CradleToGrave Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Doing some quick math around the SIA rules we have now, I am a bit puzzled by why the designers chose to make dragonfire bolts function as they do. From a fluff standpoint, increasing the to-hit roll makes sense for an air burst type round, modeling the idea of hitting multiple bodies in cover. However, from a game standpoint, and the limited calcs I've done, shooting any of the other three bolt types at units in cover will result in more statistical kills. This is not accounting for mission tactics or stratagems, but just shots using only SIA rules. What I am getting at here is that it isn't as straightforward as "always use dragonfire bolts vs units in cover". I know part of the game is figuring out how to use abilities to greatest effect. But it just doesn't feel right to have a tool not always work for the intended job that the label touts. I may be off on my assessment, and maybe I haven't thought enough about it, but I welcome feedback on what I might be missing. Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Dragonfire bolts are definitely an odd option since the vast majority of time they will be the worst possible option. About the only situation I can think of that would make them worth using is if you were firing at a target that you wound on a 3, are going to use the +1 wound strat anyway, and increased AP doesn't do anything. (So Demons or other invuln reliant units) That or a lightly armored vehicle that's in cover. If they ignored cover as well then they'd actually have some niche uses since hitting on 3s wounding on 2s is the same as hitting on 2s wounding on 3s so all that matters after that is armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5083760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finkmilkana Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 They should be useful against low toughness, bad armor (or good invul save) models that have any kind of -x to hit. Going from hitting on 4 (or even 5) to hitting on 3 (or 4) is a lot more valuable than going from 3 to 2. But yeah, they are quite situational. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5083850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Very useful against Jormungandr chaff units when you have a Watch Captain nearby. Massed units of Termagants that always count as in cover. They probably won't make many saves and more hits translates to more potential wounds. Hitting on 2s with a Captain aura means you stand a good chance of hitting with all your shots. 20 hits wounding on 3s can kill more than 15 shots wounding on 2s. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5083856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 We also happen to have a WT that allows our Warlord to remove Cover bonuses from an enemy unit for all friendly units within 6" of the Warlord, FWIW. Combos exist to utilize this, but again it's hard to say exactly which opponents will "feel" this most acutely. For general practice, the Dragonfire Bolt is the worst pick but it's not completely useless, by any stretch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Combo with death to the alien for extra shots on 5/6+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Death to the Alien is fight phase only. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Death to the Alien is fight phase only. Indeed, I got super excited until I read that little detail. It's still pretty rad but it lost a bit of luster on that one :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahistorian Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Good for annoying Eldar Rangers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Good for annoying Eldar Rangers? Possibly the only time - would have been used more if heavy bolters fired SIA - would negate the movement penalty for some targets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vigitant Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I've used the against Eldar Rangers, and can second Ahistorian. Annoyed him a lot until his Dark Reapers removed my army(pre-codex). I've also used them against AM's Invul save MW-throwing crazed cultists. "Wait, your entire army gets cover this round? And they have an invul save better than their armor? Huh, well never used these before..." <loads Dragonfire> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 I've used the against Eldar Rangers, and can second Ahistorian. Annoyed him a lot until his Dark Reapers removed my army(pre-codex). I've also used them against AM's Invul save MW-throwing crazed cultists. "Wait, your entire army gets cover this round? And they have an invul save better than their armor? Huh, well never used these before..." <loads Dragonfire> For some reason I imagine the DW marine blowing the dust out of the mag before slamming it into the bolter and shrugging. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
novembermike Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 They probably should have been "always hits on 3+, ignores cover". I think that would be about as powerful as the other rounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347356-dragonfire-boltsa-trap/#findComment-5084796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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