Anyone Feel Like Theres Missing Units?

[Irbis]

 

To me, it sounds like you want to "have you cake and eat it too" as far as this codex is concerned.  You've put a lot of thought into why things should be in the list without enjoying what's there and figuring out how to get what you want from the list.  I'm not saying you shouldn't pine for units/options/rules that you feel are unjustly or unreasonably absent, but perhaps focus on what's there to get what you want from the codex.  I find that, taken as a whole, the DW codex is already a large entity with tons of flexibility and plenty of unit representation, and where that falls through can be bolstered with allied detachments or clever conversions.  In fact, the latter is one of the best reasons to enjoy DW in my personal opinion, if not purely for arbitrary rules nods.

 

But he has a point. Where is the flexibility? All squatmarines have are options from 7th edition book, some of which were quietly forgotten to boot (shotguns and infernus, anyone?), Dreads are castrated and by far worst out of all past and present SM books (come on, not even frakking SIA access to that one sad bolter they have?), Primaris had zero thought put into them (SIA being capped ruined the point of Stalkers and Bolt carbines are laughably overpriced for some reason) - if BA got access on their Primaris to the signature chainsword, why DW Primaris didn't get access to their signature weapon, the xenophase? It would cost the writer literally 5 seconds of work.

 

See, now that I looked at DW book, I am kinda disappointed too - DA and BA players got their whining rewarded with mass access to the handful of units that made Codex SM unique, yet DW book tells us the army that actually has a reason to borrow the special toys didn't even get access to vanilla stuff, despite it being right there in DW Codex fluff. The entry on Blackstar even openly taunts stating that DW routinely uses all fighters and gunships SM use - where are they? Where is perfectly fluffy Land Speeder, even a normal one, never mind quad gun DA one? DW champions and honor guard equivalent?

 

My problem is not the fact that DW doesn't have access to everything ever (something some BA, DA, and SW players could finally accept), but there is so much 'special forces' flavour stuff that is nowhere near being OP left out from the book, when both common sense (and from model sale standpoint) would dictate porting it ASAP...

[BloodWolves]

Boom. Im so glad another person sees it the right way!

[BloodWolves]

I still believe that they should have access to any unit they want. Maybe at a higher point cost or a Command Point deduction.

[Finkmilkana]

I still believe that they should have access to any unit they want. Maybe at a higher point cost or a Command Point deduction.

Well, with a command point deduction they already do have access to pretty much all SM vehicles in the form of an auxiliary detachment. Since vehicles either way don’t get chapter tactics there isn’t even that much different doing this (besides auras/stratagems).

[justicarius6]

Xenophase blades aren't "signature weapons" they're meant to be extremely rare artifacts!

 

And the special forces having access to anything they want is bogus too, how many special forces teams tool around in battle tanks and fighter jets? Fluff-wise they have "access" to a lot of things, it doesn't mean they regularly roar around in all this stuff. Fluff-wise they don't keep great armouries of every single piece of equipment the imperium has just in case a team feels like rocking up a predator or a land-speeder.

 

Deathwatch have a great codex, they've given a use to primaris, they've made intercessors great again with the addition of SiA, the mixed teams are a great way of building esoteric lists (even though *gasp* most lists will be completely unfluffy and just bring along the most effective builds) and you've got decent usable "chapter tactics" and stratagems.

 

And castrated dreads...... I'm guessing you've no real understanding of the damage that three teleported dreadnoughts (that includes contemptors, leviathans, chaplains etc) can do right into the enemy's face.

 

I'm sorry but some of the past few posts just stink of naked greed when it comes to wanting everything from not one, but FOUR different codices. :O

 

The only units I can see that this codex actually misses are basic apothecaries and techmarines.

[Lemondish]

 

I still believe that they should have access to any unit they want. Maybe at a higher point cost or a Command Point deduction.

Well, with a command point deduction they already do have access to pretty much all SM vehicles in the form of an auxiliary detachment. Since vehicles either way don’t get chapter tactics there isn’t even that much different doing this (besides auras/stratagems).

Hell, you don't even need a command point deduction if you're going to take multiple. You could use a Librarian as the HQ tax and have him buff your backline. Gives you a decent amount of options, plus imagine how awesome those units will look with DW paintschemes. 

 

I'm actually considering some flyers myself - I really like the Stormtalon/Stormhawk kit (even if they aren't the best on the board), and they're lighter on the wallet than a Xiphon.

[Vel'Cona]

Keep this civil, brothers.  Everyone has valid points in this discussion and we all want to be respected.

 

I do understand some of the disappointment in being disallowed units that from a background or personally-inferred perspective have a reason to be present.  I suppose if I was really annoyed by a lacking model, I'd dig into allied detachments to meet my needs.  Perhaps a Flyer Wing from C: SM to slide in Stormtalons/Stormhawks, or an Outrider Detachment for a selection of Landspeeders?  I'd have no issue on the table with someone painting these in DW colours and backgrounding them appropriately (on loan from a nearby chapter?  Part of the Watch Captain's personal retinue? etc.).

 

I suppose my point is there are workarounds for many of these perceived shortfalls, and without much legwork/elbow grease required on the part of the gamer. :)

[Xisor]

The workarounds is precisely how it is to be done. But, you know what, it is already a bloody stress trying to point up values from one Codex. (The intent of making everything you need be right there on the datasheet worked well... except that I don't think even in Codex: Space Marines was it done properly. Perhaps if you go pure Primaris...)

 

----

 

Looking at it, my poxy little Watcher Keep still relies on Index Imperium 1 (Space Wolves), Codex:SM, Codex:Blood Angels, and Codex: Deathwatch.

 

Whilst it's true that it all can theoretically be done, it's also true that GW copy and pasted the vast bulk of the Codex in the first instance.

 

A little more C+P for completeness wouldn't have gone amiss.

 

----

 

I think I really must buy some crayons.

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

 

To me, it sounds like you want to "have you cake and eat it too" as far as this codex is concerned. You've put a lot of thought into why things should be in the list without enjoying what's there and figuring out how to get what you want from the list. I'm not saying you shouldn't pine for units/options/rules that you feel are unjustly or unreasonably absent, but perhaps focus on what's there to get what you want from the codex. I find that, taken as a whole, the DW codex is already a large entity with tons of flexibility and plenty of unit representation, and where that falls through can be bolstered with allied detachments or clever conversions. In fact, the latter is one of the best reasons to enjoy DW in my personal opinion, if not purely for arbitrary rules nods.

But he has a point. Where is the flexibility? All squatmarines have are options from 7th edition book, some of which were quietly forgotten to boot (shotguns and infernus, anyone?), Dreads are castrated and by far worst out of all past and present SM books (come on, not even frakking SIA access to that one sad bolter they have?), Primaris had zero thought put into them (SIA being capped ruined the point of Stalkers and Bolt carbines are laughably overpriced for some reason) - if BA got access on their Primaris to the signature chainsword, why DW Primaris didn't get access to their signature weapon, the xenophase? It would cost the writer literally 5 seconds of work.

 

See, now that I looked at DW book, I am kinda disappointed too - DA and BA players got their whining rewarded with mass access to the handful of units that made Codex SM unique, yet DW book tells us the army that actually has a reason to borrow the special toys didn't even get access to vanilla stuff, despite it being right there in DW Codex fluff. The entry on Blackstar even openly taunts stating that DW routinely uses all fighters and gunships SM use - where are they? Where is perfectly fluffy Land Speeder, even a normal one, never mind quad gun DA one? DW champions and honor guard equivalent?

 

My problem is not the fact that DW doesn't have access to everything ever (something some BA, DA, and SW players could finally accept), but there is so much 'special forces' flavour stuff that is nowhere near being OP left out from the book, when both common sense (and from model sale standpoint) would dictate porting it ASAP...

Funny that in my area, the thinking is exactly the opposite.

 

All BA players that I know are saying « why the hell would I play primaris BA when I can play a detachment of primawatch count as BA? »

Now with the multi detachment you can easily play a bataillon including BA scouts and sanguinary guards and libby dread and another bataillon with 2 fortis kill team and a squad of vet counting as BA sternguards and you can give them frag cannon! See ? A BA vet with frag cannon how cool is that?

 

 

As a deathwing player I also see a nice point playing deathwatch termi as deathwing termi in a full termi army... What would I lose?

 

So yeah the point of not having standard apo but primaris one is stupid and I can confirm the absence of apo thecary in blister IS the reason. (You made valid point on how to make one but keep in mind that GW politic tends to avoid having to explain how to convert a model from various kits <_< )

 

But saying that we miss options and that we should have more dreads or vehicles doesn’t take into consideration that, currently, the primawatch are replacing primaris in every SM built... so imagine what it would give with more options...

[Vel'Cona]

So yeah the point of not having standard apo but primaris one is stupid and I can confirm the absence of apo thecary in blister IS the reason. (You made valid point on how to make one but keep in mind that GW politic tends to avoid having to explain how to convert a model from various kits )

 

That's such an odd thing to do from a sales standpoint, too.  Assuming that conversions are available/required to get some models, doesn't that mean folks are going to buy kits anyway to get the parts they need?  I guess I miss GW's reasoning on this one.

[Master Avoghai]

 

So yeah the point of not having standard apo but primaris one is stupid and I can confirm the absence of apo thecary in blister IS the reason. (You made valid point on how to make one but keep in mind that GW politic tends to avoid having to explain how to convert a model from various kits <_< )

 

 

That's such an odd thing to do from a sales standpoint, too.  Assuming that conversions are available/required to get some models, doesn't that mean folks are going to buy kits anyway to get the parts they need?  I guess I miss GW's reasoning on this one.

Well GW is at the crossways on 2 politics now, which explain why it seems a little odd

 

First there was the GW we all know : a GW that encourage conversion and various wargear to personnalize or models/units and who designed the models accordingly.

 

Now it’s GW 2.0 : they decided to reconceptualize how they build a codex/unit composition.

1/ Models need to be perfect and with great pose and no strange gluing possibility : that’s why we now have mono pose models and no more separater torso and legs : it’s simpler for the newbie and guarantee not to see strange position or gluing junctions.

The consequence is now we have primaris with left hand directly scuplted on the bolter that prevent conversion (such like primaris with bolter and chainsword or one handed bolters)

2/ Units composition must reflect what we have in the box. And only what we have. No more « if you want a lazcan on your deva, grab one on the deva boxset ».

Now you have 5 intercessors, they have 5 bolters. That’s it.

The rationnal behind this politic is that they want to make hobby access easier for newbie and don’t want to explain someone that he has to make a conversion or will have access to option X once he’ll have a convenient bitzbox... It’s actually an issue some store had : people complaining that they don’t have all the options of the codex available in a boxset. On the same time it allows them to kill bitz sales and third party shop.

 

 

The problem now is that we are at the start of this poltics and that GW could not juste erase what they have done for years. That’s why we still have the strange situation of a SM ancient with load of wargear to allow people to field the ancient like they used to do... But we have a primaris ancient with no other option than a bolter because it’s how it is sold in the dark imperium boxset.

Also since we are at the beginning of the primaris range it occurs strange stituations : the only lieutenants available have either bolter/pistol or Sword/pistol, hence they only have this option available in the codex => no bolter/sword lieutenant BUT since the option is available in the boxset, you can have a bolter/sword sgt... :wacko: So the Lieutenant has less options than the sgt <_<

 

 

In clonclusion, GW doesn’t want to explain a new player that he has to build an apothecary from bitz. The apothecary entry is in the SM codex though to allow people to field their old models of apothecary or the models from the command squad boxset that is still available and which can be sold to a SM player as «  you have 3 elite slot in one in this boxset ».

But since the deathwatch have neither the standard bearer options nor the command squad option and that apothecary wasn’t a possibility in the previous codex, they simply doesn’t include him according to their new policy.

 

 

It’s a shame and this new policy, IMO, a stupid decision that kills the inventivity of the modelists, but our society evolves as well as our community... and lots of newbie seem to want an all include package :(

[Vel'Cona]

 

It’s a shame and this new policy, IMO, a stupid decision that kills the inventivity of the modelists, but our society evolves as well as our community... and lots of newbie seem to want an all include package

 

It's an intriguing shift, to say the least.  I'm on the fence about it since I love having all the options in one box from a value standpoint, while at the same time I want to be able to use models I converted from previous editions without having to swap arms because of a generally unnecessary rules change.  I suppose GW is in a rough spot on this one, which is why the DW codex looks "chopped up" compared to other SM codexes.

[Master Avoghai]

I suppose GW is in a rough spot on this one, which is why the DW codex looks "chopped up" compared to other SM codexes.

Yup, deathwatch codex is actually the closest codex from what v9 ones will look like...

 

Actually without having to swap weapon to fit new edition I would like to be able to personnalize my characters... having just a bolter for an ancient is totally boring from a modelist PoV...

 

That just shows us what may be the collateral damages of claiming more... you actually get less :unsure: