no 10th Company reinforcements, orders one of his 2nd Company tactical squads to 'suit up' in Scout Carapace armour.

 

I imagine that sort of thing happens all the time.

 

"2nd Company, 3rd Squad, fetch your jump packs - we need extra assault marines fpr this battle!"

 

But for Deathwatch it's surely even more flexible: Terminator armour one day, scout Carapace with a Lascannon the next, Predator driver tomorrow!

[Vel'Cona]

As Finkmilkana said, this is probably more a matter of balancing the various and sundry Astartes codexes, rather than a nod to the background.  The fact that DW are missing some HQs/codex options is likely just to give the C: SM players something they can "own", alongside their Chapter Tactics and characters.  Honestly, there's enough variety with the Primaris units coming in to make a Watch Company that meets any need, so taking a few concessions is to be expected (and we're doing much better than the mess we had in 7th).

[Lemondish]

Honestly was wishing they'd add access to the other Librarian disciplines, maybe even the dreadnought.

[Claws and Effect]

Honestly was wishing they'd add access to the other Librarian disciplines, maybe even the dreadnought.

I was hoping Deathwatch would get their own psychic powers to reflect their more specialized nature.

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

Honestly was wishing they'd add access to the other Librarian disciplines, maybe even the dreadnought.

I was hoping Deathwatch would get their own psychic powers to reflect their more specialized nature.

I was saddened to learn they didn't get a new discipline, as well.

[justicarius6]

As Finkmilkana said, this is probably more a matter of balancing the various and sundry Astartes codexes, rather than a nod to the background. The fact that DW are missing some HQs/codex options is likely just to give the C: SM players something they can "own", alongside their Chapter Tactics and characters. Honestly, there's enough variety with the Primaris units coming in to make a Watch Company that meets any need, so taking a few concessions is to be expected (and we're doing much better than the mess we had in 7th).

Yeah leave us C:SM players are simply revelling in our unique Centurion suits.... :P

[BloodWolves]

But see that's the thing.. so a Librarian Dreadnought cant exist in the Deathwatch? Or a frag cannon option for the dreadnought.. if they have an infantry version? I just think they could of spent more time working on the codex a bit more. I still believe that if they are the top tier chapter of the space marines that they should be able to acquire whatever achieves the mission.. whether it be scouts, stormtalons, a Baal Predator, Interrogator Chaplain and to go as far as really most characters because they can decide to take up a time in the watch.. such as when Chaplain Cassius did.

[BloodWolves]

And in regards to "why wouldnt anyone else play any other chapter" isnt it the same as why do people play the one OP version of Eldar vs the other ones? *sorry, not well versed in the xenos

[Brother Captain Ed]

And in regards to "why wouldnt anyone else play any other chapter" isnt it the same as why do people play the one OP version of Eldar vs the other ones? *sorry, not well versed in the xenos

Well...they don't play the other ones. So, yeah, it's a valid concern.

[ashc]

The only thing I think is they could have sold me more kits :P

 

But I agree that they can't give us everything the marine book has, we would just be marines+1 then.

[Vel'Cona]

The only thing I think is they could have sold me more kits

 

But I agree that they can't give us everything the marine book has, we would just be marines+1 then.

 

Right on!  Just to reiterate, the variety in this book is actually rather deep compared to, say, Custodes, so Watch Captains in 8th are actually spoiled for choice at this point.  I like that we have to adapt to some extent with the tools at hand, and honestly with the breadth of models available if a Deathwatch player can't handle a threat I feel it's more a matter of poor army build/deployment than an inherent issue in the codex.

[Lemondish]

 

The only thing I think is they could have sold me more kits

 

But I agree that they can't give us everything the marine book has, we would just be marines+1 then.

 

Right on!  Just to reiterate, the variety in this book is actually rather deep compared to, say, Custodes, so Watch Captains in 8th are actually spoiled for choice at this point.  I like that we have to adapt to some extent with the tools at hand, and honestly with the breadth of models available if a Deathwatch player can't handle a threat I feel it's more a matter of poor army build/deployment than an inherent issue in the codex.

 

 

The biggest issues with DW are things that can't be solved with their flexibility, which means they have some of the same issues as Custodes. They are however dealt with by allying in some Guard or another Chapter (just like Custodes). Simply put, DW lacks effective screens. That means any psyker will cause direct harm to your 20-50 ppm specialists instead of dropping rocks (or whatever ridiculous thing you imagine smite to be) onto the poor bastards screening you. I'm not talking smite spam, either - two farseers can really hurt a DW army if not properly screened. In addition, with such small numbers, DW can't really zone out deep strikers on their own. Even though they come on turn 2 now, deep strike plasma will still happen. Without a screen your kill teams will be taking rapid fire plasma to the face - ouch!

[Xisor]

For a game that's hugely oriented this edition (and the current edition of AoS) around enabling narrative play, I don't think the arguments of 'this Codex is actually quite powerful' hold up.

 

(If that's the argument, to sell models all it has to do is give them a similar/marginal edge to whatever's currently considered powerful. Not even 'Marines +1', but 't+1' - it's an incremental thing, that's close to but not entirely disjoint from an evolving meta. Simply put: with that argument, as long as they don't break the progression, then whatever they produce and whatever they include is definitively 'good enough'.)

 

From my perspective, which comes from an enjoyment of lore and modelling and kitbashing and narrative, a huge part of the attraction of Deathwatch comes from... juxtaposition. "A Dark Angel *and* a Space Wolf!" is, to some extent, everyone's first thought. (Or a similar one.)

 

But in that regard, Deathwatch are literally, Space Marines +1. Not just One Chapter, but all Chapters.

 

From there, I think the balance is ensuring that it's heavily elite, but in an ad-hoc way. The Veterans Kit allows that, to an extent, but I think they've missed a trick by not looking at the remaining specialists of the Marines.

 

-----

 

What's Actually Missing?

 

I fiddled about with the permutations, and if you ignore tanks/non-Dreadnought-vehicles, then I think you get a good answer by going into a 2x2 table.

 

On one axis:

Mk II-VIII Assault

Mk II-VIII Normal

Mk X Primaris

Mk X-G Gravis

Mk X-R Reiver

Mk X-O Inceptor

TDA Indomitus

TDA Cataphractii

TDA Tartaros

Bike

Scout

Scout Bike

Centurion Armour

Dreadnought - Normal

Dreadnought - Redemptor

Dreadnought - Contemptor

 

And then each possible model has a configuration (and associated stat line/special rules):

Watch Master

Captain

Librarian

Chaplain

Techmarine

Apothecary

Lieutenant

Keeper Champion

Keeper Ancient

Keeper Honour Guard (Command Squad)

Veteran.

 

So the Combination Veteran+Mk X is a Primaris marine (Hellblaster or Intercessor), who can be armed with anything that's suitable for that armour. (Personally, I think they missed a trick by not just saying 'anything for anything', and cutting out a *huge* amount of crap by making all DW Boltguns/rifles/pistols 'Special Issue' with Ammo on top.)

 

Any of the cells on that table would then be viable for a 'data sheet', but DW is sufficiently complicated, it's not like they saved anyone any great time by curtailing some (but not all) of the options.

 

----

 

Hell, they could even pick it apart into whatever little rules they please. E.g.

 

Mk II-VIII Assault - Mv becomes 12"

Mk II-VIII Normal - standard profile

Mk X Primaris - +1 Wound, +1 Attack

TDA Indomitus - -1" Mv, +1 Wound, 2+ Save, 5++, Some Special Rules

TDA Cataphractii - -2" Mv, +1 Wound, 2+ Save, 4++, Some Special Rules

etc

 

----

 

For me, at the moment, it looks half-baked. It may well provide what you need (wargames-nutritionally), and I might even grow to love it (I'm certainly looking forward to trying it out!), but my vague sadness for DW not being DW is quite profound.

[Vel'Cona]

For me, at the moment, it looks half-baked. It may well provide what you need (wargames-nutritionally), and I might even grow to love it (I'm certainly looking forward to trying it out!), but my vague sadness for DW not being DW is quite profound.

 

To me, it sounds like you want to "have you cake and eat it too" as far as this codex is concerned.  You've put a lot of thought into why things should be in the list without enjoying what's there and figuring out how to get what you want from the list.  I'm not saying you shouldn't pine for units/options/rules that you feel are unjustly or unreasonably absent, but perhaps focus on what's there to get what you want from the codex.  I find that, taken as a whole, the DW codex is already a large entity with tons of flexibility and plenty of unit representation, and where that falls through can be bolstered with allied detachments or clever conversions.  In fact, the latter is one of the best reasons to enjoy DW in my personal opinion, if not purely for arbitrary rules nods.