Kill Team Compositions/Builds

[Moostick]

I think Zogash and myself have been pretty clear, so not really much else to say. We aren't arguing about how the rules are right now; we clearly said you're right.

 

To reiterate in another way, if you believe a group of bikers split from a Vet unit being able to vault an up to 13" vertical wall is rules as intended, then there's not much to discuss.

 

If myself and a few others here got it right away,then I'd assume at least some opponents who witness this will as well. As noted, I wouldn't argue against it; you'd get a shrug, an "ok" and an figurative eyeroll.

[Xisor]

The rules 'discrepancy' (its not really a discrepancy at all, is it) really highlights to me one thing above all else.

 

The fixation with "mixed squads" in Deathwatch design/raison-d'être is logically incompatible with the central design of 8th Edition.

 

It's not an irresolvable difference - they've resolved it, albeit (in my esteem) inelegantly. For me, the 'in keeping with 8th design principles' is pretty clear.

 

That is: the separate/distinct small units should have some useful auras.

 

E.g.

Bikes: count as rolled-6 when running, if it takes the unit within 6" of the bike(s).

Vanguard: re-roll charges when within 6" of a Vanguard, or charging a unit who is within 1" of a Vanguard.

 

Etc.

 

So the teams still form, but the units/models/datasheets are simple.

 

Add a little army special rule letting each Patrol Detachment with fewer than 10 models 'count as Killteam' for deployment purposes, and bob's your uncle.

 

------

 

In terms of *how things actually are* it sounds like the 'one of everyone, but cheap' is a good approach. E.g. 5+Bike+VV+Termi, and similarly for Primaris.

 

Depending on how you outfit your veterans/Primaris, you can optimise further, especially if you want specific edge cases (a 4 bike/1 vanguard combat squad).

 

But gaining the rules from minimal additions seems a bit of a no-brainer. Or perhaps not no-brainer, but optimal *and* simple to work with.

[Vel'Cona]

=][= Civility between Frater will be strictly enforced.  If you have a personal issue with another forum-member, take it to PMs. =][=

[MoGuy]

I've upgraded my Stalker Squad to 6x Stalker Vets + Heavy Bolter. I just love these guys. They can reliably strip wounds from vehicles and help cleaning up other stuff.

 

Another Kill Team I am working on:

 

Aquila Kill Team

 

Sarge w/ CS and SB

Blackshield w/ CS and SB

3x Vets w/ CS and SB

Vet w/ SS and SB

Vet w/ CS and Shotgun

Termi w/ SB and PS

 

I'll drop these guys in via Teleportarium. They can put out 28(!) special ammo shots in RFR (+ the Shotgun which is in there just because I have the model left over). They also hit with 22 S4 attacks in melee, 2 of which are at -3 AP. Their volume of shots is great enough to destroy hordes or drown MEQs in saves. They are also surprisingly good in melee against softer targets. If you pop the "Death to the Xenos" stratagem any 6+ to-hit will generate an additional attack. You can lay the hurt on Boyz, Wyches, Genestealers, Harlequin Troupes, other Marines and even Vehicles (if you softened them up with shooting before). 

 

This squad can also take some punishment. The Termi will simply absorb all small arms fire/melee attacks and anything with an AP will get tanked by the Stormshield guy.

 

I would also like to get your oppinons on bikes. I dislike taking 5 of them with 5 Vets and splitting them up because those 5 Vets are too squishy on their own and won't do much work. So instead I would like to run regular bike squads. 

Do you go for MSU of 2x3 bikes or a single bigger squad?

[leth]

One thing someone pointed out, and I had not considered, is that unless your kill team is primarily focused on CC? Dont take a black shield.

 

Because of heroic intervention, if they get within 3 we have to engage.  That means that if an opponent does not want to get overwatched, they can just advance to within 3.  Sure they are not eating the charge, but they dont get shot in the face. I killed 13 plague bearers on overwatch with re-rolls from the watchmaster and wounding on 2s(this was with aggressors, but you get the idea). We then have to fallback and so they get the same end result with many fewer casualties. 

[Lemondish]

Agreed with leth

 

Without a Vanguard vet in that squad, you'll find the enemy can silence it easily by using the heroic intervention against you.

 

I'm a fan of the Stormbolter veteran build with a Terminator and a couple storm shields, though. It's been awesome for me, so you have the foundations of a good build.

[Chris521]

That actually brings up something that I've been wondering about.  Although the heroic intervention is required, the rules for heroic intervention say up to 3 inches as long as they move closer to the nearest enemy model.  So cant we just give a very slight nudge towards the enemy and call it a day?

[leth]

I suppose so, if they get to exactly 1 outside then it wouldnt work but just getting to within 3 wouldnt trigger it enough to force combat.  So it makes it less of a liability than I thought. 

 

I think Terminators are fantastic alternative to bikes if you are not looking to get T5. Basically its terminators if not bikes. 10 points more per dude but fill the same role slightly better.  I might just do it to avoid the headaches in the first place. 

 

Until we get an FAQ one way or the other I am dropping bikes from my Killteams.  They are way better but its just not worth the headaches and uncertainity at every event/all the dirty looks.

 

Current Veterans kill team Idea is as follows

 

3x Veterans - Storm Bolters, 2x Storm Shields

Black Shield  - Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer

Watch Sgt - Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer

Vanguard Vet - Chainsword, Storm Shield

3x Terminator - Storm Bolter and Power Maul(1 Power Ax)

 

283 points, but it is very durable, I can allocate shots/wounds based on what is most efficient for keeping the models alive, can fall back and shoot while still haveing a solid CC threat.   -1 on the axes/str 6 is a sweet spot for taking on things like custodes bikes, bloat drones, wounding T3 on 2s while having str 6 in CC means those T8 vehicles are wounded on 5s and most light vehicles are wounded on 3s/4s. Thunderhammers make it so I am wounding on 2s against T4 and 3s against my problem units.  Helps fill the hole that custodes bikers were filling. 

[vigitant]

That actually brings up something that I've been wondering about.  Although the heroic intervention is required, the rules for heroic intervention say up to 3 inches as long as they move closer to the nearest enemy model.  So cant we just give a very slight nudge towards the enemy and call it a day?

 You can, but they can always move to "Just past 1 inch" and then youre locked in without getting to overwatch.  Personally I dont think the one extra attack is worth the risk with out shooty teams.

[Mobius0288]

That actually brings up something that I've been wondering about.  Although the heroic intervention is required, the rules for heroic intervention say up to 3 inches as long as they move closer to the nearest enemy model.  So cant we just give a very slight nudge towards the enemy and call it a day?

 

Ya that does bring up a valid point. The rule does say up to 3"... so our units with blackshields would have to move....up to 3".... but it doesn't say you have to enter close combat by being within 1," it just says you have to be closer then you were to the nearest enemy model.

 

Hmm...

[BrotherAetherick]

I think the big 10 man kill teams that have a vanguard vet should always take a black shield. Heroic intervention only happens after all charges so they can't turn off overwatch. And if they really wanted to turn off your shooting they could just pile in and put your vets in combat.

 

Your heroic intervention move also lets you move before units activate (and pile in) so you can shuffle your guys around to avoid getting your kill teams tri locked in case there are some gaps from casualties from the previous phases (psychic/shooting) and then you can just fall back and unleash hell.

[vigitant]

I think the big 10 man kill teams that have a vanguard vet should always take a black shield. Heroic intervention only happens after all charges so they can't turn off overwatch. And if they really wanted to turn off your shooting they could just pile in and put your vets in combat.

 

Your heroic intervention move also lets you move before units activate (and pile in) so you can shuffle your guys around to avoid getting your kill teams tri locked in case there are some gaps from casualties from the previous phases (psychic/shooting) and then you can just fall back and unleash hell.

If theyre charging your KT, of course you get overwatch.  But then you dont likely heroicly intervene(assuming they made their charge against the KT).

 

As I understand it, heroic intervention happens at the end of the charge phase, but doesnt require charging units.  so moving to just outside 1" would trigger.

[Kimbo]

Im gonna Jump on this thread with some questions regarding unit composition.

 

After playing with the codex:

 

- any tip on how to build my first kill-team with normal marines? I got my primaris compositions down already..

 

- Do you have a good "go to" comp?

- Min or max squads?

- How to you deploy your units? flyer,

Rhino etc

[anarchistscourge]

I put mine in a Corvus because it’s an awesome model. I play 3 vets with frag, 3 with Storm Bolters and Chainswords, one Storm Bolter and shield, van vet with pair of claws, watch sergeant and black shield with power swords and storm bolsters. It’s expensive at 286pts for the squad and 257 for the Corvus ...... but it wrecks face when you put the watch master in there too

[ashc]

This will all depend on what you want your squad to do and what role to fill - backfield, midfield, in a transport, or teleportarium strategy.

 

A nice backfield team takes all stalker boltguns and chainswords with maybe the odd stormshield and a missile launcher or heavy bolter to use those specific strategems to snipe wounds off nearly finished targets.

 

Midfield teams are currently favouring stormbolter/chainswords, a couple of storm shields and frag cannons for thinning hordes.

 

Teleportarium teams could run the above or swap stormbolters for combimeltas to deal maximum damage to priority targets on arrival.

 

People aren't really running close combat squads as far as I'm aware - DW are a mid-to-close-range firepower army - making the most of SIA which is more powerful than what we can do in combat - although if anyone can prove me wrong then I would be happy to see some CC teams!

 

Finally with regards to whether to min/max or not there are two camps - go min to get as many CP as possible, or go max to maximise the use of every CP - No clear winner on that right now but it shows good flexibility.

[Delta.Skies]

I really only have one kill team and they are deep strike. With power lances and stormbolters. 1 sarge. Blackshield with chainsword and stormbolter. Two stormshields with stormbolters. 2 termies with power swords and stormbolters. 1 VV with bolt pistol and chainsword, might switch to plasma pistol and two frag cannons.

One unit I'm buckin on the system with bolters and power axes with 1 shield. 5 vets

One unit with stalkers & chainswords, stormshield and heavy bolter.

Would want to throw combis in the mix but they are expensive and if I was to throw them on there would be on my termies but they are taking the cannon fodder so its iffy.

[Lemondish]

Im gonna Jump on this thread with some questions regarding unit composition.

 

After playing with the codex:

 

- any tip on how to build my first kill-team with normal marines? I got my primaris compositions down already..

 

- Do you have a good "go to" comp?

- Min or max squads?

- How to you deploy your units? flyer,

Rhino etc

My favourite go to Veteran squad is...

 

- 4 Vets with storm bolters and chainswords

- 2 Vets with storm bolters and storm shields

- 2 Vets with frag cannons

- a Terminator with storm bolter and power sword

- a Vanguard Veteran with bolt possible and chainsword (the BP is almost always used for tempest shells)

 

I like max unit sizes with DW very much, especially when it comes to SIA empowered storm bolters. They make very good use of doctrines and other stratagems like the Teleportarium, which is how I deploy them.

 

This unit can also fit into a Corvus.

 

As a test I'll be running a few 6 man squads with some combi-meltas in assault cannon Razorbacks in my next game. We'll see how they hold up...

 

They're really honestly only going to be there because I think they look so bloody cool. I think they probably aren't all that efficient...

 

But that build looks like...

 

- Sarge with combi-melta and Xenophase

- 2 Vets with combi-melta and power swords

- 2 Vets with storm bolter and storm shields

- Black Sheep with Thunder Hammer and storm shield

 

It's expensive for not a lot of bodies, comes with an assault cannon Razorback as I mentioned with storm bolter and hunter killer missile. I just think the whole squad looks so neat.

[ashc]

I'm seriously just considering putting a list together just of model loadouts worth building so that you can be flexible in building your teams in the future.

 

Something like:

 

5 intercessors with bolt rifles

5 intercessors with autos

3-4 bolt aggressors

1-2 of each inceptor loadout

1-2 reivers

5-10 hellblasters

 

For veterans:

4 stalker bolt guns

Missile launcher

Heavy bolter

Infernum heavy bolter

2-4 frag cannons

5 stormbolter/chainsword

2-4 stormbolter/stormshield

2-4 combimelta/chainsword

Black shield

Vv with bolt pistol/chainsword

Terminator with stormbolter/power sword

 

By owning that selection of models you can build a number of different but effective configurations. I'm sure there's more to add in fact, so any suggestions are welcome.

[MadEdric]

For Vet squads, I have three types.

Squad 1: Black Shield w/power sword, storm bolter

                Sgt w/power sword, storm bolter

                Terminator w/powerfist, storm bolter

                 Vanguard Vet w/bolt pistol, storm shield

                 x2 Vets w/storm bolter, storm shield

                 x2 Vets w/storm bolter, chain sword

                 x2 Vets w/fragcannon

 

Squad 2: Black Shield w/thunder hammer, bolter

               Sgt w/power sword, bolter

               Terminator w/powerfist, storm bolter

               Vanguard Vet w/thunder hammer, storm shield

                x2 Vets w/storm shield, bolter

                Vet w/bolter, thunder hammer

                Vet w/bolter, power sword

                Vet w/fragcannon

 

Squad 3: Black Shield w/stalker bolter, chain sword

               Sgt w/stalker bolter, chain sword

               x2 Vets w/stalker bolter, storm shield

               x2 Vets w/stalker bolter, chain sword

               Vet w/heavy bolter

 

I'll also add other squads as points allow, usually a missile launcher squad with bare bones bolter and chain sword vets.

 

Intercessors I'm running two squads with 5 intercessors, 2 hellblasters, 1 inceptor.

 

Squad 1 and the intercessor squads will arrive via teleportarium. Squad 2 rides in the corvis with either a chaplain or watch captain.

I'm wondering if squad 2 should focus more on the stabby side, make the 2 vets with storm shields have power swords instead of bolters.

[LilNath]

Okay, so I finally got to test my Primaris kill teams today and was super impressed. I'm running 2 squads of:

 

5 heavy intercessors

4 heavy hellblasters

1 boltstorm agressor

 

And they were really solid. They are an investment at 291pts per kill team, but they seem very powerful. They absolutely melt MEQs and can really dent larger tanks. SIA on the heavy bolt rifles is really really good and makes the intercessors more than just ablative wounds. Being able to walk these guys up the table was really good too for protecting objectives and other assets. I really recommend trying them out!

[Lemondish]

Okay, so I finally got to test my Primaris kill teams today and was super impressed. I'm running 2 squads of:

 

5 heavy intercessors

4 heavy hellblasters

1 boltstorm agressor

 

And they were really solid. They are an investment at 291pts per kill team, but they seem very powerful. They absolutely melt MEQs and can really dent larger tanks. SIA on the heavy bolt rifles is really really good and makes the intercessors more than just ablative wounds. Being able to walk these guys up the table was really good too for protecting objectives and other assets. I really recommend trying them out!

 

Interesting...I actually didn't like this build when I played it at all. 

 

I personally felt like the Aggressor was a waste of points given the unit wanted to be at range and so it barely got to shoot all game. Its main buff (removal of the movement penalty) was provided much cheaper when I swapped to the rapid fire weapon options. I really do not like the heavy weapons at all for anything Primaris. They don't actually provide you a range advantage given their natural aversion to being moved. Unless you add nearly 40 points to 'buff' them, they have essentially the same threat range as the rapid fire ones, with half the damage potential if something rushes you. 

 

In my previous games as codex marines (I painted up my DI force as blood ravens), the biggest weakness I had with Hellblasters was being tied down in combat and silenced by a fast moving unit. Did you find that the extra range with the heavy weapons made that unlikely?

 

Glad you're finding success with them! 

[LilNath]

 

Okay, so I finally got to test my Primaris kill teams today and was super impressed. I'm running 2 squads of:

 

5 heavy intercessors

4 heavy hellblasters

1 boltstorm agressor

 

And they were really solid. They are an investment at 291pts per kill team, but they seem very powerful. They absolutely melt MEQs and can really dent larger tanks. SIA on the heavy bolt rifles is really really good and makes the intercessors more than just ablative wounds. Being able to walk these guys up the table was really good too for protecting objectives and other assets. I really recommend trying them out!

 

Interesting...I actually didn't like this build when I played it at all. 

 

I personally felt like the Aggressor was a waste of points given the unit wanted to be at range and so it barely got to shoot all game. Its main buff (removal of the movement penalty) was provided much cheaper when I swapped to the rapid fire weapon options. I really do not like the heavy weapons at all for anything Primaris. They don't actually provide you a range advantage given their natural aversion to being moved. Unless you add nearly 40 points to 'buff' them, they have essentially the same threat range as the rapid fire ones, with half the damage potential if something rushes you. 

 

In my previous games as codex marines (I painted up my DI force as blood ravens), the biggest weakness I had with Hellblasters was being tied down in combat and silenced by a fast moving unit. Did you find that the extra range with the heavy weapons made that unlikely?

 

Glad you're finding success with them! 

 

I personally really liked the additional AP with the heavy weapons. I do think there are better options for hordes, but anything other than that it seemed strong. The Agressor is definitely not necessary, and if you are buffing with a watch master could probably be replaced with another Hellblaster and not be missed. I would like to try out the regular rapid fire variants too, as they also seem very strong.

 

They did not seem to have an issue being rushed, but that said against a horde list this could happen. The Agressors did do well at fending off a rabble of cultists though.

[Lemondish]

 

 

Okay, so I finally got to test my Primaris kill teams today and was super impressed. I'm running 2 squads of:

 

5 heavy intercessors

4 heavy hellblasters

1 boltstorm agressor

 

And they were really solid. They are an investment at 291pts per kill team, but they seem very powerful. They absolutely melt MEQs and can really dent larger tanks. SIA on the heavy bolt rifles is really really good and makes the intercessors more than just ablative wounds. Being able to walk these guys up the table was really good too for protecting objectives and other assets. I really recommend trying them out!

 

Interesting...I actually didn't like this build when I played it at all. 

 

I personally felt like the Aggressor was a waste of points given the unit wanted to be at range and so it barely got to shoot all game. Its main buff (removal of the movement penalty) was provided much cheaper when I swapped to the rapid fire weapon options. I really do not like the heavy weapons at all for anything Primaris. They don't actually provide you a range advantage given their natural aversion to being moved. Unless you add nearly 40 points to 'buff' them, they have essentially the same threat range as the rapid fire ones, with half the damage potential if something rushes you. 

 

In my previous games as codex marines (I painted up my DI force as blood ravens), the biggest weakness I had with Hellblasters was being tied down in combat and silenced by a fast moving unit. Did you find that the extra range with the heavy weapons made that unlikely?

 

Glad you're finding success with them! 

 

I personally really liked the additional AP with the heavy weapons. I do think there are better options for hordes, but anything other than that it seemed strong. The Agressor is definitely not necessary, and if you are buffing with a watch master could probably be replaced with another Hellblaster and not be missed. I would like to try out the regular rapid fire variants too, as they also seem very strong.

 

They did not seem to have an issue being rushed, but that said against a horde list this could happen. The Agressors did do well at fending off a rabble of cultists though.

 

 

The problem I had with the additional AP is that you match it with Kraken (since Kraken can't actually boost the heavy weapons at all). Mine weren't ever rushed by horde lists - they were usually flown into by things like wave serpents or shining spears. Fast units that could get into my deployment in a couple turns and silence my big guns were always the bane of my existence. One time my buddy flew a Valkyrie into them lol

 

In any case, glad you're finding use for them. I haven't had any luck :( 

 

I will rubber stamp the hell out of the rapid fire variants, though. The amount of times they've seriously murdered a unit of drop plasma thinking to pressure my backline is amazing, and even at 5 man squads of SIA bolt rifle goodness they've been reliable contributors. 

[UnkyHamHam]

I really love the T5 assault Fortis setup too. Aka 5x auto Intercessors, 4x Aggressors, and 1x Inceptor.

 

I was thinking of running a Reiver in place of one of the Aggressors, and keeping a Librarian close. Librarian will cast Might of Heroes on the Sergeant to maintain the T5 of the unit. And Reiver will just bring more utility for assaults.

[zero88]

Is there a reason why people are so fond for Power Swords? So much stuff has invulnerable buffs that I think paying a point extra for an Axe is well worth the added flexibility. I'll gladly give that marine a 5+ save if it means I'm wounding on a 3 instead of a 4