Boys before toys

[shanewatts]

One common thing I tend to see with Deathwatch players is that they forget the golden rule, boys before toys. With units being extremely customize-able players tend to get lost in the loop of getting more equipment for a squad than they truly need. Every squad needs to include members whose sole purpose is to die, so you need these models as cheap as possible, typically they should have no upgrades, with a few exceptions.

 

This same thought process usually leads to swiss army knife units as well, which typically is a trap within itself. If your unit is equipped to deal with vehicles and hordes, they won't be able to do both as efficiently if they were two seperate units. This is usually from a positioning standpoint.

 

YMMV.

 

Please don't take this as flaming or trying to call people out, I just want you all as fellow Deathwatch players to have a better chance for success and ultimately enjoy the game more.

[Prot]

You're absolutely right.

 

But you have to keep in mind the audience you're speaking to...especially here. As I'm sure you know a lot of people here frankly don't care about win/loss/efficiencies etc. And a lot of people do care.

 

I just came off a weekend of competitive ITC play at a local GT. The games got harder, and harder, and the lists -no matter what army- essentially took on a similar characteristic; that is to say a lot less gloss and more substance. 

 

So I essentially agree with you in principle, but I'm a player who plays both sides of this fence equally. I play very hard competition some times, and I play a lot of pure fun games and in -both- situations I use stuff I loved painting, or how it looks, etc.

 

The ITC event I just came off of was using what I'd call a sub optimal list, and I knew it. I think as long as we enter into this game/tournament/beer,pretzel league with that understanding then it's all good!

 

I think we all appreciate your own experiences though, so don't take it the wrong way :tu:

[Moostick]

I consider anyone who asks for help with a list/unit is doing so for at least semi-competitive reasons.

 

Otherwise, asking seems kind of pointless as you should just do whatever you want/follow the rule of cool.

[Prot]

I consider anyone who asks for help with a list/unit is doing so for at least semi-competitive reasons.

 

Otherwise, asking seems kind of pointless as you should just do whatever you want/follow the rule of cool.

 

Perhaps they don't understand how units interact. Perhaps a rule or making sure a list is legal. There's a lot of reasons people ask for help, but sure... follow the rule of cool. 

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to get across. What I am saying specifically is... a lot of people get a lot of different things out of 40K. This forum always keeps that in mind.

[Moostick]

No hidden meaning except exactly what I said. If I respond to someone who asks these things, I do so under the impression they are asking for how effective/competitive it is.

 

Wasn't meant to be specifically directed at your comment to disagree with it. This topic likely came from the melta topic that was asking how good it would be.

[Qui-Gon]

I have to agree with Moostick. If a person is posting a list, they are looking for critique about how competitive it is.
If a person has a question how certain units interact, then they can ask question related to that. However, if it is a list review, you are not looking to ask "how do X and Y units interact" because the list review is larger than just X and Y unit.

[UnkyHamHam]

I know I build my Deathwatch with the exact opposite approach on purpose. Toys before boys. I have codex marines and guard for the other way.

 

Part of what makes the faction unique is all the gear and creating unique dudes.

[Prot]

I know I build my Deathwatch with the exact opposite approach on purpose. Toys before boys. I have codex marines and guard for the other way.

 

Part of what makes the faction unique is all the gear and creating unique dudes.

 

That's true as well. I have to think this again shows we're all doing this for our own reasons. But as fun as the toys are, today's 40K can be brutal with only a handful of marines on the table! 

 

The GT I was just at.... I think there were maybe 2 marine armies? Maybe 3? I think it's a tough gig right now, but as you say you probably use your other armies in those situations.

[Vel'Cona]

I do generally adhere to the principle of using more models/redundancy as a best practice, however some armies just aren't well-equipped to do this to the degree that others can.  DW in particular has the struggle that our base model cost is extremely high, but unlike more overtly powerful codices such as Custodes we don't have innate durability.  The addition of Primaris Marine variants has helped somewhat, but the prevalence of multi-damage attacks and lack of ready Invulnerable saves/Feel No Pain-like mechanics means when the AP is high, we're taking wounds.  Obviously, having more bodies is huge, though if we could stack cheap durable tanks or monsters to soak firepower that would help, but the lack of a Predator/Wave Serpent/Leman Russ/etc. analog means this isn't really any option for DW either.

 

At the end of the day, DW remains a "fun" and "interesting" codex, though I wouldn't promote it as a best choice for the 8th edition meta if winning is at the core of one's personal requirements :)

[spacewatch]

...

 

At the end of the day, DW remains a "fun" and "interesting" codex, though I wouldn't promote it as a best choice for the 8th edition meta if winning is at the core of one's personal requirements

 

Ouch! DW is my first and only 40k army and now that we have Codex I have started dreaming tournament level games - some day. Hmm, maybe 1001 pts DW+999 Dark Eldar = Dark Watch, what do you mean can't do that?   Now, where did I put those Tempestus Scion boxes...  

[Vel'Cona]

Well, there are ways around this.  "Pure" DW may be limited (outside of Deep Striking 3 Leviathan Dreadnoughts and such craziness) but if you want to make some soup IG can add a ton of flexibility and pure body count.  Custodes can alternatively give you much more durability and melee threat, though your army will stay small.  I personally do not enjoy soup style armies so I would not do this, but there are tons of resources around the forums for more information on making "best of" lists.

[leth]

Very few imperial army builds are competitive without soup so it’s not a unique thing.

 

That being said, boys before toys when the toys do not add a significant amount of versatility.

 

For example, I will always upgrade to a Storm Bolter. It’s double the damage for about a 1/6th increase in points. Storm shields are at most 1-2 per squad, but when they can save a biker or two? One otherwise failed save pays for itself.

 

So on and so forth.

[Vel'Cona]

Very few imperial army builds are competitive without soup so it’s not a unique thing.

 

A sad report on the state of 8th edition, that.  I recall GW mentioning early in the release cycle for 8th that they didn't want "pure" armies to suffer like they had in prior editions, and yet here we are again.  I suppose that's a topic for another thread, though.

[spacewatch]

Very few imperial army builds are competitive without soup so it’s not a unique thing.

 

That being said, boys before toys when the toys do not add a significant amount of versatility.

 

For example, I will always upgrade to a Storm Bolter. It’s double the damage for about a 1/6th increase in points. Storm shields are at most 1-2 per squad, but when they can save a biker or two? One otherwise failed save pays for itself.

 

So on and so forth.

 

I like this way of thinking. Increasing both unit efficiency and cost effectiviness with SB upgrades is very smart thing to do. I like to think that yes there's a need for raw firepower (got to destroy that Banablade right now) but it's the cost effectiveness that matters most in the long run (if you have good enough efficiency too, which we have thanks to SIA). I do use DS SB units when I need to pop screen or capture mid game objective but I have noticed that full SB units are rapidly becoming priority targets in my local meta (IG, Fists, CSM, Tau, Orcs) so they rarely get chance to shoot twice. So, for my core units I have started to upgrade only 2-3 SB's per unit which, to be honest, has led to better tactics on my behalf because now I have to think and plan unit co-operation, split fire, long range fire support, etc. ..the whole army orchestration better. Multiple targets tend to survive better too, because enemy has to overallocate fire/melee power per unit to be sure is destroyed. So with SB upgrades I'm not any longer optimizing unit's theoretical maximum efficiency but improving unit's reliability to do it's old job better which (imo) is much more solid basis for planning overall tactics for the whole army.

 

What comes to soup ...well, I guess I just have to accept that it's the only way to go if dreaming semi-competitive/tournament games. I play a lot against IG so IG is easy choice as an ally so now my plan is to find find best possible combination of DW+IG+Inquisitor+Acolytes that is both efficient and fun to play.

[Indefragable]

Elite armies always suffer from the boys-before-toys conundrum.

 

On one hand, their inherent Eliteness usually means low model count, so you want to offset that with more boys.

 

On the other hand (as is the case with most SM factions, I feel) they are not really Elite in way that's comparable to Custodes or such. And as such, you still have to shell out to get them where they ought to be. Sort of the Forest Gump effect of "well, I got this far...might as well keep going."

 

Balancing between those two extremes is the classic dilemma.

 

I think for Elite armies like DW, resiliency is always worth spending on. Whether that's extra bodies or Storm Shields or such, if you have the points to spare, then it's almost always worth it to shell out for increased survivibility. Contrast that with glass cannon units where you dump everything into lethality: aka the 300pt Frag Cannon Supreme squad. Now, if you are a capable enough player to have survivable squads do the dying while the killy squads do the killing, and not the other way around, then you, my friend, have just cracked the code.

[MoGuy]

I also agree that it isn't that black-and-white either. The inherent dilemma here is that if we take dudes with no upgrades in our squads as ablative wounds, we still pay 19 points for "cannonfodder". Other armies pay between 6 to 10 points for those ablative wounds, thus they can actually spare them points-wise.

 

But we are so elite we can't really afford a lot of redundant guys because each Veteran must make his points back or bring some guns/options to the table. 

 

So instead of just taking naked dudes to soak up wounds I like to look at my Kill Teams and think about where they want to be on the table and how much lead is probably going to come their way.

 

An example of my Furor Kill Team that I transport in a Corvus with a Watch Master:

 

1x Sarge w/ Melter

1x TDA w/ Melter-Fist and SB

1x Blackshield w/ TH and Bolter

1x VV w/ 2x Plasma Pistols

2x Vets w/ SS and SB

2x Vets w/ FCs

1x Vet w/ SB

 

Everyone who can take it has a Chainsword.

 

They hit like a ton of bricks and are quite durable. Every guy has his purpose. Blackshield has 3 base attacks thus it makes sense that he should get a melee weapon. TDA guy is there to absorb small arms fire like Deldar poison weapons, Lasguns etc. and since this squad wants to delete armour/vehicles I gave him the Melter-Fist. Now since these guys also want to smash face in melee but also have so much guns I included a Vanguard Vet so that I can disembark from my Corvus, shoot up target A, charge target B and in my next round fall back and shoot again. The Stormshield guys help them tank Plasma shots and other MEQ-killers. The Vets with Fragcannons just melt face and the last Vet with Stormbolter gives me the option to kill a guy before I lose more expensive toys.

 

In contrast to this expensive squad I also like to run a squad to sit in my deployment zone and camp on an objective:

 

Sarge and 4x Vets w/ Stalker Bolters

1x Vet w/ Heavy Bolter

1x Vet w/ Missile Launcher

 

The ML and HB allow me to use the different stratagems that deal mortal wounds to vehicles and the Stalker Bolters serve as both fire support and ablative wounds. 

Since this squads sits back I didn't bother with Stormshields etc. since they aren't as threatening to my opponent as my other Kill Teams. Still they all have upgrades.

 

All in all I think it is mandatory that each Kill Team is build with a purpose it wants to fullfill and that each guy helps them reach their goal.

[leth]

While it is good to have bullet catchers, for the small points increase it is just not efficient to NOT take a storm bolter(especially if you plan to deep strike).  However if you are on foot? Then yes I can see it. 

 

One of the key things that is missing is that we have to factor in things like "Per wound" when thinking about our calculations as well. 

 

29 points gets you a 2 wound T 5 biker.  That is 14.5 points per T5 wound, while our regular veterans are 20 points per T4 wound.

 

HOWEVER against d3/2 wound + weapons? Our veterans pay are much cheaper.  Against anything with -2 or so? a stormshield pays for itself.   It is about mixing and matching while ALSO not spending needlessly. 

 

 

So now lets look at a unit I plan on running. I plan to run a 10 man unit of 5 bikers, 5 veterans. It will have 5 storm bolters, and 2 storm shields. The unit costs 260 points.

 

Effectively we have 15 T5 wounds with each wound costing about 17.3 points. As long as you are good about your allocation you will be able to stay T5 the entire time/not take any multi damage weapons on the bikes. The storm shields increase your survivability against the high damage/-2 or more weapons while your regular marines eat multi damage weapons with 0 or -1/eat the first wound to make sure you keep T5. The unit puts out 20-40 SIA bolter shots(or 13/6.5 points per shot), and most of the models have at least 3 attacks. 

 

This is a unit that is designed around the assumption that I will be using the strategem to deep strike them. It assumes each model will get at least one round of shooting to justify every model is upgraded. 

 

This is one of the builds that I believe beats out Primaris for a combination of damage output/survivability.  The addition of 1 wound storm shields is HUGE for unit survivability, however when you give it to every model the benefits starts to go down.