Pesky Raiders from Commorragh

[Pearson73]

Now then folks, not overly sure if this is the right place for this topic, though it is based off my (limited) experience with my chaos marines. Anywho, there's a fellow at my club who plays Dark Eldar and I'm (read most of the folk there) are having a true headache countering his list at 1000pts, he runs something like:

 

Black Heart Air Wing:

3 Razorwings (swaps between disintegrators and lances).

 

Flayed Skull Battalion (ignores cover when shooting from transports):

3 x 5 Kabalites (mixes between shredders and blasters).

2 Archons with blasters.

4 x Venoms with dual cannons.

 

Obviously the list is incredibly fast with army wide -1 to hit and throws out a hellish amount of anti-infantry shots; the various blasters, lances, missiles and disintegrators allow for a decent chunk of anti-tank too. Think there's nine CP here, and the Black Heart anti-stratagem stratagem.

 

The question is, what do folk think will stand up to this?

[Plaguecaster]

I find contemptors with butcher cannons do quite well against dark elder especially venoms, with their high BS they generally don’t care about the -1 to hit since they will be hitting a on 3s anyway (2+ BS normally). A double butcher cannon Contemptor is 163pts and can easily destroy a Venom or two a turn

 

What legion do you play?? If alpha legion you could use the same trick against them having -1 to hit on your stuff and play something like s hooty style list trying to bring down his venoms then picking off the stuff within. Never played against razorwings yet so unsure how to deal with them maybe just focus heaps of fire into them to try bringing them down

[Scourged]

A single missile launcher gets you the Flakk missile strategem for mortal wounds on flyers. The heldrake gets melee bonuses against units with the fly keyword. Strange enough, flamers will help - they ignore the -1 to hit, though getting close will be hard except for the drake. Heavy bolters and autocannons are a good fit, too.

 

Vehicles are only wounded by splinter weapons on 6s. Spread around brutes, rhinos, and predators and he'll have to be more selective with his blasters. And don't forget to pop smoke on the Rhinos.

 

If you can get them close enough, obliterators with prescience or a lord reroll will shred them apart.

 

Once the venoms are cracked open charge the kabalites - they do not want to be in combat at all.

[Pearson73]

Thanks for the thoughts guys, I normally play Emperor's Children, though as I'm still to build my noise marines, I'm not getting many benefits from this. The list I ran was bikers with bike characters, couple of combat squads with autocannon and an auto-las pred. The autocannons and pred did some good work, but the bikes got eliminated in his first turn, the characters surviving to bring down some Kabalites and an Archon.

 

The butcher cannons certainly sound good to me, useful against all enemies too, I would imagine. I really like the idea of Drakes too, especially with the bonuses against flyers, I think they'd do rather well. What do folk think of quad heavy bolter rapiers, they're not overly pricey and bring 12 shots each?

[Scourged]

Yeah, bikes aren't a great match, as it sounds like you saw - splinter weapons care not about the extra toughness. Once you have the noise marines that'll help out a fair amount.

 

The rapier is a neat idea. Since cover is irrelevant due to flayed skull, it may be worth considering. But... One good blaster shot and all of that dakka is gone. It's a bit of a gamble, but a cheap one at least.

[dakkamasta]

Well firstly this is a pretty tasteless list for 1000 points. Clearly this player cares about winning above all else since the list is just kabalites, venoms and 3 flyers which is pretty uninspiring.

 

With that said if a player is going to bring a list like that, then you simply have to match it with an equally lame list. 3 Daemon Princes with cultists for bubblewrap and some obliterators would put the hurt on this list. The only thing he can target turn 1 are the cultists and then you can hit him with some smites plus obliterator fire. The Princes can do quite a number on the planes and you should be focusing these down first because once they are gone the list falls apart.

 

So basically bring a list that can take down the Razorwings quickly and then he's basically done for.

 

P.S. You could be extra cheeky and bring Renegade Hydras along your back line. Then again I also play Guard so I have the models already so easier said than done.

[Raven1]

Heldrakes are going to give +1 against the "fly" keyword I believe and that is most of his list plus with the flamer option there goes his -1.

 

A supreme command detachment of Thousand Sons and spam smite. Specifically demon princes wrapped by cultists or whatnot or just your legion princes works too.

 

Allied daemons.

 

It is not a friendly list, so my suggestion would be to stop pulling punches your self that list is about winning not having fun on a Saturday afternoon, so play it that way as well.

[Pearson73]

@Scourged - Yup, poisoned weapons mounted on zippy flyers completely negate the benefits of bike squads; I'll be throwing in some rapiers next time I play the guy, as I don't own any Drakes or dreads at the minute, though they're certainly on the shopping list now.

 

@dakkamasta - Thanks for the input, though his list does just seem bland and victory focussed, I would argue it's also quite fluffy for Dark Eldar, with lots of fast gunboats. I initially targeted the Razors first, but after reviewing my game and discussing with other folk at the club, I was surprised to realise that they're more of a distraction; the venoms and warriors actually do a surprsing amount of the work, especially against our meta which tends to be light on vehicles. I'm definitely considering a dual-talon winged Prince with the Elixr to tear down the jets though.

 

@Raven1 - Thanks for your thoughts, the Drakes certainly look like the route to go down, are they worth their points in more general match ups too? Adding more psykers is another option I'm keen on, even running one in my lists has shown their potential, especially against an army which can't deny.

[Scourged]

Definitely get a dread or three of any and all variants, yes, but don't rush right out to get a drake. At least... don't buy it for perceived performance alone. I have one, and it's seen action all of twice. They're not bad, they're just... meh. It could certainly help you against the Drukhari, but otherwise it may fall flat. Then again, if you think the model is amazing (which it is) and want one anyway then disregard all that, heh. Just... try not to go crazy painting trim...

 

I had forgotten about Princes earlier, but yes, most certainly invest in one or more of those as well. They'll bring the hurt. 

[Raven1]

 

@Raven1 - Thanks for your thoughts, the Drakes certainly look like the route to go down, are they worth their points in more general match ups too? Adding more psykers is another option I'm keen on, even running one in my lists has shown their potential, especially against an army which can't deny.

 

I don't run Drakes very often, but they seem they could work well against that list, and although not at their 7th edition cheese levels they can put in some good work as they can flame-charge-withdraw-flame-charge

 

I play TS so I am very much keen on using psychic powers.  I am however retooling my list as it was a Tzaangor bomb list, and I'm changing it over to Smite spam to adapt to the nerfs/buffs from the Big FAQ.

 

He can't deny but they have some Anti-psyker stratagems.  However, the anti-stratagem stratagem is 3 CP if i recall and he only will get max 3 chances unless he can gain some CP back.  So you might want to play on that and bait him into using it on something less important for you.

[Pearson73]

@Scourged - Thanks for the advice regarding the Drakes' general performance, I think I'll pick a pair up one day, but maybe not so much of a priority, the Contemptors, however, are something I'm keen on, potentially a Leviathan too. What are your thoughts on running dreads with dual Kheres? Though short ranged they kick out a heck of  a lot of shots at a fair strength.

 

@Raven1 - It's certainly fitting that Sons have more freedom in the psychic phase now, I find it slightly limiting in my force that I can't repeat cast, let alone in a sorceror focussed list...

[Raven1]

If it were a loyalist contemptor I would suggest kheres, but since we have access to Butcher cannons I would suggest those.

[Scourged]

+1 for Butcher cannons. It's a solid weapon, with only two fewer shots. Besides, if you're close enough to use Kheres, that only puts you 6" away from Blaster range, which is exactly where you don't want a Contemptor to be. And getting that close would probably require moving, which is -1 to hit. Yeah, on a Contemptor that isn't a huge deal, but then there's also the additional -1 to hit the Venoms and flyers, so it adds up. The Butcher keeps you away at a safer distance, less need to move, is stronger and does more damage... on top of the nifty Ld penalty. And it's still four shots per cannon. 

 

Also, since we're chatting Contemptors (and, in this case, also Rapiers), take a look at the C-beam cannon. It's a single shot, so maybe not the best fit for this opponent, but at long range it could one-shot a Venom. And after the Venom is popped, it can work as effectively against the Kabalite squads thanks to it's 2D6 "splash" damage. In the end, you're probably better off with two Butchers for weight of fire, but I just mention it because the C-beam is growing on me lately. 

[Raven1]

On another note someone mentioned on a different forum. If you can eliminate the other stuff. Your opponent will auto-lose with just flyers. So you only need to deal with a very flimsy half of his army.

[Pearson73]

Looks like the Butcher cannons are the best choice and seem to be well rounded enough to shine against all foes.

 

@Scourged - Interesting you mention the C-beam, I was debating trying them on some rapiers as their range and associated abilities mean they'll be dealing damage from turn one and can threaten anything with their further wound production.

 

@Raven1 - Even better news there then, hadn't realised that was a rule!

[Scourged]

Do let me know how the rapier works out for c-beams, should you try it. The only worry is that it can't move, and rapier a have a very short height for line of sight. But like you said, it's cheap. I'm more inclined for Contemptors just because of the 2+ to hit, the -1 to get hit (I run alpha legion), and the option to take two.

[Pearson73]

Certainly will brother, I'm leery of mounting them on Contemptor's due to the moving restriction, I've always seen dreads less as stationary fire support but as roving killers.

[Scourged]

Why not both? Nearly every game I play I've got a las/missile dread hanging out in my deployment zone and it always gets work done. But at the same time I'll run a scourgebrute screaming up the field at the enemy's heart. They do both well, and Contemptors do both even better. But, I run AL, which likes hanging back outside of 12". For EC, yeah, I can see how it's less favorable.

 

The large benefit to the Contemptor is access to weapons you can't otherwise easily get. Slap two heavies and a havoc launcher on him for a firebase, or give him two chain fists with soulburners and give them a proctology exam from Hell.