Chapter Decision Help

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone! 

 

So I've finally decided on the first list I will be building, I have put it in a hidden section below. I am now trying to figure out which chapter to run this list with. I actually have a few different options. 

 

Ultramarines: Fallback and shoot, +1 ld, Adept of the Codex, The Sanctic Halo

Raven Guard: SftS, Storm of Fire, -1 to hit if over 12"

Blood Angels: Red Thirst, Captain Smashypants, Strong melee Librarians

Crimson Fists: Pedro Kantor, Bolter Drill(stratagem), Storm of Fire, Ignore Cover***

 

Now the list is geared toward shooting so I kind of lean toward Ultramarines or Crimson Fists here, maybe even Raven Guard because it allows all 18 aggressors to deploy in 18" range of the opponent, possibly in cover and ready to double tap on the first turn. But Blood Angels help shore up the lack of melee in the list amplifying everything in the army to be able to hit back at a decent rate.

 

I'm really leaning toward Ultramarines here just because it would play so much better in the shooting phase allowing my bikers to fallback and shoot. But doing so I lose a lot of melee power that comes with the Blood Angels... AHhhhhh! lol! 

 

There is also the fact that Crimson Fists get to ignore cover. This is HUGE since the majority of the army is firing with the S4 0 1 profile.

 

Core List:

Hidden Content

 

[T] Intercessor Squad (5-man) 91

- Bolt Rifle x5, Chainsword x1, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher x1

 

[T] Intercessor Squad (5-man) 91

- Bolt Rifle x5, Chainsword x1, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher x1

 

[T] Intercessor Squad (5-man) 91

- Bolt Rifle x5, Chainsword x1, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher x1

 

[T] Intercessor Squad (5-man) 91

- Bolt Rifle x5, Chainsword x1, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher x1

 

[FA] - Scout Bike Squad (9-man) 229

- Shotgun x9, Twin Boltgun x9, Power Sword

 

[FA] - Scout Bike Squad (9-man) 229

- Shotgun x9, Twin Boltgun x9, Power Sword

 

[FA] - Scout Bike Squad (9-man) 229

- Shotgun x9, Twin Boltgun x9, Power Sword

 

[E] Aggressor Squad (6-man) - 222

- Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets x6 / Fragstorm Grenade Launcher x6

 

[E] Aggressor Squad (6-man) - 222

- Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets x6 / Fragstorm Grenade Launcher x6

 

[E] Aggressor Squad (6-man) - 222

- Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets x6 / Fragstorm Grenade Launcher x6

 

 

So.. What do you guys think? Should I shore up the problem the list has with melee? Should I focus solely on the ranged firepower of the Ultramarines or Crimson Fists? I'm honestly conflicted right now. :/ 

 

Any comments will be appreciated. Please keep in mind that I want to keep the core list how it is here.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I haven't looked at the list yet, but I did want to point out something that affect your calculations. Crimson Fists don't get Bolter Drill. It's keyword specific to Imperial Fists, not to the IF Chapter Tactics.

[Captain Idaho]

If you play 40K you should choose your faction based upon the background you enjoy most. What inspires you?

 

40K is actually suffering from people "gaming" the system. I started watching Ash Barker's most recent battle report and I turned it off because his opponent used 2 separate Hive Fleets because he wanted their rules and didn't even bother to paint the alternative detchments differently.

[Rockythedog]

I haven't looked at the list yet, but I did want to point out something that affect your calculations. Crimson Fists don't get Bolter Drill. It's keyword specific to Imperial Fists, not to the IF Chapter Tactics.

Don’t Crimson Fists get access to anything Imperial Fists as a successor? I thought that they got Bolter drill as it’s a stratagem but they got there own chapter tactic

[Tankus Wokus]

Yes they do.

 

From the Codex

 

Page 196 "Stratagems" 

 If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems, you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter. For example, CRIMSON FISTS are a successor Chapter of the IMPERIAL FISTS, so you can use the Bolter Drill Stratagem to affect a CRIMSON FISTS INFANTRY unit just as if were an IMPERIAL FISTS unit 

[Rockythedog]

Yes they do.

 

From the Codex

 

Page 196 "Stratagems"

If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems, you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter. For example, CRIMSON FISTS are a successor Chapter of the IMPERIAL FISTS, so you can use the Bolter Drill Stratagem to affect a CRIMSON FISTS INFANTRY unit just as if were an IMPERIAL FISTS unit

Haha I literally came back to post exactly this after checking my codex

It’s the warlord trait that is chapter specific for the Crimson Fists.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I must have missed that, my apologies. I don't play a successor so it was never an issue for me.

[Aothaine]

If you play 40K you should choose your faction based upon the background you enjoy most. What inspires you?

 

40K is actually suffering from people "gaming" the system. I started watching Ash Barker's most recent battle report and I turned it off because his opponent used 2 separate Hive Fleets because he wanted their rules and didn't even bother to paint the alternative detchments differently.

 

I totally feel you. I would really only expect that type of play at higher competitive tournaments. I don't have the luxury to build and paint up multiple units from different factions for an army and would not field it otherwise. If you take a look at the list is is pretty much Primaris with Scouts with the bolter profile filling up most of the forces' firepower. It is not super cheesy, but actually somewhat fluffy for a chapter that took heavy casualties and was reinforced with Primaris. 

 

The reason I'm asking is because I am legitimately conflicted. I enjoy all of the chapters I listed above and like how they all look. I enjoy their special rules as well. I'm just trying to find out the best way to field them before dumping $1,000 on an army. I am a competitive player just not as bad as the hardcore ITC crowd. I will most likely not run Crimson Fists because I like making my own characters and plan on paying for the chapter master stratagem. But it would be foolish not to mention them here as they are quite good for this list and have access to Bolter Drill and Pedro Kantor is quite decent at shoring up some of the primaris weaknesses. 

 

But I agree. I prefer to play WYSIWYG and with the army painted up correctly. Though I totally don't mind someone painting up their army to be kind of neutral to jump between a few different factions. I can easily see Tyranids using multiple Hive Fleets in conjunction. I mean.. it is one Hive Mind that gathers all the experience and puts it to use on the table. But I'd like the models to be painted in a way that makes it easy to tell them apart or have markers that shows that.

 

Anyway, thank you very much for your comments! ^_^

 

I must have missed that, my apologies. I don't play a successor so it was never an issue for me.

 

All good ^_^ Also, I think it is only the Imperial Fist Relic that Crimson Fists don't have access to. I think they can use the warlord trait. Blood Angel successors can use the Blood Angel Warlord Traits. Not sure if it is the same in the Space Marine dex as I don't have it on me right now. But Crimson Fists are better off with Storm of Fire anyway.. well at least my list is.

 

Anyone have an opinions based off what might work better with the list?

[Claws and Effect]

Nope.

 

Successors don't get to use Warlord Traits, characters, or Relics.

 

They just get the Chapter Tactics and Strategem.

 

For example, my homebrew Raven Guard successor has SFTS and the -1 to hit, but they cannot take Shrike, the Raven's Fury, or Silent Stalker.

[Brother Crimson]

I know a lot of people hate what I will say but if you are undecided on which chapter to choose, make your own unique paint scheme, read a few books play a couple of games with each chapter then choose one if the chapter and get a background of your army to be a successor of that chapter.

 

You are already planning to use generic characters anyway.

[Race Bannon]

Hate?  Naw man, that is a very appropriate alternative :tu:  A homebrew (DIY) Chapter allows for extreme flexibility while using copious amounts of creativity.  ALSO, it allows someone to "counts-as" almost any Named Chapter (depending on local meta and tournament scene [if theat's their thing]).

 

:tu:

[Dosjetka]

Regarding the Crimson Fists, they have their own relic and warlord trait. Though the point still stands for other successor Chapters.

 

Brother Crimson's suggestion is a good one. :tu:

[Aothaine]

Hate?  Naw man, that is a very appropriate alternative   A homebrew (DIY) Chapter allows for extreme flexibility while using copious amounts of creativity.  ALSO, it allows someone to "counts-as" almost any Named Chapter (depending on local meta and tournament scene [if theat's their thing]).

 

 

Yeah this might be the best path forward. Maybe make them Quartered Red and Blue so I can easily justify them being a Blood Angel successor in one game but an Ultramarines successor in another. The only problem then becomes that I cannot use most of the decent relics and warlord traits. Hmmm...

[Race Bannon]

 

Yeah this might be the best path forward. Maybe make them Quartered Red and Blue so I can easily justify them being a Blood Angel successor in one game but an Ultramarines successor in another. The only problem then becomes that I cannot use most of the decent relics and warlord traits. Hmmm...

 

 

Bump relics and traits man.  If you can win without them, then you are the better player.

 

Blue and red quartered?  Like ... the Brazen Claws?!?!?!

[MARK0SIAN]

For what it’s worth I would say Raven Guard or Imperial Fists for the chapter tactics. The benefit of the Raven Guard one is obvious but the ignores cover one is also really good.

 

Just a slight word of warning on the imperial fists one. It can be a slight double edged sword in some cases. Because you ignore their cover, units have got no incentive to stick to cover which can result in them playing more aggressively than they otherwise might because they’ve got nothing to lose by abandoning cover and moving towards you. It’s something I’ve done to good effect against IF opponents and has also happened to me on occasion.

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

Bump relics and traits man.  If you can win without them, then you are the better player.

 

Blue and red quartered?  Like ... the Brazen Claws?!?!?!

 

 

Ohh yeah I was also thinking about maybe making it blue and red checkered on half the armor and then white on the other half. I'll have to run some tests and see if I can come up with something that won't give people a headache looking at it lol

 

 

For what it’s worth I would say Raven Guard or Imperial Fists for the chapter tactics. The benefit of the Raven Guard one is obvious but the ignores cover one is also really good.

 

Just a slight word of warning on the imperial fists one. It can be a slight double edged sword in some cases. Because you ignore their cover, units have got no incentive to stick to cover which can result in them playing more aggressively than they otherwise might because they’ve got nothing to lose by abandoning cover and moving towards you. It’s something I’ve done to good effect against IF opponents and has also happened to me on occasion.

 

 Very good point here. I do really like the Imperial Fists colors as well. The bright yellow looks amazing!

[robofish7591]

As far as warlord traits and relics... just use counts as!  For example, if you paint your army up as Novamarines.  Normally, you would not be able to take the warlord trait or relic from their parent chapter* (Ultramarines), but you could just use keyword Ultramarines instead of keyword Novamarines.  They would just be Ultramarines painted in quartered white and blue instead of all blue.

 

 

*which, honestly, I think is a horrible, horrible rule since it limits people's creativity.  I would much rather see people painting armies up in successor and homebrew chapters than everyone playing the same 1st founding chapters all the time.

[BluejayJunior]

Agree with robofish. As long as you're not using a successors special character or relic or something (which wouldn't be a problem when creating your own chapter), counts-as is perfectly fine. 

I would probably go with the Raven Guard tactics. I think it would fit a shooty list like yours pretty well. But IF is also good if you play in an area that uses a lot terrain/cover. 

[Aothaine]

Fair enough. So I'll go with a successor and use the shoulder pads from shapeways: 

 

Hidden Content

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/4MKSLKR2S/roaring-lions-gen7-standard-shoulder-x10?optionId=57342386&li=marketplace

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/K33VLAPAF/roaring-lion-terminator-left-shoulder-x10?optionId=60166308&li=marketplace

 

 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@h1WJF_iajok.hJy5U@@@@@@@hf85i..@@..@__@@@@______@@_____@@@@@.h1VNS______@@.____.iakk7&

 

Paint the chapter badge in white for battle line, and Gold for elites. Could easily cover for Imperial Fists, Ultramarines and stretch into Blood Angels.

 

 

Storm Shields: https://www.shapeways.com/product/FUXQRDEWH/10x-alliance-lions-marine-boarding-shields-w-hand?optionId=62420169&li=marketplace

 

3D Lion Shoulder Guard for HQ: https://www.shapeways.com/product/J3AJ79FEX/lion-shoulders-pair-x1?optionId=40877603&li=marketplace

[Rogue]

I’ve always gone that way - my marines are a homemade colour scheme (roughly quartered green and black), and over the editions have been Dark Angels, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, and currently Ultramarines.

 

None of my opponents (casual friendly games) have an issue with it - I tend to change for a new edition, and then stick, so I’m not chopping and changing rule-sets every time we play, either.

 

And it means I get to try out different rules, characters and units every so often.

[Dracos]

Love it. No clue how you crazies can paint quarters. Big props to guys like you and "Tank".

 

Looks like there should be a Celestial Lion story connection also :)

[Schlitzaf]

As far as warlord traits and relics... just use counts as! For example, if you paint your army up as Novamarines. Normally, you would not be able to take the warlord trait or relic from their parent chapter* (Ultramarines), but you could just use keyword Ultramarines instead of keyword Novamarines. They would just be Ultramarines painted in quartered white and blue instead of all blue.

 

 

*which, honestly, I think is a horrible, horrible rule since it limits people's creativity. I would much rather see people painting armies up in successor and homebrew chapters than everyone playing the same 1st founding chapters all the time.

It’s that way to prevent successors from having cake and eating it too. Like if someone wants to use a chapter like Red Scorpions, then they don’t get the warlord trait and relic of the actual (named) chapter. And furthermore, it’s important to not forget that;

A successor chapter doesn’t come with any of the restrictions of their parent chapter. A BT successor Chapter can legally use librarians for example. And secondly, this means for non-Ultra Successors named characters, you are not stuck with a mediocre warlord trait and can take one of the generic 6 instead. And Relic wise it does kinda suck, but the generic ones are solid enough

[Kisada]

I support the idea of a custom chapter so that you can use them with whichever rules you like ... don't pigeon hole yourself into just one chapter's rules.

[Aothaine]

Thanks again everyone!

 

 

Love it. No clue how you crazies can paint quarters. Big props to guys like you and "Tank".

 

Looks like there should be a Celestial Lion story connection also

 

Going to be keeping the parent chapter secret. The story so far is that Guilliman had these guys go a different way than with the crusade. They are also more focused on defending the Imperium and not the Emperor. They were about back in the old days and knew the emperor did not want to be worshipped as a deity. So they are a little less zealous and more focused on the end game. Kind of how I view my limited knowledge of Ultramarines... more of a Roman Legion type chapter. Still working on it lol! 

 

But thanks again everyone!