Input wanted on hard-hitting, high damage options

[Angel of Solitude]

Earlier this week, I got tabled by a T'au army. I was running a mainly Ravenwing list with a Hellblaster/Azrael support bubble, and a Dark Talon for good measure. The reason why I got tabled was because I had lots of high-volume but low damage/AP firing, and wasn't able to get my Hellblasters anywhere in range of the T'au gunline.

 

In hindsight, what I am generally missing is a source of high-strength/high damage weapons. I'm playing through a lot of possibilities, but as this will mean opening up the wallet, I want to ensure I make the right choice. Thus I would greatly appreciate the input of those far more experienced than me!

 

So, options that I have been considering:

 

Dreadnoughts.

• Twin lascannon/missile launcher, go venerable and you pretty much auto-hit thanks to Grim Resolve, and have a LT to give wound-re-roll support.
• Mortis with twin-autocannon, great damage output, but no venerable option and poor AP.
• Contemptor with twin-autocannon, 5++ save as well as 2+ hits. Expensive to purchase!

Landspeeders

• Squadron of 3 to give nice 20" movement, multi-meltas for anti-tank.
• Unsure how effective land speeders are in this version

Bike Squad

• Meltaguns on bike squad, multi-melta on attack bike. Synergies with Ravenwing structure.
• Need to get very close to the enemy to be effective due to short range of melta

Predator

• Predator autocannon and two lascannon variant.
• More durable than dreadnought, but doesn't benefit from Grim Resolve.

Other options will also be considered too...I'm a bit stuck at the moment with this!

 

Cheers

[sneakybamsen]

Lascannon devastators with ablative wounds. They make good use of your existing azrael gunline. That said, I'm puzzled you say you lack high damage output, though if range was for some reason an issue for your hellblasters, that's part of the explanation. That said, people who have faced our plasma weapons know what to kill first - hellblasters, unless of course they're fielding a horde army with no big vehicles or monsters.

 

Personally I don't field primaris, as the fluff doesn't fit the Unforgiven, and that is enough to put me off, so even for tournament play (not top tier stuff I normally attend), I'll be without primaris. No doubt hellblasters are better than plasma devastators, but I'll live without the former.

 

I assume you brought a full squad of hellblasters with the standard 30" plasma gun, azrael, ancient and lieutenant? Then scouts for screens, some ravenwing boosting HQ(s), talon, shroud and other goodies? If you had a darkshroud, what element did it support? Also, I am not sure on this, but aren't tau able to get so much +hit that the shroud stops having much effect?

[Angel of Solitude]

Thanks for the thoughts @sneakybamsen. In the game I suffered twofold with the Hellblasters: (1) we played long-ways, placing me out of range of the T'au gunline but them in range and (2) Hellblasters were the first target. Lit up by max markerlights, I was on +1 to hit and cover saves ignored.

 

I had thought to try and charge with my bikes, but alas in doing so you incur the wrath of overwatch from everything. I was just sat there thinking: if I need to take out high-toughness, high-wound units out at range, what do I have? Not a lot.

[SnakeChisler]

High volume for me normally comes from Sammael and the Talon Master in speeders.

 

We play with a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain and a decent amount overall so the Parking lot doesn't dominate forcing you to move to create lanes of fire.

Watch any of the Warhammer World comp reports and you'll see tables brimming with LOS blocking and cover.

 

Everything hides behind terrain T1 if it Can especially Hellblasters moving forward and covering the 2 speeders which cant be targeted unless their the closest.

[march10k]

Lascannon devastators with ablative wounds. They make good use of your existing azrael gunline.

 

This.  Totally this.  I run eight twinlinked lascannons this way.  Accept no substitute.

 

 

 

 

No doubt hellblasters are better than plasma devastators, but I'll live without the former.

 

I doubt they're better.  D3 shots at 36" range beats the pants off of 1 shot at 30" and 2 at 15"!

[facmanpob]

Dreadnoughts.

• Mortis with twin-autocannon, great damage output, but no venerable option and poor AP.

Other options will also be considered too...I'm a bit stuck at the moment with this!

 

Cheers

 

Just a quick one on the Dread option. You can take a Venerable Dreadnought with two autocannon arms. Check out the Designers Commentary, final page. It explains how you can use the codex entry of a unit (e.g. the Ven Dread) with weapon options that are only available in the Index version of that unit.

 

I like melta bike squads with an attached MMAB - work well when they hit, but be prepared for them to miss a lot too!

 

On a different point, if you were playing Hammer and Anvil deployment, and the Tau gunline could hit you along the length of the table, my guess is you need more LoS blocking terrain. Getting tabled is no fun, and its especially no fun when the tabletop is geared up for it due to a lack of terrain.

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Dreadnoughts.

• Mortis with twin-autocannon, great damage output, but no venerable option and poor AP.

Other options will also be considered too...I'm a bit stuck at the moment with this!

 

Cheers

 

Just a quick one on the Dread option. You can take a Venerable Dreadnought with two autocannon arms. Check out the Designers Commentary, final page. It explains how you can use the codex entry of a unit (e.g. the Ven Dread) with weapon options that are only available in the Index version of that unit.

 

 

Oh very nice - thanks for pointing that out to me! That opens up the possibility of either 2xTwin Autocannon or 1xTwin Autocannon and 1xTwin Lascannon. Niiiice!

 

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Lascannon devastators with ablative wounds. They make good use of your existing azrael gunline.

 

This.  Totally this.  I run eight twinlinked lascannons this way.  Accept no substitute.

What do you mean by twinlinked? I thought Devs could only carry a single lascannon?

[march10k]

Azrael.  He lets them reroll misses AND gives them 4++.  Park them in the upper floors of a three story ruin, add a lieutenant, bubble wrap with scouts, and park a darkshroud around the back. 

[Dark_Master]

Index Techmarine with Conversion Beamer?

 

Hide him in a gun line and he’s untargetable

 

DM

[Interrogator Stobz]

Relic Contemptor Dread with two twin lascannon and a cyclone missile launcher is a nice fire support option too, but a bit expensive.

[Vector Strike]

Basically, you're lacking AT firepower. Lucky you! I'm creating an excel spreadsheet calculating exactly the most cost-effective AT model and build we have in our disposal (including FW). Riptides have a category just for themselves (T7 2+/3++)!

 

I'll post it in the thread http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347165-what%E2%80%99s-our-most-point-efficient-units/ today

[sneakybamsen]

 

 

No doubt hellblasters are better than plasma devastators, but I'll live without the former.

 

I doubt they're better.  D3 shots at 36" range beats the pants off of 1 shot at 30" and 2 at 15"!

 

 

Well, 10 shots at 30" is more than 8 (average for 4 plasma cannons), although at 36". I like my plasmadevs a LOT, they've been utterly lethal in my last few games (except for one vs khorne daemons). But hellblasters are tougher, and don't suffer from moving, so in time, they actually get to cover more of the field. They are the go to plasma unit for us, best we have. Neither plasma devs, black knights or inceptors match them for sustained plasma death, especially not when using ancient, lieutenant and azzy.

[Interrogator Stobz]

You do get 2x5 man dev squads and 8PCs for only 18 more points than 10 Hellblaaters though.

 

16@36” is better than 10@30”, but still not as damaging as 20@15”.

Mobility issues can go either way so I like both units (childish Primaris hatred aside)

[ValourousHeart]

Landspeeders

• Squadron of 3 to give nice 20" movement, multi-meltas for anti-tank.
• Unsure how effective land speeders are in this version

 

Speeders are very effective in this edition.

 

In past editions, they were weak against assault.  In this editions, they are better in close combat than most vehicles.  Each speeder fights like 2 tactical marines, which is great when compared to a Rhino, but is terrible when compared to a squad of 10 tactical marines.  So don't forget to swing in CC, but be careful of units that are good at dealing with big monsters in CC.

 

The 20-inch movement for 3+ speeders is great, but if you want to keep that speed advantage for the full game, you need to take 4+ speeders in the squad.  Vehicles, in general, are more survivable this edition, but at T5 w/ 6 wounds each, if your opponent is determined, it isn't hard to knock 6 wounds off of your 3 speeder squadron to slow them down.  Much more difficult to knock off 12 or 18 wounds from your 4 or 5 speeder squadron.

 

Another advantage speeders have over some other vehicles is the lack of a damage table.  Speeders are just as effective at 1 wound left as they are at 6 wounds left.

[Interrogator Stobz]

How do you arm your Speeders VH?

[march10k]

 

Speeders are very effective in this edition.

 

 

I'm sold.  I'll have to dust off my two tornadoes and finish my two typhoons.  The Typhoons were built/painted to minimum standard to support mechanized Deathwing in the 2013 Ard Boyz campaign, some parts like the bumpers and sensor vanes are still on the sprue, lol. 

 

What do you think about adding a pair of cheap speeders to the two squadrons?  I'm thinking heavy bolters for the tornado squadron and multimeltas for the typhoons.  Save the points on assault cannons and missile launchers, splitting the difference between "they're just ablative wounds" and contributing to the fight.

 

Geez...Ravenwing has always been the neglected arm of my Unforgiven force, if I'm going to have nine speeders (including a shroud), perhaps it's time to expand beyond a single maxed out bike squadron, too...

[ValourousHeart]

How do you arm your Speeders VH?

 

Inventory...

 

Sableclaw

Talon Master

Heavy Bolter & Assault Cannon x 4

Heavy Bolter & Typhoon Missile Launcher x 4

Multi-Melta & Assault Cannon x 2

Multi-Melta & Heavy Flamer x 2

 

I generally take them in the following order when points are limited.

1. Sableclaw
2. HB/AC x 2
3. HB/TML
4. MM/AC 1 - 2
5. HB/TML
6. Talon Master
7. HB/AC 1 - 2
8. HB/TML 1 - 2
9. MM/HF 1 - 2

I've finally got in the habit of painting every weekend, been at it since the beginning of the year.

I'm on pace to get all of my speeders plus a couple other vehicles painted by the end of the year.

I'm a bit superstitious about posting pictures as I feel that might rob me of my energy to finish.

But I'm getting excited about finally showing off my progress.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

Speeders are very effective in this edition.

 

 

I'm sold.  I'll have to dust off my two tornadoes and finish my two typhoons.  The Typhoons were built/painted to minimum standard to support mechanized Deathwing in the 2013 Ard Boyz campaign, some parts like the bumpers and sensor vanes are still on the sprue, lol. 

 

What do you think about adding a pair of cheap speeders to the two squadrons?  I'm thinking heavy bolters for the tornado squadron and multimeltas for the typhoons.  Save the points on assault cannons and missile launchers, splitting the difference between "they're just ablative wounds" and contributing to the fight.

 

Geez...Ravenwing has always been the neglected arm of my Unforgiven force, if I'm going to have nine speeders (including a shroud), perhaps it's time to expand beyond a single maxed out bike squadron, too...

 

My thought process on arming speeder squadrons comes down to AC vs TML.

If I want the unit midfield then I go for AC.

If I want the unit in the backfield then I go for TML.

 

In a pure RW list, I try to keep a balance of 2 midfield to 1 backfield.

 

Since the AC squads are going to be up close they get the MM and HF because of the range.

Since the TML squads are going to be far away they get the HB, again because of the range.

 

This also means that both units can deal with infantry or armor.

I do that because I'm playing a very low model count list, and it means I have built in a little forgiveness about getting the right unit in the right spot.

The only thing this doesn't account for is poor dice rolls, but there isn't much you can do about that.

 

When I field all of my speeders my backfield squad gets the 4 HB/TML speeders.

The 2 midfield squads get 2 x HB/AC, 1 x MM/AC and 1 MM/HF.

[facmanpob]

 

Speeders are very effective in this edition.

 

I'm sold.  I'll have to dust off my two tornadoes and finish my two typhoons.  The Typhoons were built/painted to minimum standard to support mechanized Deathwing in the 2013 Ard Boyz campaign, some parts like the bumpers and sensor vanes are still on the sprue, lol. 

 

What do you think about adding a pair of cheap speeders to the two squadrons?  I'm thinking heavy bolters for the tornado squadron and multimeltas for the typhoons.  Save the points on assault cannons and missile launchers, splitting the difference between "they're just ablative wounds" and contributing to the fight.

 

Geez...Ravenwing has always been the neglected arm of my Unforgiven force, if I'm going to have nine speeders (including a shroud), perhaps it's time to expand beyond a single maxed out bike squadron, too...

 

Interestingly, I've dropped from 2 Typhoons to zero speeders in my 1500 point Ravenwing list, as they have really been underwhelming for me. I just have the Talonmaster in a speeder as my HQ and run a Ven Dread and a devastator squad in the backfield, with the rest of the force made up of bikes, Attack bikes and a Dark Talon.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

Speeders are very effective in this edition.

 

I'm sold.  I'll have to dust off my two tornadoes and finish my two typhoons.  The Typhoons were built/painted to minimum standard to support mechanized Deathwing in the 2013 Ard Boyz campaign, some parts like the bumpers and sensor vanes are still on the sprue, lol. 

 

What do you think about adding a pair of cheap speeders to the two squadrons?  I'm thinking heavy bolters for the tornado squadron and multimeltas for the typhoons.  Save the points on assault cannons and missile launchers, splitting the difference between "they're just ablative wounds" and contributing to the fight.

 

Geez...Ravenwing has always been the neglected arm of my Unforgiven force, if I'm going to have nine speeders (including a shroud), perhaps it's time to expand beyond a single maxed out bike squadron, too...

 

Interestingly, I've dropped from 2 Typhoons to zero speeders in my 1500 point Ravenwing list, as they have really been underwhelming for me. I just have the Talonmaster in a speeder as my HQ and run a Ven Dread and a devastator squad in the backfield, with the rest of the force made up of bikes, Attack bikes and a Dark Talon.

 

The typhoons are the most haphazard of my speeders as well.  Second only to the HF option, which is really only there in case I get charged.  I find that it is more reliable to deal a ton of 1 damage shots than rely on 1 high damage kill shot.  That is why I generally have 2-4 AC for every TML.

 

If you are only planning to bring 2 speeders and a Talonmaster, then you would probably be better served by having the 2 armed with HB/AC, as those will get the most benefit out of the Talonmaster's aura.

 

I might also suggest that you try Sableclaw instead of the Talonmaster.  There are definitely great reasons to take the Talonmaster, ignoring cover for Ravenwing, reroll 1s to wound, choice of warlord trait, relic and slight savings on points.  That model is definitely amazing. 

 

However, I go for Sableclaw first because I find to hit rolls are more important than to wound rolls.  More shots that hit means more average wounds.  And you can still grab a relic and/or warlord trait and toss them on another character.  Sableclaw also comes standard with something equivalent to the Heavenfell Blade relic, meaning the points difference from Sableclaw to the Talonmaster is well worth the CP you would spend to get a second relic in your list.   So, in the end, you are trading Ravenwing units ignoring cover for a second Heavenfell Blade and more accuracy from all your units.  And that is just a little bit better.

[JJD]

Going back to the plasma cannon vs lascannon dev debate is there any play in a mixed squad of 2 and two.

 

I ask as the box comes with only 2 of each option so for someone who doesn’t own any devs yet this might be a good starting point.

[ValourousHeart]

Going back to the plasma cannon vs lascannon dev debate is there any play in a mixed squad of 2 and two.

 

I ask as the box comes with only 2 of each option so for someone who doesn’t own any devs yet this might be a good starting point.

Each of the heavy, special, combi and CCW weapons have a situation in which it shines, so you might want to make the most out of that Devastator box, by buying a 10 man tactical box to go with it and making all the Heavy weapon and Sternguard / Seargent models you can.

[facmanpob]

Going back to the plasma cannon vs lascannon dev debate is there any play in a mixed squad of 2 and two.

I would stick with 1 plasma cannon, as you can use the Sergeant's signum to apply the +1 to hit to it every turn and be safe from supercharge overheats. Recently I've been running 1 plasma cannon, 1 lascannon and 2 missile launchers to good effect, with a Sergeatn, ablative marine and armorium cherub to round out the squad.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

keep in mind Tau can be brutal to any kind of armor marines have on the field........kinda of their schtick.