rayvn26 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 As the title states I'm having issues with a Knight heavy list. My buddy plays knights and pretty much nobody but me will play him. It's his tournament list and has three Knights and some deep striking scions. I can deal with scions relatively easy, no issues there, but them Knights I barely put a dent in them.What do you use or would use to deal with 3 Knights fully kitted out with Gatling Cannons, Battle Cannons, AA, Heavy Stubbers, flamers, and god knows what else, one has a Volcanic gun thing and a huge claw. I mean this guy is rolling dice like an orc, with additional hits scored on rolls of 6. My list is of no importance as most of my models are equipped to deal with infantry and non knight vehicles. I'll buy all new stuff to deal this menace and just add it to the glory of my Blood Angels.Thank you for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Focused fire, if you play with shooting elements never split, try to get the entire army to shoot it down. Captain with thunder hammer. He will die after his charge but you’ll then use only in death stratagem. With red rampage and death visions that’s 12-16 hammer shots. Should be enough to down one with minimal support. Repeat with Mephiston/Libby dread/2nd captain. Sanguinary guard with power fists are also pretty good if well buffed. With sanguinor or Rage 30 power fist attacks with reroll should down one on the charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayvn26 Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 So going from your example, Vanguard Vets with TH/SS should work as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Thunderhammers and Lascannons are your friends. Knights are rather overcosted currently. Deathcompany and Captains for Thunderhammers and Razorbakcs/Predators and Devastators for Lascannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 In general, knights are a bit undergunned for their points, though they don't feel like it if you haven't got the right gear to hit them. This means they are very vulnerable to horde armies - massed guard with lascannons teams will eat them for lunch, particularly in objective games. They're also somewhat vulnerable to close combat specialists. I ideally wouldn't take vehicles, as a lot of their weapons are designed to take them out - so if you're all infantry, particularly 1W infantry, they'll struggle to put enough damage out IF you can take them down fast enough. So the order of the day is thunderhammers, powerfists and lascannons where appropriate, and lots of them. Slamguinius is an autotake, and I'd say so is probably mephiston. VV with TH/SS are a good delivery mechanism for the thunderhammers, but death company are more effective with the +1 attack on the charge, and you can add cheap bodies with chainswords to help them get there - though obviously they're more of a glass hammer than SS van vets - just depends how you plan to delivery them. Though even chainswords are wounding T8 on a 5+ due to red thirst - 4+ if you can keep them in range of a priest, which is surprisingly effective in volume. A big factor will be if you use the beta deployment rule or not; if you can deep strike in 1st turn, then it's a no brainer to drop in the captain with the jump pack relic, and death company with lemartes for the re-roll charge - descent of angels should get at least one if them in, probably best used on the captain. If you've got to wait till turn 2 and have half your power points on the table, it's a more target rich environment for him and you'll need to bear that in mind. In the latter case, a stormraven full of death company and a death company or librarian dread (if you don't take mephiston) would be pretty hilarious, though a big gamble, so you'd want lasbacks to make him consider splitting his anti-vehicle fire. For troops, I think you want scouts - cheap, will hold objectives, and wastes the 2D firepower that murders primaris. Or since he's gone a bit cheesy with knights and scions, feel free to cheese him right back - some scions of your own for deep strike shooty, or just cheap guard with lascannons to rack up more CP. You're not in a tourney, so you don't need to worry about the rule of 3. Targeting, go for the one(s) with gatling cannon first - they're generally the most dangerous to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayvn26 Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 We're trying to use the tourny rules, I won't be going to any but it's practice for him. Also he doesn't get to play against BA very often outside of the tournies. So turn 2 deep strike and the rule of three thing are in play. I do like the idea of mass close combat dudes, that might freak him out a little as he normally plays against shooty armies. I'll come up with a list and hopefully with y'all's help we can tweek it to hurt his army bad if not beat him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceril Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Also play to the mission. You'll be obsec with multiple units. Evaluate a game plan both in list, ruleset, matchup and deployment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 So going from your example, Vanguard Vets with TH/SS should work as well? While they pack the much needed hammers they are very vulnerable to titanic feet and if they die you can’t use a stratagem to make them fight again. This is why I’d prefer captains and sanguinary guards. The big thing with melee is that knights loses their invulnerable saves. 6+ won’t do much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayvn26 Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 So here's what I came up with. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [35 PL, 654pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + Armoury of Baal: 2 additional Relics of Baal, -3 CP + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord Lieutenants [5 PL, 94pts] . Lieutenant: Jump Pack, Thunder hammer + Troops + Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant Scout Squad [4 PL, 97pts] . Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle . Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle . Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle . Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle . Scout Sergeant: Camo cloak, Plasma pistol, Sniper rifle Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun + Elites + Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 99pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Standard of Sacrifice ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [77 PL, 1320pts] ++ + HQ + Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]: 2. Unleash Rage, 3. Shield of Sanguinius, 6. Wings of Sanguinus Lemartes [7 PL, 129pts] + Elites + Death Company [18 PL, 296pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer Sanguinary Guard [20 PL, 195pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 390pts]: Jump Pack . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer + Heavy Support + Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerator . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol ++ Total: [112 PL, 1974pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majkhel Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 I would split VV - additional sergeant with additional attack. Also I'm not sure that sniper Rifles will do you any good. I'd rather take a heavy bolter to use the stratagem with and help with scions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 So here's what I came up with. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [35 PL, 654pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + Armoury of Baal: 2 additional Relics of Baal, -3 CP + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord Lieutenants [5 PL, 94pts] . Lieutenant: Jump Pack, Thunder hammer + Troops + Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant Scout Squad [4 PL, 97pts] . Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle . Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle . Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle . Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle . Scout Sergeant: Camo cloak, Plasma pistol, Sniper rifle Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun + Elites + Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 99pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Standard of Sacrifice ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [77 PL, 1320pts] ++ + HQ + Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]: 2. Unleash Rage, 3. Shield of Sanguinius, 6. Wings of Sanguinus Lemartes [7 PL, 129pts] + Elites + Death Company [18 PL, 296pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer Sanguinary Guard [20 PL, 195pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 390pts]: Jump Pack . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer + Heavy Support + Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerator . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol ++ Total: [112 PL, 1974pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Looks good, just wondering about Relics. You get 1 for free and then you have bought 2 more but I only see Angels Wing and Standard of Sacrifice in the list. Did you take a third or do you have a couple more CPs than you thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Company or Vanguard Vets with 3+ Storm Shields, then TH+inferno pistol on the Sgt. Inferno pistols can be a hidden gem since 9pts gets you essentially 2x extra TH hits. I also agree on splitting the VV: you want moons with just SS to eat wounds without suffering the cost of TH dudes dying. I would also shell out for inferno on the Sang Guard: go big or go home; either go all-in for killing the knights or keep them cheap w/ angelus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynnean Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Don't leviathan dreadnoughts work pretty well against knights as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 The issue is getting them close enough - they can't ride stormravens any more (latest forgeworld FAQ) and the forgeworld drop pod is still a WIP. With the amount of high D weapons on knights, I don't think it would survive walking up the board. Not something i've tried personally though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynnean Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 The issue is getting them close enough - they can't ride stormravens any more (latest forgeworld FAQ) and the forgeworld drop pod is still a WIP. With the amount of high D weapons on knights, I don't think it would survive walking up the board. Not something i've tried personally though! hmmm... Let's do some math. Leviathan with dual storm cannons: 24" range. not too unrealistic. 20 shots BS2+: 17,67 hits, S7 vs T8 is a 5+: 5,89 wounds, 5+ save: 3,92 unsaved. that means about 8 damage. Leviathan with dual grav flux bombards: 18"range 2d3 shots: average of 4 BS2+: 3,33 hits, S9 vs T8 is a 3+: 2,22 wounds, 5+ save: 1,48 unsaved, which means about 5 (or 10 rounded up) damage. Leviathan with dual cyclonic melta lance: 18"range 2d3 shots: average of 4 BS2+: 3,33 hits, S9 vs T8: 2,22 wounds, 5+ save: 1,48 unsaved, either 1d6 or 2d6 damage rounded up. Deredeo with Arachnus heavy lascannon battery: 48" range 2 shots BS2+: 1,67 hits, S10 vs T8: 1,11 wounds, 5+ save: 0,7 wounds, so 1d6 damage (+1 rare mortal wound every now and then). Lascannons devs: 4 shots BS3+: 2,67, 1,78 wounds, 1,19 unsaved, d6 damage. woah, more difficult then it looks to shoot it down Combat with thunder hammers is probably the solution indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Keep in mind that you can get almost two Lascannon Devastator Squads for one Leviathan Dread. Points per damage is way more interesting than the average damage output of a single unit. ^^ Also I'm pretty sure Arkhanist was talking about melee with the Leviathan since the Siege Drill would put a real dent into Knights with 4 S16 AP-4 D4 attacks. However if we are going there I'm just going to mention that a Librarian Dreadnought does about the same amount of damage but is protected by the character rule so is more likely to reach melee in the first place. Oh and costs way less (but is also way less likely to survive if the Knight hits back). And if we go there we come back to how a Thunderhammer Captain with Stormshield is just the better option compared to a Librarian Dread, even without turning him into Captain Smash. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynnean Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Keep in mind that you can get almost two Lascannon Devastator Squads for one Leviathan Dread. Points per damage is way more interesting than the average damage output of a single unit. ^^ Also I'm pretty sure Arkhanist was talking about melee with the Leviathan since the Siege Drill would put a real dent into Knights with 4 S16 AP-4 D4 attacks. However if we are going there I'm just going to mention that a Librarian Dreadnought does about the same amount of damage but is protected by the character rule so is more likely to reach melee in the first place. Oh and costs way less (but is also way less likely to survive if the Knight hits back). And if we go there we come back to how a Thunderhammer Captain with Stormshield is just the better option compared to a Librarian Dread, even without turning him into Captain Smash. ^^ Yip, i agree. And indeed, points per damage is more interesting, just put it up as reference haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I like the asymmetrical warfare approach to dealing with that many knights: MSU's of too-annoying-to-ignore-but-just-resilient-enough-not-to-die units seems like the way to go against that many Knights. I mean, Knights were pretty much made to easily take down things like Leviathans so that's playing into his hands, me thinks. Lots of stormshields + hammers sounds good overall. I don't really see the point of the Hellblasters or Intercessors. Save points, go scouts, and just get even MOAR hammerz or at least go Devs with lascannons and more ablative wounds then the Hellblasters, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 The avenger gatling cannon also does 12 S6 AP-2 2D shots, while the cannon and stompy feet are S8 AP-2 D3 damage which all seem purpose designed to murder primaris marines. So 10 1W models vs 5 2W models makes more sense to me. That said, the stompy feet also get 12A at WS 3+ (degrades to 4+ at half wounds) so assume any infantry he gets to step on are not going to enjoy the experience. Hit him first in the voonerables with a bunch of hammers and he'll not enjoy it either - the ion shield invulnerable only works against shooting. Lord knows what the new codex is gonna bring though, on top of what we've already seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Having a couple of heavy bolters to use hellfire rounds might be a good way to unexpectedly take the last couple of wounds off one too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just want to point something out here. Are you specifically trying to build a list to counter his army? Because if you are then you're doing good. But he won't be coming up against a list like this in tournament play. The list is too focused on anti-tank. You might want to tone it down a bit and take some anti-infantry in the list as well. Just my thoughts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just want to point something out here. Are you specifically trying to build a list to counter his army? Because if you are then you're doing good. But he won't be coming up against a list like this in tournament play. The list is too focused on anti-tank. You might want to tone it down a bit and take some anti-infantry in the list as well. Just my thoughts here. Honestly, tournaments do skew to heavier armor and more anti-tank. His firend is very likely to meet spammed anti-tank, what is less common is that it's in the form of close combat. Heavy shooting is the soup of the day in tourney meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 There's a difference between a competetive list with lots of anti-tank and a anti-Knight list tho. Competetive lists still have to deal with hordes etc. as well and can't afford to focus on anti-tank alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 There's a difference between a competetive list with lots of anti-tank and a anti-Knight list tho. Competetive lists still have to deal with hordes etc. as well and can't afford to focus on anti-tank alone. This is the point I was trying to get across. That list would get destroyed if it was playing against Orks or Iron Warriors cultist spam or even IG troop spam. It is all good if you just want to bring the pain game to your opponent... but it really is not a list you would take to a competitive environment because you risk just straight out losing if you encounter a horde list. I'm not saying don't do this.. just go in with the understanding that this list is designed to wreck an elite army built around Monstrous Creatures and Tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayvn26 Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 Yeah, I basically want to bring the pain to him. Most the guys at my LGS say his list is unbeatable and there's no way to stop him. I think for a competitive list I'd replace the intercessors with scouts. So here's what I came up with. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [35 PL, 654pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + Armoury of Baal: 2 additional Relics of Baal, -3 CP + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord Lieutenants [5 PL, 94pts]. Lieutenant: Jump Pack, Thunder hammer + Troops + Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant Scout Squad [4 PL, 97pts]. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle. Scout Sergeant: Camo cloak, Plasma pistol, Sniper rifle Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]. Scout: Boltgun. Scout: Boltgun. Scout: Boltgun. Scout: Boltgun. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun + Elites + Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 99pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Standard of Sacrifice ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [77 PL, 1320pts] ++ + HQ + Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]: 2. Unleash Rage, 3. Shield of Sanguinius, 6. Wings of Sanguinus Lemartes [7 PL, 129pts] + Elites + Death Company [18 PL, 296pts]: Jump Pack. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer Sanguinary Guard [20 PL, 195pts]. Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist. Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist. Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist. Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist. Sanguinary Guard: Plasma pistol, Power fist Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 390pts]: Jump Pack. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer. Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer + Heavy Support + Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerator. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol ++ Total: [112 PL, 1974pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Looks good, just wondering about Relics. You get 1 for free and then you have bought 2 more but I only see Angels Wing and Standard of Sacrifice in the list. Did you take a third or do you have a couple more CPs than you thought? Didn't realize I clicked 2 additional relics, it's just the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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