Anyone Feel Like Theres Missing Units?

[Tarquin Hart]

The list of units & stuff that Vanilla Marines get that which Deathwatch doesn't is MASSIVE, so I don't think stealing their uniqueness is a valid concern. They could have at least given Deathwatch units which have commonly appeared in Deathwatch fluff/lore/novels and were playable Deathwatch Characters in the RPG without cutting into the flavor of stuff that Vanilla Marines fields that the Deathwatch doesn't. 

 

Not having Lieutenants makes sense, because their buff is redundant with the army wide Tactic, and it could be argued that the command structure of Deathwatch is different than traditional chapters.

 

But that lack of Techpriests and Vanilla Apothecaries is just downright baffling and insulting. Techpriest in particular have been featured heavily in novels/stories about the Deathwatch, to the point I would have considered them an ICONIC unit of the Deathwatch... their exclusion is akin to having a Dark Angels codex without Chaplains. 

 

The lack of normal Apothecaries feels like a major oversight, clearly they don't have a problem with giving the Deathwatch the Apothecaries special rule, as they gave us the Primaris version... to then leave out the vanilla counter part literally makes no sense. from a balance standpoint the only reason to do this is to It hinders our ability to transport Apothecaries with our Killteams... which is actually really bad from the standpoint of army cohesion. With the low model count we could really use that healing, they clearly are okay with giving it to us... so why make it so difficult for us to keep the healer with his squad? Especially when... again... Deathwatch Apothecaries were a regular part of the lore & fiction that surrounds that army... you see them operating as part of squads in quite a few novels, and you could play as one as one of the basic class choices in the RPG... 

 

For Thrones Sake, they JUST released a comic book which features a Sanguinary Priest in a Deathwatch Killteam...

 

Deathwatch Scouts are the last unit I would have liked to have seen, cause again... from a Lore standpoint there is some major precedence for elite stealth/sniper squads, akin to the Wolf Scouts. In Dawn of War 2 they made of a big deal of the fact the Scout was Deathwatch Veteran, (it was a major plot point that that's why he knew about Tyranids.) and while some of that series may be questionable in terms of canon, it's foolish to just disregard the section of you fan base that is going to associate Deathwatch with sneaky scout units... especially given their special forces feel from the novels also features them sniping with stalker bolt riffles and training for stealth operations. Also it could fill a MUCH needed niche of slightly cheaper troops (or heck even Fast Attack/Elites if you don't want them to ob sec), Just give them a veteran stat line (i.e as if the whole squad were Scout Sergeants, maybe force them to wear cammo cloaks) raise the points a little to reflect that, with the cost of SIA based weapons you have troops that cost about as much or more than a Tactical Marine, but you get a fair trade off for that cost and they are still a less expensive option than your other troop choices. 

 

While it would be cool to be able to include a Scout in a kill team for "Concealed Positions" type deployment, I could see how that could be Over Powered, so I think they would have to remain in their own separate squad.

[ashc]

The reason there is no minimarine apothecary is because you can't buy one individually in a kit of its own. Yes, it's in the command squad box, but death watch can't field those guys either.

 

A lot of the unit choices here really are due to model boxed set limitations more than anything else - GW have taken the stance that for a model to have a data sheet it must be sold clearly and if needed, individually.

 

I'm bummed at lack of techmarines too but I'm going to get some of the classic metals and include them in squads. Why no techmarines? - well probably only because it's a finecast kit now with no interchangeable shoulder pads like the primaris apothecary.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Wait, I just thought of something... all the newer plastic special characters (primaris characters, librarians, captains) all have molded on right shoulder pads and removable left shoulder pads... did-did they do that on purpose with deathwatch in mind?! If so kudos to them!

[Lemondish]

Wait, I just thought of something... all the newer plastic special characters (primaris characters, librarians, captains) all have molded on right shoulder pads and removable left shoulder pads... did-did they do that on purpose with deathwatch in mind?! If so kudos to them!

That's why I have a ton of them. Picked up a captain and librarian at a local sale. Going to DW 'em up, even if they won't be used super competitively.

[Tarquin Hart]

 ashc, thanks for the explanation, I was figuring it had something to do with the models themselves as literally nothing else made sense.

 

Still seems kinda like a cop out... at a glance, the only thing I see in the command squad that we couldn't just use to make killteam Veterans with is the banner & Vanilla Marines can take Apothecary solo even though they aren't sold solo. If they MUST be sold in fieldable units, combo it up like the 10 man killteam are and sell as 9 man killteam plus Apothecary.

 

Another option is that Clearly Deathwatch Sanguinary Priests are a thing (after all one is being featured in the Deathwatch comic released about the same time as the codex), So I feel they could have used that model if it HAD to be solo. (BA Sanguinary Novitiate is pretty much a normal Apothecary) if they wanted to insist on a solo model. (As things stand, it's a cooler model anyway so I've been thinking about using one to 'count as' a primaris Apothecary.)

 

and Does the Techmarine really NEED to fit a deathwatch shoulderpad to be painted as a Deathwatch model? If that was really the concern, Deathwatch release would have been an excellent time to give the Techmarine a new plastic model that could have also been used by Vanilla/DA/BA/SW/GK...

[Claws and Effect]

It also ignores that individual Apothecary and Techmarine models are available from Forgeworld.

[ashc]

Forgeworld is ignored for the purposes of a mainstream codex though.

[Xisor]

Again, that may be their reasoning, but it's not like they couldn't have included the rest of the Command Squad either (DW Keepers would suit - and they go to pains to literally present banners in the Codex, albeit not so much pain as to do it twice over two editions, c+p is nice and easy).

 

And as for techmarines, kitbashing is entirely feasible. Small servo-arm off the missile launcher backpack, Ad Mech cog shoulder off of vehicle kits. Done.

[Vel'Cona]

Forgeworld is ignored for the purposes of a mainstream codex though.

 

Good.

[justicarius6]

It's not just uniqueness that us solid C:SM players would be losing but also for a bit of balance. If DW got everything C:SM did why the hell would you even play a standard marine chapter? And don't give me "oh, for fluff reasons" or "because I love my chapter" because that really doesn't wash outside of narrative games. It's bad enough that Bangles and Dangles are pretty much C:SM +1 without DW becoming C:SM +2 with every chapters toys + special issue ammo.

[Xisor]

I suppose an additional cost to the flexibility and lack of access to *big* non-elite units would cut that mustard, justicarius?

 

----

 

EDIT: Thinking a little further,what do you think are the *key* missing links here?

 

I'd contend that the things we are missing most usefully are:

- full suite of Dreadnought options (Ironclad, Contemptor, Librarian, Axe/Shield, Furioso-double-fisters)

- Apothecary (+bike, jump pack, terminator)

- Techmarine (+bike, jump pack)

- Ancient

- Champion

- "Command Squad"/honour guard

- Gravis Captain

 

 

Assuming all the other stuff "isn't important", would that capture the lot? Anything missing?

[ashc]

I suppose an additional cost to the flexibility and lack of access to *big* non-elite units would cut that mustard, justicarius?

 

----

 

EDIT: Thinking a little further,what do you think are the *key* missing links here?

 

I'd contend that the things we are missing most usefully are:

- full suite of Dreadnought options (Ironclad, Contemptor, Librarian, Axe/Shield, Furioso-double-fisters)

- Apothecary (+bike, jump pack, terminator)

- Techmarine (+bike, jump pack)

- Ancient

- Champion

- "Command Squad"/honour guard

 

 

Assuming all the other stuff "isn't important", would that capture the lot? Anything missing?

I suppose I would be even happier if those were in there.

 

Plus the primaris captain in gravis armour - because I have one :)

[Xisor]

Good shout, AshC. I've added that in!

 

Edit: I should clarify that "most usefully". I don't mean "holes in our list" from a playability/competetive perspective, but awkward rough edged holes where it'd be sensible to have them, without just including absolutely everything and the kitchen sink.

[Lemondish]

 

I suppose an additional cost to the flexibility and lack of access to *big* non-elite units would cut that mustard, justicarius?

 

----

 

EDIT: Thinking a little further,what do you think are the *key* missing links here?

 

I'd contend that the things we are missing most usefully are:

- full suite of Dreadnought options (Ironclad, Contemptor, Librarian, Axe/Shield, Furioso-double-fisters)

- Apothecary (+bike, jump pack, terminator)

- Techmarine (+bike, jump pack)

- Ancient

- Champion

- "Command Squad"/honour guard

 

 

Assuming all the other stuff "isn't important", would that capture the lot? Anything missing?

I suppose I would be even happier if those were in there.

 

Plus the primaris captain in gravis armour - because I have one

 

 

Agreed on the Primaris Gravis Cap - I would have enjoyed painting him all Deathwatchy. 

 

Regarding the ancient, it seems odd to me that a bunch of marines who were seconded from their parent chapter, a family they've called home for centuries by that point, would be inspired by a completely other standard for a force who's only shared trait is that they hunt xenos. 

 

Could have easily been resolved with a DW flavoured rule instead of the current one, of course. 

 

Also not convinced the honour guard/champion are all that important to DW. 

 

I agree on the missing techmarine, apothecary, and other dreadnought options. Codex: Dreadnoughts and Primawatch would have been fun - I'd definitely take a librarian dreadnought, or deepstrike a couple Ironclads into charge range of tanks. 

[Vel'Cona]

Edit: I should clarify that "most usefully". I don't mean "holes in our list" from a playability/competetive perspective, but awkward rough edged holes where it'd be sensible to have them, without just including absolutely everything and the kitchen sink.

 

That is an important distinction to make, I feel. It's one of the reasons I think this thread is worth discussing.  While I'm quite happy with the overall improvements to C: DW, I definitely am confused about the lack of standard Apothecaries, Techmarines and the Gravis Captain.  The Ironclad is a bit odd to me as well, given we have the other variants.  Perhaps it's worth pinging GW (along the lines of the FAQ submissions) just to see if they'll cave on one or two of these odd exceptions.

[BloodWolves]

I agree with that list but include scouts in there as well. I also was reading up on the Heralds of Ruin stuff.. I saw a Kill Team honor called: Tempestus Support.. would it help to add the Tempestus Scions as part as a Deathwatch troop choice too but with a limit so there isn't a spam? That way its the best guardsmen and the best space marines?

[Azaiel]

A shame that we cant have apothecaries and techmarines.

Instead of regular scouts a more fluffy choice would have been Kill marines:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deathwatch_Kill-marine

 

And a DW Keeper would have been a fluffy addition as a Lieutenant or similar role:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deathwatch_Keeper

[Xisor]

I was picturing Keepers as filling the Champion/Ancient/Honour Guard/Command Squad roles. Much more peculiar/ceremonial.

 

More than Scions, a bit of me feels like Acolytes & Inquisitors should be on the list, but then obviously they (like Scions) can be an extra detachment if needed. Hence my not including them, but they certainly 'fit' the idea!

[BloodWolves]

Oh my.. Dude! Kill Marines sound bad ass and perfect for like a scout role!

I think GW could of created a new model based off the Reivers but have them as normal marines but with a lighter subdued power armour. Basically new scout models since the faces of current scouts are odd.

 

Keepers are a good idea to fill that role of a Lieutenant or be a Keeper of the Banner (Ancient).

[Zogash]

IMHO, the fact that DW only get the Primaris Apothecary is nothing but a blatant cash grab to drive sales on a model that is beyond ridiculously overpriced. The regular Apothecary being in the Company Command box (which, coincidentally, costs only negligibly more than the single monopose Primaris Apothecary...) is a very flimsy excuse, since all the models in the box can be used to build DW miniatures:

 

Captain - slap a DW shoulder pad on him and he's good to go

Champion - DW shoulder pad and you have a Vet Sergeant with Power Sword and Combat Shield (iirc, this is actually the only Combat Shield bit that retains the Bolt Pistol)

Apothecary - duh

Ancient - a.) they could (and should, seeing as - like already mentioned - there are DW banners on display right there in the codex!) have just made him available to DW, or b.) just build him as a regular grunt - you don't have to use the banner just because it's there...

The other 2 - DW shoulder pads and add 'em to your Kill Team(s)

 

The Techmarine not being available may be due to the servo-harnessed model not having a replaceable shoulder pad, but it's still beyond annoying, since a) Dreadnoughts benefit massively from those repairs, and b.) DW are strapped for affordable HQ choices and the Techmarine would have been just that.

 

That being said, missing units...

 

Why on Terra is there no DW version of Cassius?! He has an entire Kill Team named after him, he is one of the (if not the) most famous DW members, there's a model that is readily available... why the effin H doesn't he have unique rules?! That's just embarrassingly lazy, if you ask me... Heck, I wouldn't even have minded had they just Ctrl+C Ctrl+V'ed him from the SM codex and just replaced ULTRAMARINES with DEATHWATCH.

 

On a related note, in KT Cassius, there's a named Blood Raven Librarian, Jensus Natorian. He has a sweet model, he's from the psyker chapter (of Dawn of War fame)... no unique rules. Laaaaaaame. GW totally dropped the ball on that one. He wouldn't even have had to be super powerful or super special - just a little perk like getting a 6++ save against PotW or getting to deny two powers/phase. Come on, it ain't hard...

[Vel'Cona]

Come on, it ain't hard...

 

I think it comes down to whether it's worth the pages in the book financially rather than purely a nod to background material.  An interesting point I heard when watching a vlog on Golden Daemon is that GW judges are more likely to hand out awards for current models (available ones, not OOP) since those are more marketable and make better "selling points" in WD, etc.  I'd expect this is very similar to how GW handles the codex releases, and plays into why the Primaris Apothecary is in C: DW but standard ones are not.  It's a shame that GW is so market-driven, but this is to be expected, and overall this is a better codex than the previous effort.

[Zogash]

 

Come on, it ain't hard...

 

I think it comes down to whether it's worth the pages in the book financially rather than purely a nod to background material.  An interesting point I heard when watching a vlog on Golden Daemon is that GW judges are more likely to hand out awards for current models (available ones, not OOP) since those are more marketable and make better "selling points" in WD, etc.  I'd expect this is very similar to how GW handles the codex releases, and plays into why the Primaris Apothecary is in C: DW but standard ones are not.  It's a shame that GW is so market-driven, but this is to be expected, and overall this is a better codex than the previous effort.

 

 

I get that, but the Kill Team Cassius box set is still quite new, and, let's face it, quite pricey. Making two of the models in it into named characters would have been a major selling point for minimal effort on GW's part, especially since one of them already has rules in C:SM they could maybe have just tweaked a little (if at all). As is, there is little incentive to get the box of monopose minis over just buying two regular Kill Team boxes for about the same price and just about drowing in bits and variety. It just seems non-sensical to me to pass on such an opportunity...

[Lemondish]

 

 

Come on, it ain't hard...

 

I think it comes down to whether it's worth the pages in the book financially rather than purely a nod to background material.  An interesting point I heard when watching a vlog on Golden Daemon is that GW judges are more likely to hand out awards for current models (available ones, not OOP) since those are more marketable and make better "selling points" in WD, etc.  I'd expect this is very similar to how GW handles the codex releases, and plays into why the Primaris Apothecary is in C: DW but standard ones are not.  It's a shame that GW is so market-driven, but this is to be expected, and overall this is a better codex than the previous effort.

 

 

I get that, but the Kill Team Cassius box set is still quite new, and, let's face it, quite pricey. Making two of the models in it into named characters would have been a major selling point for minimal effort on GW's part, especially since one of them already has rules in C:SM they could maybe have just tweaked a little (if at all). As is, there is little incentive to get the box of monopose minis over just buying two regular Kill Team boxes for about the same price and just about drowing in bits and variety. It just seems non-sensical to me to pass on such an opportunity...

 

 

I imagine its the downside of pumping out codexes as regularly as they have been. 

[Vel'Cona]

 

I imagine its the downside of pumping out codexes as regularly as they have been.

 

True enough.  And if the sacrifice we have to make is a few units skipped in the effort to get us our updated rules faster, I feel it's a worthwhile altar to do so on.

[Lemondish]

 

 

I imagine its the downside of pumping out codexes as regularly as they have been.

 

True enough.  And if the sacrifice we have to make is a few units skipped in the effort to get us our updated rules faster, I feel it's a worthwhile altar to do so on.

 

 

My hope is that we eventually start to see each force expanded upon in ways that don't require a giant codex launch, but that's just me ;)