A fix for termies

[Gherrick]

A buddy and I came up with a "feels right" simple fix for TDA in general: have the Terminus Crux provide 5+ FnP instead of 5++. This would also affect characters in TDA. For SW, that's Logan, Arjac, Njal in TDA, and any generic WL/WGBL/LW in TDA.

 

Thoughts?

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I like that.

 

They also have the problem of being too slow and point inefficient for killing stuff. But that is a subtle change that promotes the unit. A good Anvil unit.

[Gherrick]

We had another thought, but it might be a bit too much: allow TDA to use heavy weapons as assault weapons. They could move and shoot without penalty, or even advance and shoot at -1. Considering it only affects 1 out of every 5 models, it isn't that insane of a boost. Then again, we both agree dreadnaughts (and GK dreadknights) should also treat heavy as assault, just because it makes sense.

 

This doesn't really help the assault-focused TDA units, but about the only thing we could think of for that was giving them the ability to advance and charge. It would be nice to field the Void Claws again :)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Personally I think they should have T5 and S5 as well, but that may or may not be balanced. Big freaking armour and the only bonus is 2+ and an extra wound? silly.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I like Kasper's idea.

 

If anyone played Dawn of War 2 the Terminators in that game can teleport in game. Maybe all TDA should be able to do that. Either an ability or stratagem like the Blood Angels "Upon Wings of Fire." That would fix how slow they are. I don't think it would be OP. They're really far behind in the competitive scene. Or at least give us teleport homers like the Space Marine Termies get.

[M.Redbeard]

I was recently doing my version of Mathammer including surviablebility as well as points per wound and considering everything Termies are pretty inneffcient. I compared them to Wulfen, Thunderwolf Cavalry and Wolf Guard on Bikes. They were something like 10 points more inefficient in my calculations than the other possibilites with the same gear. Considering they are the cheapest of the lot, that says a lot. Wulfen with SS were almost as resilient agains AP 0 and better against everything else.

 

Adding a 5+ FnP would go a long way, especially since we can mix SS and shooting making them very resilient, that FnP would make them far befier. They are still worse at killing than all the other stuff but at least TDA should be the tankier version of the elites.

 

They should get something extra or a slash in points or something because right now, I struggle to see them surviving for long enough to do something aside from DS shoot and die. Better to spend a command point to deepstrike Wulfen, or save 30 points and DS Wolf Guard with Jump Packs in the same loadout and the similar effect. What si the resolution for TDA? I don't know but they need something to make them viable

[UniWolf]

I agree that they should at least have T5 as it just makes sense really 

 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Don't forget the S5. I heard at one point, Thunderhammers were S10. this will differentiate them from bikers, who are also T5 but with 3+ and S4.

 

Ah who am I kidding. My terminators will probably be staying on the shelf for the next 10 years.

[wilkco]

I like the idea but it would make them unkillable if you fitted them with storm shields. Put a wolf priest in with the mix and you are starting to get even better suitability. Would be better to bring the invul save down to 4 plus instead of the 5 plus

 

See i go against blood angel termis alot and the assault ones are a tough nut to crack as the storm shields keep them alive long enough for the thunder hammers to kill off most things. They are just not good aginst fast moving armys once they are dropped that is why i never play them against his blood angels. I suppose they are good ojective takers as with storm shields not much is going to move them off it

[Gherrick]

I like the idea but it would make them unkillable if you fitted them with storm shields. Put a wolf priest in with the mix and you are starting to get even better suitability. Would be better to bring the invul save down to 4 plus instead of the 5 plus

 

See i go against blood angel termis alot and the assault ones are a tough nut to crack as the storm shields keep them alive long enough for the thunder hammers to kill off most things. They are just not good aginst fast moving armys once they are dropped that is why i never play them against his blood angels. I suppose they are good ojective takers as with storm shields not much is going to move them off it

A 4++ from TDA would mean characters with 4++ from belts/halos/et al would get minimal benefit for being in TDA, which seems wrong. TDA with SS are far from unkillable...plasma and the like makes sure of that. Sure, they will resist a lot more of them, but there is plenty of multi-wound damage out there that makes a PA with SS the same as TDA with SS, so fiddling with the invul save doesn't really address the overall issue of TDA squishiness.The main goal is to give TDA a chance to live through stuff that would kill people in lesser armor (including MWs). My issue with improving the invul is that it still makes a single die roll the only factor if the model lives or dies (in most cases), and I feel TDA should be more resilient than that.

 

I'm not totally sure what to do about storm shields, but 3++ is the wrong mechanic to give them, IMO. I'd probably have SS improve armor saves by 2 (instead of 3++), rather than making it a flat invul save. This makes it so there is a difference between a PA with SS and TDA with SS.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I honestly think a good fix would be to have an ability similar to Arjac. I think they should subtract 1 from all damage. This makes the 2 wounds mean more without breaking much or requiring full rewrites of mechanics.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I like that idea of yours, jbickb.

The fall of the mighty suit of TDA is a sad one, indeed. For its cost, the stats it provides are becoming more and more obsolete. And visually/fluff-wise it's a massive suit of armor!! It should reflect both the points spent and the mental image we've come to conjure. I've got over 45 suits of it in my collection, and they're mostly used as upgrades to my GH packs. Sad.

 

End of Line

[Karack Blackstone]

I just wanted to stop by and ask an hopefully cogent question: for 10 points, or so, what is the range of options allowed for TDA of all sorts to get options, some of the above?

 

While entirely wishful thinking, I do like the package of the following:

 

+1 Toughness

2 Resilience (in War of the Ring, this is 2 Wounds to force a single Wound roll, in comparison, when converted into WH40K; jbickb's mentioned concept, a la Arjac)

5+ FNP (Would keeping the 5++ make sense still, or be broken, at that point?)

 

Considering the 1+ thing was considered before, and appears unlikely, I will leave that out for now. I do love the idea of a 1+ Armor Save; the problem is, is it fair, long term?

 

Advice please, per the above.

[greysquigg]

T5 and 5up fnp is a nice fix imo. They really don't contend with our other elite choices otherwise. Wulfen will always be taken due to the higher volume of attacks and speed. Having the choice of a high toughness hard to kill unit is a nice one and almost makes up for their low attack value.

[Gherrick]

A +1T translates into a 5+ Wound roll for S4 weapons and below, and  4+ for S5. This obviously drastically increases their resistance to those weapons, but does nothing to change S6+ weapons. If the goal is to strengthen their resilience to S4-5 small arms, this works well.

 

Applying Arjac's rule to all TDA would help vs overcharged plasma and any of the other 2+W attacks out there (which usually have a high S also) by making TDA a far less viable of a target. They could survive a single LC shot roughly 33% of the time, even after failing their save.

 

Having 5+FnP protects them vs everything, including mortal wounds, but doesn't directly impact the difficulty of wounding them.

 

Their poor movement, however, would prevent them from outright dominating the board. The first two options affect one category of attacks, but does nothing for the other. This is why overall I'm in favor of the 5+FnP. Giving them any more than one of these options would probably make them too strong defensively.

[Ratherdashing]

+1T also bumps up the wound roll from Meltaguns and Lascannons. It's an important jump and totally fair I think.

[Yoyo ninja]

I'm not sure about a 5+ FNP, it's then encroaching on Death Guards Discustingly Resilient trate. What about going back a few editions and giving them a 3+ on 2D6? It then makes them really hard to bring down without dedicated anti-tank weapons. Then a SS can keep its 3++ and you can choose to use either your 3+ on 2D6 or a 3++.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Remember guys, when we are talking about terminators, we are talking about EVERYONE using terminators, including the CSM ones. So be careful what you wish for, the traitors will get it as well.

[Yoyo ninja]

Not nesaseraly, the chaos gods like to grant 'gifts' and 'improve' things in their own way. As long as the traitor TDA was comparable to loyalist suits, there is nothing stopping it being different.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Thst'a why I think that a 2+/5++/subtract dmg by 1 to a minimum of 1 is a great all around fix for the unit.

Wulfen are really good and for us especially, has made the classic suit of TDA an almost obsolete relic of days gone past. Only usurped by the new young wulfy-mcwulferson unit. Wolf.

I will say this- I am head over heals about terminators finally getting 2 wounds!! A massive suit of armor made for deep space combat would surely provide more protection. Thumbs up, GW!!

 

End of Line

[Guest Triszin]

Thst'a why I think that a 2+/5++/subtract dmg by 1 to a minimum of 1 is a great all around fix for the unit.

Wulfen are really good and for us especially, has made the classic suit of TDA an almost obsolete relic of days gone past. Only usurped by the new young wulfy-mcwulferson unit. Wolf.

I will say this- I am head over heals about terminators finally getting 2 wounds!! A massive suit of armor made for deep space combat would surely provide more protection. Thumbs up, GW!!

 

End of Line

but the issue with ignore one damage is it ignores a ton of armies weapons, in addition to knocking out high -ap weapons with a 1d3 dam roll if it rolls a 1.

 

perhaps a rule where instead of ignoring 1 dam, it reduces the -ap modifier of incoming weapons. so a ap 0 against termi armor is actually ap+1, which makes it more difficult to hurt the armor but doesnt make it impossible. or it reduces the str of the incoming shot by 1

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

Thst'a why I think that a 2+/5++/subtract dmg by 1 to a minimum of 1 is a great all around fix for the unit.

Wulfen are really good and for us especially, has made the classic suit of TDA an almost obsolete relic of days gone past. Only usurped by the new young wulfy-mcwulferson unit. Wolf.

I will say this- I am head over heals about terminators finally getting 2 wounds!! A massive suit of armor made for deep space combat would surely provide more protection. Thumbs up, GW!!

 

End of Line

but the issue with ignore one damage is it ignores a ton of armies weapons, in addition to knocking out high -ap weapons with a 1d3 dam roll if it rolls a 1.

 

perhaps a rule where instead of ignoring 1 dam, it reduces the -ap modifier of incoming weapons. so a ap 0 against termi armor is actually ap+1, which makes it more difficult to hurt the armor but doesnt make it impossible. or it reduces the str of the incoming shot by 1

Thats why he said to a minimum of 1. I doesn't knock out any weapon just makes 2 damage weapons and d3 damage weapons less effective versus terminators

[Guest Triszin]

 

 

Thst'a why I think that a 2+/5++/subtract dmg by 1 to a minimum of 1 is a great all around fix for the unit.

Wulfen are really good and for us especially, has made the classic suit of TDA an almost obsolete relic of days gone past. Only usurped by the new young wulfy-mcwulferson unit. Wolf.

I will say this- I am head over heals about terminators finally getting 2 wounds!! A massive suit of armor made for deep space combat would surely provide more protection. Thumbs up, GW!!

 

End of Line

but the issue with ignore one damage is it ignores a ton of armies weapons, in addition to knocking out high -ap weapons with a 1d3 dam roll if it rolls a 1.

 

perhaps a rule where instead of ignoring 1 dam, it reduces the -ap modifier of incoming weapons. so a ap 0 against termi armor is actually ap+1, which makes it more difficult to hurt the armor but doesnt make it impossible. or it reduces the str of the incoming shot by 1

Thats why he said to a minimum of 1. I doesn't knock out any weapon just makes 2 damage weapons and d3 damage weapons less effective versus terminators

 

oh, read it as outright removing one wound. thats much better