Leman Russes are faster than jetbikes

[antique_nova]

A Leman Russ can move 10" per turn and as it advances it can move D6, but let's say he moves 3". That's 13" in total, he can then be given a tank order and move another 13" on average. So in short, with tank orders.

 

A Leman Russ moves 22" minimum, 26" on average and 32" max.

 

A wave serpeant can only move 22" max per turn.

 

Can anyone else see just how absurd that is?

 

Because a Leman Russ is faster than a vertus praetor, a shining spear, a space marine on a bike and anything that does not fly or teleport.

 

Like seriously, I swear someone was drunk or super high or just loves tanks too much in general when they wrote that rule.

 

In short, they can capture objectives across the board like no other.

[Bonzi]

In return for sacrificing ALL of their shooting, which is abandoning the primary purpose of the tank. As objective capturing units they are trumped by any Troop unit and any other unit with two or more models. I have see a guard player only once do a maximum move in all the games I've played against them and with them.

 

Most competent guard players prefer to capture points with more expendable units. This issue doesn't even wiggle the needle on broken things units can do in this game.

[antique_nova]

I didn't even mention it was broken, I just said it was absurd, which aren't the same things.

 

Most Leman Russes pack enough firepower to easily just a troops unit and then run over to cap it. If not, then they can spent a turn to move into a position where they can or leave it up to another tank or unit which doesn't need to zoom across the board.

 

Also, troop units lack the mobility of the tanks in the scenario is was presented as the objective I'm discussing would be on the other side of the board. So. the chances or other guard units being able to do it and cheaper than a Leman Russ are rare.

 

But we both know that the primary purpose of the tank is to provide heavy fire support and I forgot to mention that it's more ridiculous when done during late game, when most units will most likely have be destroyed.

[TheShredder]

Some of the movement aspects of the game are a bit nonsensical. 

For example, Dark Eldar craft supposedly trade armour for speed . . . and yet a Raider is actually slower than the heavily-armoured Eldar tanks. Even the Venom can just barely keep pace with them.

 

Then you've got Advance and Charge moves not really making any kind of sense. A model gives up its entire turn to Advance, yet somehow covers less ground than a model which first stops to shoot and then stops again to fight.

Anyway, regarding Leman Russ tanks, I don't think they should have a base movement of 10". That just seems way too fast for what is supposed to be a lumbering tank. Especially when looking at comparable vehicles and monsters (many of which can only move 8").  

[antique_nova]

I agree.

 

Also, it doesn't seem sensible that a Leman Russ (where millions are produced almost on a weekly basis) should be tougher than a predator (which is meant to have better weapons, speed and armour than your average tank. Plus, the armour composition should be harder and harder to get a hold of). At the very least, Leman Russes should have the same toughness as a predator.

[Kinstryfe]

I agree.

 

Also, it doesn't seem sensible that a Leman Russ (where millions are produced almost on a weekly basis) should be tougher than a predator (which is meant to have better weapons, speed and armour than your average tank. Plus, the armour composition should be harder and harder to get a hold of). At the very least, Leman Russes should have the same toughness as a predator.

This one is at least sensible in fluff terms. Astartes tanks are primarily built off of one chassis (Raiders being the original exception), and it's very likely due to this that they use Predators instead of adapting Leman Russes to their own use (Space Wolves sorta as an exception in some editions). I'm sure if a Marine chapter really wanted Leman Russ battle tanks, they could get them in a heartbeat, but that means they have to start carrying the logistics for repair with them wherever they go. Not only are RH1N0 chassis somewhat self repairing, they're renowned for being especially easy to manufacture and repair. So if you're going to battle with 5 RH1N0s, 2 Razorbacks, 2 Predators, and a Vindicator, a lot of components are going to be the same between them. Leman Russes may be tougher and even more effective than a predator, but Astartes would lose the ease of repair and interchangeably between their line tanks. So it may not make a ton of sense /externally/, but it can be justified internally in setting.

[tychobi]

Orders are a tad broken all around but move move move breaks the third wall every time. Feels just as silly when infantry scoots 20+ to grab objectives.

[Closet Skeleton]

All 40k vehicles are woefully slow if you treat their table top speed as their actual max speed.

 

Any infantryman can apparently leg it off the table pretty much instantly when a morale check is failed.

 

I agree.

 

Also, it doesn't seem sensible that a Leman Russ (where millions are produced almost on a weekly basis) should be tougher than a predator (which is meant to have better weapons, speed and armour than your average tank. Plus, the armour composition should be harder and harder to get a hold of). At the very least, Leman Russes should have the same toughness as a predator.

 

I've never seen a predator described as an above average tank.

 

A Leman Russ is a heavy tank, a Predator is a light tank. The predator might be the better vehicle in theory but its not going to be as tough or heavily gunned. A real life example would be the American Sherman vs the German Tiger II. The Sherman was the better vehicle with regards to production quality and general design but would lose any actual fight because its weapons and armour weren't on the same level.

 

The 8th ed rules are a much better fit for the actual MarkII based Predator model though, since unlike the Deimos/mark I pattern it has the exact same front plate as the rhino.

 

At least a sponson-less autocannon predator isn't outgunned by a goliath truck anymore.

[Shamansky]

You all are forgetting the thing which was described in one of the older rulebooks. That was something like your units do not have your god-like awarness of their surroundings that's why they need to stop and look around or walk slowly on overwatch.

After movement they shoot and need to take aim for it. So if you order them to move instead of shooting they simply do not waste their time and run or ride twice the distance they would go normally. So everything is absolutely logical in frames of in-game logic. And this is full of assumptions.

[Bonzi]

Well, logic kind of falls off the table when a daemon made of lies casts a magic spell that guts a flying tank made by singing semi plastic semi sentient bone material into a desired shape....that is guided by ghosts trapped in stone while gunships with all the aerodynamic attributes of a brick swoop through the sky overhead and guys with swords covered in holy blood hack at daemons made of blood.

[librisrouge]

Well, logic kind of falls off the table when a daemon made of lies casts a magic spell that guts a flying tank made by singing semi plastic semi sentient bone material into a desired shape....that is guided by ghosts trapped in stone while gunships with all the aerodynamic attributes of a brick swoop through the sky overhead and guys with swords covered in holy blood hack at daemons made of blood.

Across that same battlefield, soldiers from WWII are fighting besides Mongols on horseback, while supported by towering warmachines the size of medium buildings, against circus clowns who're looking to kill Private Jenkins because they were told his Great-Great-Great Grandson will someday upset a fungus who'll led a massive spoor migrations into the home of the clown's monk friends.

[Private Jenkins]

I can confirm that my great great grandson did indeed upset that fungus. It didn't end well.

[Frater Cornelius]

Life footage of Imperial tank engaging Eldar Jetbikes:

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww195/anime-junkie/Misc/Excelsior.jpg

[Bonzi]

I have given this some thought and a relevant joke comes to mind: 'Whats the fastest car in the world? Answer: A rental.'

 

Russes may be so fast because they are mass produced and their service life is only slightly longer than your average guardsman. A marine pilot driving a predator even at full tilt is probably trying to preserve the vehicle that may well be a chapter relic. When a Russ driver is given the order for full advance he's jamming the throttle past the stops, redlining the transmission and isn't swerving to avoid obstacles that may damage his tracks or wreck his suspension. He's a guardsman and he's been given a direct order, he can obey or die.

[Aothaine]

I have given this some thought and a relevant joke comes to mind: 'Whats the fastest car in the world? Answer: A rental.'

 

Russes may be so fast because they are mass produced and their service life is only slightly longer than your average guardsman. A marine pilot driving a predator even at full tilt is probably trying to preserve the vehicle that may well be a chapter relic. When a Russ driver is given the order for full advance he's jamming the throttle past the stops, redlining the transmission and isn't swerving to avoid obstacles that may damage his tracks or wreck his suspension. He's a guardsman and he's been given a direct order, he can obey or die.

 

Totally agree with this statement.

[Plasmablasts]

He's a guardsman and he's been given a direct order, he can obey or die.

How did “or” get into that sentence? I think you meant “and”.

[Mileposter]

 

He's a guardsman and he's been given a direct order, he can obey or die.

How did “or” get into that sentence? I think you meant “and”.

 

Guardsmen are here for one thing:

To die for the Emperor, or die trying.

[Indefragable]

 

I agree.

 

Also, it doesn't seem sensible that a Leman Russ (where millions are produced almost on a weekly basis) should be tougher than a predator (which is meant to have better weapons, speed and armour than your average tank. Plus, the armour composition should be harder and harder to get a hold of). At the very least, Leman Russes should have the same toughness as a predator.

This one is at least sensible in fluff terms. Astartes tanks are primarily built off of one chassis (Raiders being the original exception), and it's very likely due to this that they use Predators instead of adapting Leman Russes to their own use (Space Wolves sorta as an exception in some editions). I'm sure if a Marine chapter really wanted Leman Russ battle tanks, they could get them in a heartbeat, but that means they have to start carrying the logistics for repair with them wherever they go. Not only are RH1N0 chassis somewhat self repairing, they're renowned for being especially easy to manufacture and repair. So if you're going to battle with 5 RH1N0s, 2 Razorbacks, 2 Predators, and a Vindicator, a lot of components are going to be the same between them. Leman Russes may be tougher and even more effective than a predator, but Astartes would lose the ease of repair and interchangeably between their line tanks. So it may not make a ton of sense /externally/, but it can be justified internally in setting.

 

 

I always thought Predators were "worse" than Leman Russes because the true strength of an Astartes army is the Astartes themselves. Predators are there to lug even heavier guns around and provide some protection against bigger guns...but all the while its the Space Marines themselves that do most of the work. This will show some bias towards my Blood Angels mode of thinking) but I've pictured the "preferred" way of taking out an enemy take as Assault Marines jumping on top and planting melta bombs, then leaping away. The Predators are there to take out 1-2's of enemy army or to hold enemy armor formations in place for the aforementioned melta bombing technique. SM also are inherently expeditionary forces, and such as lighter and easier to deploy types of vehicles are there preference, even if they sacrifice some defensive capabilities.

 

Leman Russes, on the other hand. are a centerpiece unit of an armored line, meant to slog forward in large formations taking heavy fire the whole time. They need larger, heavier landing ships to deploy and far more equipment to maintain, service, repair, etc... That doesn't preclude them from being mass-produced, they just are designed with different roles in mind.

 

Predators support the infantry while infantry support the Leman Russes.

 

 

Well, logic kind of falls off the table when a daemon made of lies casts a magic spell that guts a flying tank made by singing semi plastic semi sentient bone material into a desired shape....that is guided by ghosts trapped in stone while gunships with all the aerodynamic attributes of a brick swoop through the sky overhead and guys with swords covered in holy blood hack at daemons made of blood.

Across that same battlefield, soldiers from WWII are fighting besides Mongols on horseback, while supported by towering warmachines the size of medium buildings, against circus clowns who're looking to kill Private Jenkins because they were told his Great-Great-Great Grandson will someday upset a fungus who'll led a massive spoor migrations into the home of the clown's monk friends.

 

 

...and that's when you start to realize that the Imperium's policy of "Ignorance is bliss" actually makes your head hurt less than trying to make sense of all of the above.

 

I can confirm that my great great grandson did indeed upset that fungus. It didn't end well.

 

Wait...how do you....did you time-trav....oh man. The Warp.