Marshal van Trapp Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 So with my first few games of playtesting my deathwatch (mostly proxying before I commit to a build) I have noticed a glaring flaw, lack of anti-tank firepower. I played a few games against primaris ultramarines, eldar, and custodes and the one thing I noticed was I have no real answers to their armor. The eldar player runs 2 serpents, a falcon and a warwalker squad; the ultramarines run dual redemptors and a repulsor; and the custodes are just custodes, hard nuts to crack supported by that weird hover tank thing. My first attempt of anti-tank was sprinkling some missile launchers in all my vet squads and using hellblasters as extra damage. This managed to kill the eldar falcon and one wave serpent but by the time I got through that I had only 1 missile left and couldn't deny the rest. Faired a bit better against the marines, killing the repulsor and crippling both redemptors. The custodes were simply something I had not encountered before and I wasn't sure what target priority to use which ended up costing me. I'm currently sitting with 0-2-1 with my pure deathwatch so I'm ready to try an allied force. I want to keep my allies fluffy but semi-competitive. My meta isn't a lot of amazing tournament players but they aren't pushovers either. I'm currently down to 2 choices, Admech or Tempestus, and they each have some pros and cons but I think I need some help. On one hand admech has some decent anti-tank punch, I also really like the fluff of admech and was planning on having some admech fluff tie in to my deathwatch already. On the other tempestus have a lot of good options and the added benefit of being able to deep strike without spending CP. Tl;dr - would tempestus or admech be better allies for filling the lacking anti-tank role in my deathwatch? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moostick Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Tempestus will primarily be close range infantry with meltas, and AM will be long range onagers. It will depend on which role you can support more because either one left alone will be picked off. Onager is probably more difficult for some opponents to deal with since they'll be backfield and they'll need to commit something to killing it; tempestus will be in the thick of things and are fragile. Alternatively, you can take a TLLC/ML venerable dreadnought. BS2 goes a long way, it doesn't degrade, and it's relatively cheap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5089364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Leviathan would be my choice storm cannon array or whatever its called or you could drop it in with a grav flux bombardment for damage 5 but d3 shots, dual storm cannons are giving you 10 shots each arm and he gets mission tactics. Another option is the scorpius Whirlwind but no mission tactics on it I steer away from random damage weapons for the most part the reason for taking an ml or Hb is the mortal wound strategems Ongar dune crawlers are OK but your d3 shots so back to random again Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5089421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 You could also try Primaris Hellblasters for this role, especially if using Teleportarium Strategem w/ stock Plasma Incinerator and/or escorted by a Watch Captain / Watch Master. Mathhammer (@ 15" or less) has them putting out 8.9 wounds a turn versus T7 (Supercharged, OFC) or 6.7 wounds versus T8, unsupported and with no Strategems used. Adding Mission Tactics/Doctrine Strategems adds even more potential damage, assuming you pick the appropriate Combat Roles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5089480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal van Trapp Posted May 23, 2018 Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 The other reason I wanted to go with one of those 2 is for the extremely cheap CP, I have a 1500 point list right now but its built out of 1 batallion (2 vet squads, 2 intercessors a watch master and a JP libby) so I need both anti tank and a cheap CP battery so splashing in admech or tempestus (2 of the cheapest batallions st like 200 points each) seemed to best way to add some anti tank firepower. Edit: a base admech batallion using the cheapest options is 199, its fluffy for my army and gives me 300 extra points to kit it out for tank hunting whereas the tempestus is 232 base and gives much less bang but gives me the ability to drop them wherever I want Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5089616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vigitant Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I'm currently considering coupling a hard-hitting Deep Strike DW Battalion with IG Leman Russ Tank Commanders/tanks with some screen. The Russ' are tough enough to take the 1st turn hit, and can return a hefty punch. They're at a nice spot right now. Going tempestus is gonna leave you with alot of dudes that die pretty easy to weight of fire. And i feel our Helblasters do alot of the same job. AdMech can get you reasonably cheap infantry screen, and Onagers make for really scary long-range AT. But thats a bit pricey, points-wise. 3 onagers and an aura is a brutal AT grouping Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5089629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris521 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I'm currently considering coupling a hard-hitting Deep Strike DW Battalion with IG Leman Russ Tank Commanders/tanks with some screen. The Russ' are tough enough to take the 1st turn hit, and can return a hefty punch. They're at a nice spot right now. The TAC list that I'm hoping will be my go to list is looking very similar. A DW Battlion with 2 captains (jetpack) and 4 vet squads(3 Deepstrike stratagem, 1 from beacon) with storm bolters, storm shields, and a frag cannon each. This is about 750 points for some good dakka. For my guard force, I'll have two battlions which will include at least 5 Russes and infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5089660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiff Crayons Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 I have a stock Guard Battalion I include in all of my Ultramarines and Deathwatch lists to provide bodies and an easy 5 cp’s. The Battalion ranges from 180 points barebones to 677 featuring a couple Russes and heavy weapons squads. I tailor it depending on what I want to use from the space marines Battalion. I also tend to run Gman as he is really well painted and my two primary opponents - 1k sons and Deathguard - auto include their primarchs, and the clashes between primarchs are always good fun and thematic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5089726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal van Trapp Posted May 24, 2018 Author Share Posted May 24, 2018 So it sounds like if I go AM I should use basic not tempestus units because they are cheaper and more useful but that means they just arnt good for what i want, that said, I've played around in battlescibe and built a small admech detachment to go with my DW, i want your guys opinion on whether you think it will work or if i should do something else: ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [32 PL, 503pts] ++ + Uncategorised + Forge World: Metallica + HQ + Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 47pts]: Omnissian Axe, Servo-arm Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 47pts]: Omnissian Axe, Servo-arm + Troops + Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 43pts] . 2x Ranger (Arc Rifle): 2x Arc rifle . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle . 2x Skitarii Ranger Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 43pts] . 2x Ranger (Arc Rifle): 2x Arc rifle . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle . 2x Skitarii Ranger Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 43pts] . 2x Ranger (Arc Rifle): 2x Arc rifle . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle . 2x Skitarii Ranger + Heavy Support + Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 140pts]: Smoke Launchers . Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 140pts]: Smoke Launchers . Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser ++ Total: [32 PL, 503pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Its 503 points so I'd need to trim 3 points somewhere but I think I can make that work Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5090307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FabulousRex Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 My Ally is a super heavy detachment with 3 Armiger warglaives. 720pts gets you speed, firepower, and puts alot of pressure on the opponent with my Rhinos loaded with Stormbolters. Threat overload ftw! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5090412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Deathwatch has access to one of the more reliable SM anti tank options, the Leviathan dread with storm cannons. This is my go to for anti tank. Put it in the Teleportarium, place it, pop Wisdom of the Ancients, pop the appropriate strat for +1 to wound. 20 shots that hit on 3s, rerolling 1s, t7 wound on 3s, rerolling 1s (mission tactic), at -2, 2 damage each. It does the job well. As far as allying, I like to ally Astra Militarum for bodies + more CP. As well as a 3rd punchy detachment, such as Custodes or BA. Lately I have been using BA, with scouts and BA Libbys, one jump pack, the other dread. The Libby dread is capable of 5-9 attacks that hit on 2s (rerolling 1s possible), and wound on 2s, at -4, for 3 damage each. Hilarious to watch him punch a plane to death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5090711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal van Trapp Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 Deathwatch has access to one of the more reliable SM anti tank options, the Leviathan dread with storm cannons. This is my go to for anti tank. Put it in the Teleportarium, place it, pop Wisdom of the Ancients, pop the appropriate strat for +1 to wound. 20 shots that hit on 3s, rerolling 1s, t7 wound on 3s, rerolling 1s (mission tactic), at -2, 2 damage each. It does the job well. Yeah I'm not looking to spend that much money or points on a deathstar that probably won't survive the turn after it wrecks 1 maybe 2 vehicles. As far as allying, I like to ally Astra Militarum for bodies + more CP. As well as a 3rd punchy detachment, such as Custodes or BA. Lately I have been using BA, with scouts and BA Libbys, one jump pack, the other dread. The Libby dread is capable of 5-9 attacks that hit on 2s (rerolling 1s possible), and wound on 2s, at -4, for 3 damage each. Hilarious to watch him punch a plane to death. 1. At that point is it even a deathwatch army anymore? Sounds more like the dreaded imperial soup! 2. How can a Libby dread punch a plane? Can they get dreadnought sized jump packs? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5090742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
autek mor Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 personally i would port in the leviathan with some support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vigitant Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 2. How can a Libby dread punch a plane? Can they get dreadnought sized jump packs? If it foolishly drops into hover within move+charge range. Though dreadnought-sized Jump packs should be a thing. I want 12" move, flying Hateboxes of doom. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Librarian dreads can cast wings of sanguinious which gives them fly and lets them move 12 inches... so they can go punch planes whether they are hovering or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal van Trapp Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 Idk I'm still not completely sold on leviathan dreads, especially since I'd still need another non-relic heavy support Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moostick Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 It seems like you're more interested in the extra CP than anti tank with that AdMech detachment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finkmilkana Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 I‘m also not really sure if a single leviathan in an army that otherwise is low on high toughness targets is the best bet. He needs to drop in 24 of his target and then will probably be focused down by pretty much all their anti tank, giving him only 1 good shooting phase. Probably not enough to make his points back and without saturation of high toughness targets he will also not have pulled much firepower of of other models (as he might be the only high toughness model in range). His offensive output, while pretty good, is also not that great if he only gets one, maybe two rounds of shooting. Just for comparisons sake, 10 plasma veterans would have the same number of shots with more ap and strength (though they obviously have less range and die on a 1). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 I‘m also not really sure if a single leviathan in an army that otherwise is low on high toughness targets is the best bet. He needs to drop in 24 of his target and then will probably be focused down by pretty much all their anti tank, giving him only 1 good shooting phase. Probably not enough to make his points back and without saturation of high toughness targets he will also not have pulled much firepower of of other models (as he might be the only high toughness model in range). His offensive output, while pretty good, is also not that great if he only gets one, maybe two rounds of shooting. Just for comparisons sake, 10 plasma veterans would have the same number of shots with more ap and strength (though they obviously have less range and die on a 1). Lets go ahead and do a comparison, 10 plasma vets costs less than a stormcannon levi (19pts less), and need to land within 12" of their target in order to do the same amount of shots. Lets say said unit gets targeted by everyones dreaded unit, Dark Reapers. 10 Dark Reapers, with Guide and Ynnari soulburst. Shooting 10 veterans : 40 shots at s5, -2, 2d. 13 misses, rerolls to 4 misses. 36 hits, that wound 24 times. Saving on 5s, is 16 fails, and 10 dead veterans, if you had cover, fail 12 times, still dead. -reroll 1 save, still dead unit. Shooting 10 veterans : 20 shots at st8, -2, 3d. 7 misses, rerolls to 2 misses. 18 hits, that wound 15 times. Saving on 5s, is 10 fails, and 10 dead veterans, if you had cover, fail 7 times, 7 of 10 dead. - reroll 1 save, 33% to save 1 more veteran. Shooting a Leviathan : 40 shots at s5, -2, 2d. 13 misses, rerolls to 4 misses. 36 hits, that wound 12 times. Saving on 4s, 6 fail, 12 wounds of 14 taken. Leviathan lives, but is nearly dead. - reroll 1 save, 50% to keep 2 more wounds Shooting a Leviathan : 20 shots at st8, -2, 3d. 7 misses, rerolls to 2 misses. 18 hits, that wound 9 times. Saving on 4s, 5 fail, 15 wounds taken. Dead Leviathan. - reroll 1 save, 50% to stay alive with 1 wound remaining. Either way your choice in this case is going to be hurting. The Leviathan is able to have better positioning due to range, and benefits more from rerolling 1 save. The veterans are easier to collect, but the Leviathan is the more tactical choice IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finkmilkana Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 No, I’m not proposing to actually drop in 10 plasma veterans at once, that’s far too squishy (if you want to do that, at least put a few Stormshields in there, you can get almost 4 3++ saves for the 19 points difference). And all weapons that get shot at this veteran squad would otherwise be shot at another veteran squad, while some Melta or lascannons might not have another good target without the leviathan. Mainly though, I just wanted to point out that the leviathan is not much better than just dropping plasma vets and not necessarily an auto include (especially if you also account for the fact that you need to bring another heavy support you might not want to bring otherwise). If you already have other high toughness targets (like other dreads etc) in your army the leviathan is still a great choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal van Trapp Posted May 26, 2018 Author Share Posted May 26, 2018 It probably might help if you guys the rest of my list then yeah? ++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Deathwatch) [100 PL, 1498pts] ++ + HQ + Librarian with Jump Pack [7 PL, 120pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Jump Pack, The Beacon Angelis Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts]: Lord of Hidden Knowledge, Warlord + Troops + Intercessors [17 PL, 304pts] . Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers . Hellblaster: Assault Plasma Incinerator, Bolt Pistol . Hellblaster: Assault Plasma Incinerator, Bolt Pistol . Inceptor . . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter . Inceptor . . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol . Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol Intercessors [16 PL, 296pts] . Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers . Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers . Hellblaster: Assault Plasma Incinerator, Bolt Pistol . Hellblaster: Assault Plasma Incinerator, Bolt Pistol . Inceptor . . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol . Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol Veterans [19 PL, 244pts] . Biker: Twin boltgun . Biker: Twin boltgun . Biker: Twin boltgun . Black Shield: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Vanguard Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield . Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield . Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Watch Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm Bolter Veterans [19 PL, 244pts] . Biker: Twin boltgun . Biker: Twin boltgun . Biker: Twin boltgun . Black Shield: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Vanguard Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield . Vanguard Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield . Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield . Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Watch Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm Bolter Veterans [15 PL, 160pts] . Black Shield: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun . Watch Sergeant: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun ++ Total: [100 PL, 1498pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe I just played a game against my buds tyranids with this exact list and decimated them, the difference between MONSTER and VEHICLE is a super important one. In armies like tyranids where you can get away without true dedicated anti-tank, the sheer weight of fire is devastating, both against the bigger ones and the little ones! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
autek mor Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 i'm really loving the combinations you can do with deathwatch and AM. for under 2000pts you can have two sicaran battle tanks, two units of aggressors, two large kill teams, three basilisks, two griffon mortar tanks and 60 guardsmen with still some change to spare for HQs and upgrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 GW should release a Battle kit with the bare bones min IG battalion and call it The Farm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
leth Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 I run a small detachment of IG with two basilisks for some much needed barrage, bodies/pp on the table, and CMd points. As to dealing with anti tank? Your best bet is going to be the +1 to wound stratagem. Most vehicles will now be wounded on a 4+, getting 10 to 15+ wounds at -1 or 2 will put the hurt on many vehicles. Everyone talking about the leviathan forgot its biggest limitation - needing a second heavy support choice. Cheapest is like 100 points and pretty meh. Whereas veterans, and other related units, will use up one of the required slots in your battalion for the CP that you need. However for veterans, it is basically always stormbolters. Nothin else even compares(maybe frag cannons) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5091987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Everyone talking about the leviathan forgot its biggest limitation - needing a second heavy support choice. Cheapest is like 100 points and pretty meh. Whereas veterans, and other related units, will use up one of the required slots in your battalion for the CP that you need. Except for the fact that you can take a heavy support Rapier team for 87pts with a Quad launcher, which is quite good, and holds a backfield objective nicely. So I love running my Leviathan right now, I get forward anti tank that will survive to do its job, and shots that ignore LoS that hold my backfield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347565-am-vs-am-building-an-allied-force/#findComment-5092529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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