GW drops GT army size to 1750 points

[Panzer]

No, everyone is just speculating.

[Raven1]

I'm not sure a 250 point cut will speed the game up all that much. However, it us interesting. It seems you would now have to cut that little bit extra from the army. It might actually make units like more than 8W units more survivable just because there is just that one extra nice unit gone from the other army. Or just discourage 8< wound models because something can't make the cut.

 

To stop deliberate slow play chess clocks us the answer.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

Meh that's me out.

Isn't this the third or fourth time you've announced that you're quitting 40K?

I think he just meant he's out of tournaments, not the game as a whole.

 

As far as the point drop is concerned, I kind of feel like it's yet another thing that is intended to curtail horde armies that actually hurts elite armies more.

 

Much like the morale system. It was intended to make hordes easier to deal with, but then GW gave almost every horde army a way to virtually ignore morale. End result: My Raven Guard will flee from combat while my Tyranid opponent has never once lost a model to morale.

 

Since horde armies are so cheap per model shaving 250 points doesn't really affect them a whole lot. On the other side, an elite army loses a bit more simply because more expensive models create more difficult choices on what to cut.

[Excessus]

Well, this is my reaction:

 

http://whec-assets-live.s3.amazonaws.com/2016/07/57960_bc272de83bc743dd178641b56d2f4c6b.png

[Vel'Cona]

10/10, end of thread :lol:

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

Meh that's me out.

Isn't this the third or fourth time you've announced that you're quitting 40K?

I think he just meant he's out of tournaments, not the game as a whole.

 

As far as the point drop is concerned, I kind of feel like it's yet another thing that is intended to curtail horde armies that actually hurts elite armies more.

 

Much like the morale system. It was intended to make hordes easier to deal with, but then GW gave almost every horde army a way to virtually ignore morale. End result: My Raven Guard will flee from combat while my Tyranid opponent has never once lost a model to morale.

 

Since horde armies are so cheap per model shaving 250 points doesn't really affect them a whole lot. On the other side, an elite army loses a bit more simply because more expensive models create more difficult choices on what to cut.

Yeah, I meant I'm out of the GW tournament scene. It's not out of the question for me to attend these tournaments, I have friends who make the trip often and Nottingham isn't a world away for me. Nids and Guard are unaffected, Marines and Custodes are neutered.

[Lord Marshal]

It's just an experimental thing. If it doesn't work, they'll change it back. If it turns out to work for the better, great.

 

I think you can go one season (or whatever) without the sky falling.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Has anyone message the Warhammer World event team & maybe ask?  I'm sure they'd be more than happy to answer why the points where change for Grand Tournament.

There many other events held that Warhammer World as well, from Throne of Skulls to Campaign weekend.  Some of these don't tend to see a "fix" point limit, it can change from event to event.

 

Pretty much there surely a event that Warhammer World that will suit way you enjoy the hobby, from gaming to painting.

 

On a side note - I tend to find it the player who make the game slow or a fast game.  But this is just from my own view/experience.  I've fought a 180 Ork model list that a Warhammer World event, we've mange to get to 7 turns & 45 minute to spare before the round stop.
Yet I've fought (not in a event) against a Elite Necron army, when turn 2 finish, it been 2 hour & 45 minute...  Both of my turns where 15-20 minute, apparently the person had hope to wipe me out on turn 1 & chose to slow play when the game was not going there way. 

Again just my own view.

[Petitioner's City]

Remember when 1500 waa standard in 3rd edition? Most battle reports seemed to be that. Were tourneys the same?

[Vel'Cona]

Remember when 1500 waa standard in 3rd edition? Most battle reports seemed to be that. Were tourneys the same?

 

The GT I went to in '04 was 1700 IIRC.

[CommodusXIII]

Yet I've fought (not in a event) against a Elite Necron army, when turn 2 finish, it been 2 hour & 45 minute...  Both of my turns where 15-20 minute, apparently the person had hope to wipe me out on turn 1 & chose to slow play when the game was not going there way. 

 

That's when a chess clock would come in handy as a tournament mechanic.

 

Remember when 1500 waa standard in 3rd edition? Most battle reports seemed to be that. Were tourneys the same?

 

The GT I went to in '04 was 1700 IIRC.

 

 

I remember them being 1750, but 3rd Edition spanned a relatively long period of 40K history.

[kombatwombat]

Chess Clocks is the best way.

No, they are not.

 

As gobsmacking as it may seem to people on the internet, there is a very large number of people who attend tournaments just for the fun of it. Now that’s not saying playing to win is badwrongfun, but that people do go to these things just to play Warhammer for a whole day/weekend, meet some people, have a laugh and (venue depending) a few drinks, see some pretty armies or try something different. These kinds of people are there for a social experience rather than a competitive one. I would say the the dominant part of the bottom third of placings are these kinds of people, most of the bottom half and even a strong showing of the bottom two thirds.

 

For these sorts of people, chess clocks are an unnecessary stress. People tend to live their day to day lives under time pressure, so bringing that kind of stress to their hobby relax time is going to drive people away. I would say that you’re directly hurting the hobby by enforcing chess clocks. And what are you gaining in return? You’re stopping that one particular jerkwad from being a douche that one time. You really are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

Want to introduce chess clocks to the top 5-10 tables, the ones which will actually affect the people trying to place? Go right ahead. Just leave the rest of us having lighthearted games in peace.

[Panzer]

 

Chess Clocks is the best way.

No, they are not.

 

As gobsmacking as it may to people on the internet, there is a very large number of people who attend tournaments just for the fun of it. Now that’s not saying playing to win is badwrongfun, but that people do go to these things just to play Warhammer for a whole day/weekend, meet some people, have a laugh and (venue depending) a few drinks, see some pretty armies or try something different. I would say the the dominant part of the bottom third of placings are these kinds of people, most of the bottom half and even a strong showing of the bottom two thirds.

 

For these sorts of people, chess clocks are an unnecessary stress. People tend to live their day to day lives under time pressure, so bringing that kind of stress to their hobby relax time is going to drive people away. I would say that you’re directly hurting the hobby by enforcing chess clocks. And what are you gaining in return? You’re stopping that one particular jerkwad from being a douche that one time. You really are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

Want to introduce chess clocks to the top 5-10 tables, the ones which will actually affect the people trying to place? Go right ahead. Just leave the rest of us having lighthearted games in peace.

 

 

Chess Clocks would obviously be for the big tournaments and not for the casual ones.

 

About the top 5-10 tables thing ... people have to get to those tables first. You can already lose a lot of points early on if you happen to be matched against the wrong opponent where a Chess Clock would already prevent slow play shenanigans.

[Race Bannon]

I support this change because change is the only constant in the universe.

[CrusherJoe]

I'm not a fan.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

Chess Clocks is the best way.

No, they are not.

 

As gobsmacking as it may to people on the internet, there is a very large number of people who attend tournaments just for the fun of it. Now that’s not saying playing to win is badwrongfun, but that people do go to these things just to play Warhammer for a whole day/weekend, meet some people, have a laugh and (venue depending) a few drinks, see some pretty armies or try something different. I would say the the dominant part of the bottom third of placings are these kinds of people, most of the bottom half and even a strong showing of the bottom two thirds.

 

For these sorts of people, chess clocks are an unnecessary stress. People tend to live their day to day lives under time pressure, so bringing that kind of stress to their hobby relax time is going to drive people away. I would say that you’re directly hurting the hobby by enforcing chess clocks. And what are you gaining in return? You’re stopping that one particular jerkwad from being a douche that one time. You really are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

Want to introduce chess clocks to the top 5-10 tables, the ones which will actually affect the people trying to place? Go right ahead. Just leave the rest of us having lighthearted games in peace.

 

 

Chess Clocks would obviously be for the big tournaments and not for the casual ones.

 

You're missing the point there. Big tournaments have more casual players for simple scaling reasons. The most competitive tournaments are the invitational ones which are comparatively small.

 

[Ishagu]

Guys, we are in a hobby where we spend thousands of dollars/pounds/rupees on plastic models. We can all afford a chess clock

[Lagrath]

This is just one event series in the UK, which uses book missions instead of ITC or ETC. I assume GW is doing it to make it easier for themselves to manage the events. I don't think anyone should care. I certainly think we should stick with 2k.

[Helycon]

Guys, we are in a hobby where we spend thousands of dollars/pounds/rupees on plastic models. We can all afford a chess clock

Afford and want to are two different things.

[Prot]

I agree with the Frontline Data on this one.

 

Here's the thing... I'm attending an ITC event, and my biggest challenge is to drop my most expensive unit, and get some cheap junk in there, and own more real estate.

 

So this is my personal issue with 40K 8th edition: Stop rewarding cheap, recyclable, or easy to produce, ObSec junk in the game. This will speed things up considerably, and they've already made some of my favourite models in the game too expensive to take in 1750 with the recent round of nerfs.

 

And if this wasn't true, then a non-codex army wouldn't have won the GT last week.

 

Just find a happy medium there, and games will naturally speed up.

 

But just to give an example, my 2K deathguard usually tries to incorporate Mort. He's a liability in most of my lists, and too expensive. When I go down to 1750 my model count actually goes up! (and it's probably stronger as a result.)

 

That's just my two cents. I like my bigger toys, and the ones I use aren't particularly good, so they're nearly invalid competitively speaking under 2K, but my lists will get bigger.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I'm not entirely sure that they changed the point value just to speed up the game. A 250 point drop isn't going to accomplish a whole a lot on that front. I think they did the point drop for several reasons.

 

1) It shakes up the meta, 2000 point lists need to pared down and some will handle it better than others. By the same token some of the tier 2 style lists may be more competitive.

 

2) GW doesn't push one style of tournament, they offer ideals for restrictions in some of supplements but they aren't saying you must use ITC rules. So I think they may want to have a high profile event that breaks the mold. 

 

3) They probably do want to see how if more games do finish.

 

[Happy-inquisitor]

I agree with the Frontline Data on this one.

 

Here's the thing... I'm attending an ITC event, and my biggest challenge is to drop my most expensive unit, and get some cheap junk in there, and own more real estate.

 

So this is my personal issue with 40K 8th edition: Stop rewarding cheap, recyclable, or easy to produce, ObSec junk in the game. This will speed things up considerably, and they've already made some of my favourite models in the game too expensive to take in 1750 with the recent round of nerfs.

 

And if this wasn't true, then a non-codex army wouldn't have won the GT last week.

 

Just find a happy medium there, and games will naturally speed up.

 

But just to give an example, my 2K deathguard usually tries to incorporate Mort. He's a liability in most of my lists, and too expensive. When I go down to 1750 my model count actually goes up! (and it's probably stronger as a result.)

 

That's just my two cents. I like my bigger toys, and the ones I use aren't particularly good, so they're nearly invalid competitively speaking under 2K, but my lists will get bigger.

 

Well we are all just speculating on the reason for the change after there were slow-play issues on the top tables of the GT final. It is just as likely that someone at GW just feels that the lower points level helps set them apart from things like the ETC and forces people to bring distinct and different lists rather than just whatever ETC/ITC list that won the last tournament.

 

I have been playing high model count armies for a couple of editions now and I have no problems finishing my games quickly. Last tournament I had at least 50% more models in play than anyone else and all my games came to a natural end with at least half an hour to spare ( and I strung out one game coz my opponent was a youngster and did not want to table him quickly ).

 

If we want to eliminate dubious slow play then chess clocks are really the only answer. I am really not sure that our game of little plastic dudes should ever be taken that seriously but I have been blatantly slow-played a couple of times in tournaments so the sad fact is that there are people out there who do take it that seriously and are happy to take the win by any approach which will not actually get them disqualified. :(

[Panzer]

Either chest clocks or a judge for every table. I argue the chest clock is the better solution lol

[Crabstuffed Mushrooms]

I don't think the points change was being done to combat 'slow play' - I think it's merely an acknowledgement that playing 2000pts takes awhile unless you're conscientious with time - most of us aren't when we're having fun!

 

Frontline noted in a recent podcast that they're testing out the chess clocks (chess clocks have a precedent with Warmachine). I think they share the same concerns that people have voiced here and are still experimenting with it. I think limiting chess clocks to the top tables is a great idea - and they even mentioned that as something they were testing.

 

I think someone really hit the nail on the head earlier: Not everyone is going to a tourney to be ultra-competitive - but people have fun when games are moving along at a reasonable pace as well. Nobody likes waiting 30 minutes for the other guy to make a move.

 

Ideally, we'd have more time for games in a tourney but practically, you can't always take this approach.

[Fire Golem]

Guys, we are in a hobby where we spend thousands of dollars/pounds/rupees on plastic models. We can all afford a chess clock

I don’t think anyone has used price as a reason they don’t want to use chess clocks..?