I may have done a thing? Who knows? Tactica discussion

[TheStatusJoe]

So, I have a lot of issues with 8th edition, mainly there's no defense, and these goofball alpha strike gunline armies are just boring as all get out to play against. I've been noticing that in most of the games I have played and watched in the last year, that the majority of the games are won by the player who goes first on turn 1. That being said, I want to manufacture defense, a way to weather the first round of shooting to be able to fire back on turn 2. Fortifications may be a thing, but I want to look at a model that I have not seen played, even once since 8th edition dropped.

 

The Drop Pod.

 

I know, I know, its garbage, overpriced and doesn't do what it needs to do on turn 1 now that the big garbage faq is out. However, what if we devised a way to use them... defensively?

 

Here's what I'm thinking, running a base battalion, cheap as you can get it. 2 Lieutenants, 3x5man Tac Squads (Scouts if you want to cut the points a bit more) and 2 Drop Pods Runs somewhere in the neighborhood of 515 points, giving both LTs a combi-plasma for some added punch. Oh, grab a single 5 man dev squad here. Las/Missiles.

Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment- Bobby G- 400

Spearhead Detachment-  Any HQ you want, and 3 Dev squads all base 5 man, with Las/Missiles in each one. 

Fill out the rest of your list however you want- It's just the skeleton we are after here, as well as the tactic of drop podding... defensively.

 

In deployment, put your tacs, bobby, and LTs on the table. Hide them as best as you can, so your opponent must maneuver to shoot them. Put the Devs into the drop pods, stash them on the side table. 

 

Essentially what we are doing is ensuring that the teeth of this list will survive to be able to shoot on our turn, by paying a 170 point tax on these four dev squads. When they splash down (All deploying within 6 of Bobby G, so you can move him into good position for LOS with your 8+D6+1" Advance he makes, they all reroll hits and wounds, and they are guaranteed to be on the table, in your deployment zone with the beta rule, but on the table on your turn nonetheless. 

 

[Cruor Vault]

You have 4 Devastator squads in this build, that violates the rule of 3.

 

A similar tactic is done with Razorbacks.  It's a little more expensive, but you get TONS of bonus firepower plus they can move.  The Guilliman parking lot was a pretty powerful build during the index only months of early 8th.

[TheStatusJoe]

The rule of 3 is not actually a rule. That is simply a suggestion for tournament organizers.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

You should be able to hide the devs. If you can't hide 3 5man devastator squads on turn one you should think about criticizing your choice of terrain rather than 8th edition rules. LOS blocking terrain is super important with the current rules set and all the people playing leafblower lists dominate if they can shoot everything all the time without moving. Look at London GT, inControl won with a melee list against a shooty list because they had large, LOS blocking terrain pieces (albeit ugly as all hell) to hide key units.

[Cruor Vault]

The rule of 3 is not actually a rule. That is simply a suggestion for tournament organizers.

 

You're fooling yourself if you think this won't become a full blown rule when Chapter Approved hits in a few months.

 

 

 

Marshal Wolfhart, on 24 May 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

You should be able to hide the devs. If you can't hide 3 5man devastator squads on turn one you should think about criticizing your choice of terrain rather than 8th edition rules. LOS blocking terrain is super important with the current rules set and all the people playing leafblower lists dominate if they can shoot everything all the time without moving. Look at London GT, inControl won with a melee list against a shooty list because they had large, LOS blocking terrain pieces (albeit ugly as all hell) to hide key units.

Many lists feature indirect fire weapons like Basilisk or Hive Guard, being in a transport is a lot safer than hiding behind a while when those things are on the field.  You also get the benefit of reducing your drops when using transports.

[TheStatusJoe]

 

You're fooling yourself if you think this won't become a full blown rule when Chapter Approved hits in a few months.

 

 

I'll take that bet. It has been met with nothing but resistance from the community. 

[smbarne]

You can actually do this with Lias Issodon from the Raptors. He’s a Chapter Master, so you lose your reroll all wounds, but save 200 points and let three other infantry units deep strike in one drop. It's pretty good, but deep striking devs struggle with minuses to hit. If they're Alaitoc Eldar, then they may have a lot of -2 to hit or worse. T1 you're hitting on 5’s or maybe even 6’s rerolling 1's and 2's due to modifier order.

 

It's one of the reasons I started experimenting with Primaris was because Heavy weapons really hurt with extra minuses to hit out there.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Altioc is one army and tbh I rarely ever see it.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

You're fooling yourself if you think this won't become a full blown rule when Chapter Approved hits in a few months.

 

I'll take that bet. It has been met with nothing but resistance from the community.

The rule of 3 has been largely liked by the community. It does need to be more strict to limit things like Daemon Princes with slight name variations.

[TheStatusJoe]

I ran this today against Tau. A few surprises. Final score was 13-4 in the mission deadlock (?) I think thats the name.

1) I really like Cato. He is definitely a fill in for Roboute in smaller point games.

2) 3 razorbacks, 2 drop pods and Bobby G for 6 drops. I got the +1

3) The Drop pods did exactly what they were supposed to do. They kept my dev squads safe until they could drop with bobby g. I had a few "defend blah blah" objectives. My opponent actually had to burn shots from units into a drop pod to prevent me from scoring 2 vps.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [43 PL, 817pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Lieutenants [4 PL, 75pts]

. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

 

Lieutenants [4 PL, 75pts]

. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

 

+ Troops +

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 82pts]

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 82pts]

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 86pts]

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power sword

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 69pts]

. 4x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power sword

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Twin lascannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

 

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 400pts] ++

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 400pts]

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [41 PL, 782pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain Sicarius [7 PL, 132pts]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

 

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 150pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Drop Pod [5 PL, 85pts]: Storm bolter

 

Drop Pod [5 PL, 85pts]: Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [102 PL, 1999pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

[Aothaine]

I ran this today against Tau. A few surprises. Final score was 13-4 in the mission deadlock (?) I think thats the name.

1) I really like Cato. He is definitely a fill in for Roboute in smaller point games.

2) 3 razorbacks, 2 drop pods and Bobby G for 6 drops. I got the +1

3) The Drop pods did exactly what they were supposed to do. They kept my dev squads safe until they could drop with bobby g. I had a few "defend blah blah" objectives. My opponent actually had to burn shots from units into a drop pod to prevent me from scoring 2 vps.

 

 

Using units/stratagems to deep strike your heavy hitters is something The Spider at TTT does all the time. It works amazingly well. You keep your hammer units safe and it allows them to do what they can. The problem with drop pods is that they are almost useless after they deploy. Though, by dropping devs you mitigate this a little bit. You can now drop them in key positions on objectives that also give you cover and line of sight to targets. Also, if you find you don't need to protect them as much you can drop the pods empty and use them as blocking terrain or vehicles to hold points.

 

I've argued this use of drop pods for months and people tend to ignore the ramblings of a old crazy man. I understand that drop pods are expensive but they also give you a deep striking unit(s) without the use of command points and to units that might not have deep striking as an option. If they could hold Primaris I think they would be used all over the place. But they can't and that is one of the biggest downfalls of Primaris imho.

[Zombs]

Lately I'm thinking a lot about this topic. Better to let your heavy hitters come from deepstrike (with the -1 tho) or try and defend them/hide first turn and hope to surive, but hitting at full BS?

 

For example Deathwatch can put Dreadnoughts in Deepstrike for 1-3 CP. They reroll wounds of 1 for chapter tactics already and with a captain they reroll hits too. Also a redemptor mortis Dreadnought has a BS of 2+, so when it comes in it hits on a 3+, like a regular guy. It costs 206 points with 4 lascannons tho

 

The alternative are Raven Guard mortis dreadnougts, 175 points for 4 lascannons, with -1 to be hit and 5+ save in cover (vs lascannons). Put in a Lieutenant and use the 1cp stratagem to reroll 1s to hit and you are done.

[Aothaine]

Lately I'm thinking a lot about this topic. Better to let your heavy hitters come from deepstrike (with the -1 tho) or try and defend them/hide first turn and hope to surive, but hitting at full BS?

 

For example Deathwatch can put Dreadnoughts in Deepstrike for 1-3 CP. They reroll wounds of 1 for chapter tactics already and with a captain they reroll hits too. Also a redemptor mortis Dreadnought has a BS of 2+, so when it comes in it hits on a 3+, like a regular guy. It costs 206 points with 4 lascannons tho

 

The alternative are Raven Guard mortis dreadnougts, 175 points for 4 lascannons, with -1 to be hit and 5+ save in cover (vs lascannons). Put in a Lieutenant and use the 1cp stratagem to reroll 1s to hit and you are done.

 

Your missing the heavy hitter. Deathwatch Relic Leviathan Dreadnought with Double Storm-Cannon Arrays. Drop two of those bad boys and a captain and you're gold.

[mertbl]

Good lord that's brutal. Not making friends with that drop. Drop 3 using stratagem and deep strike your captain with jump pack.

 

 

Your missing the heavy hitter. Deathwatch Relic Leviathan Dreadnought with Double Storm-Cannon Arrays. Drop two of those bad boys and a captain and you're gold.

[Prot]

I don’t use the relic dreads but I use this strategy to a high degree of success with any Dreadnoughts.... I mention this in the Deathwatch forum.... basically I don’t use the Captain either; I use Wisdom of the Ancients instead.

 

This is an Ultra thread though right?

 

This discussion sets up a larger topic I discussed when the new DW Codex dropped.... do the DW do marines better than a non-Guilliman Ultramarines army?

 

I think with Primaris absolutely....and I played Deathwatch when that forum was dead, and I’m watching competitive players slowly realizing this and moving away from their Codex Astartes armies to do so which disappoints me honestly.

 

I want to think there are some options here worth saving the Codex Astartes, even those that are contemplating jumping ship.

 

DW have a lot of issues with armour and flexibility in general. Units I think Codex Astartes still have a good advantage with include:

Scouts, scout bikes ( yes I mean it....I can’t believe people don’t use these more)

Lieutenants

Ancients

Stormraven ( the Corvus Brownstar as I call it is a piece of junk)

The Stormtalon

Dev squads

Centurions- both types

Whirlwinds ( still a good value no one uses yet it’s a great remover of Dark Reapers and Hive Guard which are both real issues for DW)

Cataphractii ( still prefer these to any other loyalist Termie in 40k- only DG do it better)

Predators

Named HQs

 

I think that’s a pretty healthy list and of course Guilliman can tip that scale at any time.

[Brother Captain Ed]

scout bikes ( yes I mean it....I can’t believe people don’t use these more)

 

Can't find 'em.  They're rare as rocking horse crap.  They were downright bad for what three or four editions?  The handful of people who bought them are using them.  :P

 

Anyway, I have similar thoughts about the Deathwatch.  I've been using them in favor of my codex marines, though they have some stark weaknesses.  That said, the ways in which the codex shores up those weaknesses tends to be expensive or sub optimal (or both...hello Centurions).  Honestly, C:SM needs a new dex at this point.  It just can't do it.  Deathwatch, while neat and giving you marines that actually kill non-vehicles like marines should, isn't the answer either. 

[Prot]

Hey I'm running the Scout Bikes tonight! Cluster Mines galore!

 

The Centurion squad I'll be using tonight is just shy of 400 points. My goal is to kill 401 points worth of enemy models. I'll show you efficiency! :tu:

[TheStatusJoe]

I don’t use the relic dreads but I use this strategy to a high degree of success with any Dreadnoughts.... I mention this in the Deathwatch forum.... basically I don’t use the Captain either; I use Wisdom of the Ancients instead.

 

This is an Ultra thread though right?

 

This discussion sets up a larger topic I discussed when the new DW Codex dropped.... do the DW do marines better than a non-Guilliman Ultramarines army?

 

I think with Primaris absolutely....and I played Deathwatch when that forum was dead, and I’m watching competitive players slowly realizing this and moving away from their Codex Astartes armies to do so which disappoints me honestly.

 

I want to think there are some options here worth saving the Codex Astartes, even those that are contemplating jumping ship.

 

DW have a lot of issues with armour and flexibility in general. Units I think Codex Astartes still have a good advantage with include:

Scouts, scout bikes ( yes I mean it....I can’t believe people don’t use these more)

Lieutenants

Ancients

Stormraven ( the Corvus Brownstar as I call it is a piece of junk)

The Stormtalon

Dev squads

Centurions- both types

Whirlwinds ( still a good value no one uses yet it’s a great remover of Dark Reapers and Hive Guard which are both real issues for DW)

Cataphractii ( still prefer these to any other loyalist Termie in 40k- only DG do it better)

Predators

Named HQs

 

I think that’s a pretty healthy list and of course Guilliman can tip that scale at any time.

 

Yes, DW do non-guilliman marines better. They're more flexible, and they have options that the Codex Astartes don't have. 

Codex Astartes do Tanks better, but they still can't hold a candle to things like IG tanks, because IG tanks all get special rules in the form of their Chapter Tactics. 

It's unfortunately just where we are at with 8th edition, that the power creep is too real, and nothing makes logical sense (Like Ultramarine Bikers are better than White Scars Bikers.)

[Prot]

I certainly don’t disagree. There are a lot of problems and already several of the opening codexes for 8 th look old, too dysfunctional, over pointed, and need large over hauls.

 

But I don’t think it will happen. I thought this would be a function of the ‘big’ FAQs. But instead the FAQs have served almost entirely as nerf judgements, largely in the form of points, and typically with poor information as fuel. I think this is what happens when you have a studio of ‘fun’ gamers , then they travel and get their butts handed to them by a Poxwalker farm or a Stormraven air wing. They have knee jerk reactions, with severe, long term limiting implications.

 

I know they have playtestors abroad, but believe it or not I used to be in a group that did thus waaay back in the day. And our ‘testing’ would be limited to interpretation of their pending rules and ideas. Direct functional feedback was almost 100% ignored.

 

I don’t talk about that very much but I feel it is worth mentioning since the current ‘playtest group’ takes a lot of heat for broken elements. And I’m betting they are in a similar situation to what I saw first hand.

 

Why am I mentioning this? Because I don’t think Amy of us disagree on the results and state of Ultramarines. Or Codex Astartes. But I really haven’t seen a shred of indication it will improve. Get worse? Perhaps, there are still functional units that could be nerfed harder but the severe limitations and appearance of Codex Astartes at top tables tells me the heat is off.

 

So I think we need to get past hope of change. It isn’t happening. I think everyone here has hit their Facebook and/ or email with tons of feedback. No changes.

 

So let’s just deal with what we have. Tape it together, staple it, duck tape, whatever. Throw in Astra CP farm, a front line of Custodes, whatever it takes.

 

I know in my meta you will only see 1 out of 20-30 Codex Astartes armies in ITC events ( almost exclusively Raven Guard).

 

I just think it’s time to stop asking for change and accept what we have left.

[TheStatusJoe]

I certainly don’t disagree. There are a lot of problems and already several of the opening codexes for 8 th look old, too dysfunctional, over pointed, and need large over hauls.

 

But I don’t think it will happen. I thought this would be a function of the ‘big’ FAQs. But instead the FAQs have served almost entirely as nerf judgements, largely in the form of points, and typically with poor information as fuel. I think this is what happens when you have a studio of ‘fun’ gamers , then they travel and get their butts handed to them by a Poxwalker farm or a Stormraven air wing. They have knee jerk reactions, with severe, long term limiting implications.

 

I know they have playtestors abroad, but believe it or not I used to be in a group that did thus waaay back in the day. And our ‘testing’ would be limited to interpretation of their pending rules and ideas. Direct functional feedback was almost 100% ignored.

 

I don’t talk about that very much but I feel it is worth mentioning since the current ‘playtest group’ takes a lot of heat for broken elements. And I’m betting they are in a similar situation to what I saw first hand.

 

Why am I mentioning this? Because I don’t think Amy of us disagree on the results and state of Ultramarines. Or Codex Astartes. But I really haven’t seen a shred of indication it will improve. Get worse? Perhaps, there are still functional units that could be nerfed harder but the severe limitations and appearance of Codex Astartes at top tables tells me the heat is off.

 

So I think we need to get past hope of change. It isn’t happening. I think everyone here has hit their Facebook and/ or email with tons of feedback. No changes.

 

So let’s just deal with what we have. Tape it together, staple it, duck tape, whatever. Throw in Astra CP farm, a front line of Custodes, whatever it takes.

 

I know in my meta you will only see 1 out of 20-30 Codex Astartes armies in ITC events ( almost exclusively Raven Guard).

 

I just think it’s time to stop asking for change and accept what we have left.

 

Sadly, this is the reason why nearly 30% of my local Warhammer 40k players have abandoned 40k in favor of 30k or Guild Ball. The game-state sucks. Guilliman isn't even enough to make Space Marines competitive, which is beyond absurd.