Warp Talons in a post FAQ world

[Bulwyf]

The fluff for Warp Talons is excellent. The models look great. You would think it would mean a good unit on the tabletop but we all know that's not true.

 

I want to make WT work but after the FAQ i just can't see how to fit them into a list. You can't move after porting in. You can't get warptime put on you. You have zero ranged weapons so unlike Raptors you can't shoot something for first turn and then move in for CC. You port in, can't move, can't advance and have to trust in a 9 inch charge just to fulfill your role of tying up a vehicle or two for a turn.

 

So how do you guys play them now if at all?

[Gederas]

So how do you guys play them now if at all?

In short:

 

I don't. They're sitting in my box of Chaos Marines, just in the same grey primer I got them in from a friend. And they'll stay that way.

 

In long:

 

They're too expensive for a suicide unit, because at this point, that's all they are. 135 points for a throw-away unit? Uhhh... NO? I could get another squad of 8 Chainaxe/Chainsword Khorne Berzerkers for that price, who do the Warp Talons' melee job BETTER.

 

Only way I can see them being of any use, for me, is that I play Khorne Daemonkin with my World Eaters. Which means Locus of Rage affects them because they're Daemons. So they can at least reroll their (likely) failed charge with a ~26-ish percent chance to succeed (apparently the math comes out to that on a 9 inch charge with 2d6, you've a little over 26% to successfully make it in).

 

Warp Talons were okay-to-decent beforehand, then the FAQ put them back in the dumpster, with a match.

 

The way I could see them being made better:

• Give them Icons. Icon of Wrath would help their charge issues SO MUCH
• Make it so Warpflame Strike also gives a bonus to their charge range

[Panzer]

IF i were to play them, I'd probably try to cast Warptime on a big unit of them and shove them into the enemys face turn 1 together with 1-2 Heldrakes.

[Gederas]

IF i were to play them, I'd probably try to cast Warptime on a big unit of them and shove them into the enemys face turn 1 together with 1-2 Heldrakes.

Except that means you're ignoring their key rule which denies overwatch when they deep strike in :lol:

[shandwen]

 

IF i were to play them, I'd probably try to cast Warptime on a big unit of them and shove them into the enemys face turn 1 together with 1-2 Heldrakes.

Except that means you're ignoring their key rule which denies overwatch when they deep strike in :lol:

I wouldn't say he is ignoring it, but rather showing how useless the rule is and planing accordingly.

[Panzer]

 

IF i were to play them, I'd probably try to cast Warptime on a big unit of them and shove them into the enemys face turn 1 together with 1-2 Heldrakes.

Except that means you're ignoring their key rule which denies overwatch when they deep strike in

 

 

Ignoring, yes. Not forgetting. It's a worthless rule now and if you try to use them with just that rule in mind you'll fail spectacularly.

[techsoldaten]

Immunity from OW is still important. With a command point reroll, your odds of getting into cc after deep strike are like 46%. That's not good, but it's not the worst thing, either.

 

I don't see a role for them in most lists, but I suppose someone who already invested in Warp Talons should be able to find a use. The models look cool enough that I'd hate to see them just sitting on a shelf.

[Panzer]

46% are terrible odds to make something crucial as a charge, just saying. It's practically gambling. If you fail it you are about to lose a lot of points that did nothing (so most of the time). Better try to use them in a way so they are actually likely to reach their target and ignore that special rule.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I want them to be so awesome because their fluff is, subjectively, so awesome...but unfortunately there's no good reason to deep strike them.

[Mekhitar]

The only time I’ve had them be useful to me is a deepstrike Hail Mary charge on a hemlock wraith fighter, so my flying DP could get in without getting roasted.

 

But - as cool as they are, and they are very cool, I just don’t have a place for them in my lists most days.

[techsoldaten]

46% are terrible odds to make something crucial as a charge, just saying. It's practically gambling. If you fail it you are about to lose a lot of points that did nothing (so most of the time). Better try to use them in a way so they are actually likely to reach their target and ignore that special rule.

 

It's not just like gambling, it's like betting on black : )

 

But that's only considering Warp Talons as an individual unit. Let's say they are standing next to 2 other units that are also charging. Maybe against a unit with a pair of flamers, or something else that automatically hits (like Soulburner Petards?)

 

The combined odds of at least one unit making the 9 inch charge would be over 80% (higher with a command point reroll.) I would love to have a 46% chance to negate overwatch on all of them.

 

So maybe we are saying Warp Talons are risky on their own, but they could be useful when charging together with another unit. That doesn't make them an optimal choice, but it does recognize their power isn't worthless.

[Deadman Wade]

I don't find them useful anymore. The main problem with this kind of units (hard-hitting and expensive) is to create enough target saturation and/or big threats so that opponent would have to ignore them for a turn or two, but we don't have fast moving and hard-hitting units that can draw away anti-infantry fire  from warp talons. Distraction and target saturation is a role either for vehicles (rhinos with berzerkers and possessed, fiends) or for heavy infantry (deep striking terminators and obliterators), and both of them draw anti-vehicle and good AP fire, so talons can be wiped with simple anti-infanrty weapons. They are T4 1W marines after all.

So footslogging isn't an option, and deep strike charge is heavily nerfed. I find possessed in rhino a better unit for just ~20 more points, and possessed aren't great unit either.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Jetpack units should have a bonus for charge roll when they deepstrike. It make no sense a cloumsy terminator units got as many chance as a warp talon/raptor/assault squad unit (which is suppose to stomp the enemy face when landing) to reach close when deepstriking. 

 

The ignore overwatch rules is not useless, it's great but it's clearly too hard to get a 9+ roll nowadays (especially for this overspecialised units, who cant do :cuss if they miss the charge). 

 

If you want quick units to charge asap, biker are better. 

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I'll echo everything that was said here, they're just so difficult to make work off a deepstrike charge.  In fact I've hung up my entire Night Lords list while I try to make sense of how to work the army.  Such a cool unit that isn't getting the most out of it's own rules.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

In a "Daemonkin" army that combines CSM and Daemon detachments, they can work. 

 

For example, a Khorne Daemon detachment can simply put a character next to Khorne Warp Talons that just arrived, and now they get rerolls on charges.

 

A Tzeentch Daemon sorcerer can use Gaze of Fate to grab a reroll for Tzeentch Talons also.

 

In addition, there are tons of defensive or CC bonuses that are worth it for them too. There will also be lots of distraction, given that the above Khorne army will have tons of Bloodletters and Tzeentch can have Flamers and/or Exalted Flamers at the same point of attack. There is nothing pretty about any of that if it gets close and that should make the opponent think.

 

This takes them from extremely risky, to usable. Of course, Possessed benefit from many of the same things and go from mediocre to pretty great with the right Daemon support, so it still leaves one wondering.

 

The easiest thing they could do to make WT's viable would be to let them get within 6 inches of the enemy instead of 9 when they arrive. Just make it part of Warpflame Strike.

[Marshlands]

In a "Daemonkin" army that combines CSM and Daemon detachments, they can work.

 

For example, a Khorne Daemon detachment can simply put a character next to Khorne Warp Talons that just arrived, and now they get rerolls on charges.

 

A Tzeentch Daemon sorcerer can use Gaze of Fate to grab a reroll for Tzeentch Talons also.

 

In addition, there are tons of defensive or CC bonuses that are worth it for them too. There will also be lots of distraction, given that the above Khorne army will have tons of Bloodletters and Tzeentch can have Flamers and/or Exalted Flamers at the same point of attack. There is nothing pretty about any of that if it gets close and that should make the opponent think.

 

This takes them from extremely risky, to usable. Of course, Possessed benefit from many of the same things and go from mediocre to pretty great with the right Daemon support, so it still leaves one wondering.

 

The easiest thing they could do to make WT's viable would be to let them get within 6 inches of the enemy instead of 9 when they arrive. Just make it part of Warpflame Strike.

I would echo that faction specific benefits make them better, but they are generally overshadowed by other units. The ways i would consider using them is:

 

1 squad of 10 world eaters deployed hidden on table and warp timed forward, probably with prescience.

 

Nurgle daemonkin for gnarlmaw, epidemius, loci, psychic power etc buffs in which case they can be quite tough and killy.

 

Theres better options for both plays though.

[Bulwyf]

I thought Chaos Demons in a CSM army means it can't be battle forged now...

[Zodd1888]

It's as long as your detatchment is a single faction keyword other than Chaos, Imperium, or Dirty Monsters.

 

You can run Chaos Daemons with CSM as 2 separate detatchments.

[Bulwyf]

It's as long as your detatchment is a single faction keyword other than Chaos, Imperium, or Dirty Monsters.

 

You can run Chaos Daemons with CSM as 2 separate detatchments.

 

But doesn't that mean it is no longer battle forged?

[Panzer]

 

It's as long as your detatchment is a single faction keyword other than Chaos, Imperium, or Dirty Monsters.

You can run Chaos Daemons with CSM as 2 separate detatchments.

 

 

But doesn't that mean it is no longer battle forged?

No of course it doesn't mean that. The only requirement for battleforged is that all your units are in proper detachments.

[Mekhitar]

Pre FAQ, you could run a battalion detachment with Celestine and a space marine librarian as HQs, and three guard squads as troops. Or for us: you could have a bloodthirster and Lucius the Eternal as HQs, and three squads of horrors as troops.

 

This was “soup” because the only keyword the battalion shared was Imperium or Chaos.

 

Now, you can still run Lucius and horrors, but they would need to be in a heretic astartis detachment and in a separate daemon detachment*. The keyword Chaos unites all your detachments to each other, which is fine; it just cannot be the only thing -inside- a detachment that unites them.

 

As for warp talons; I hold on it hope that future mono god codecies will have potentially useful stratagems for them - not unlike death guard/nurgle - but ones that may better synergize with them being fast (slaanesh) or Killy (khorne). Right now some bonuses exist, by th y are either awkward - like adv + charge, useless after a deepstrike - or not quite enough to tip the scales.

[Marshlands]

 

 

It's as long as your detatchment is a single faction keyword other than Chaos, Imperium, or Dirty Monsters.

 

You can run Chaos Daemons with CSM as 2 separate detatchments.

But doesn't that mean it is no longer battle forged?

Further to what others have said you can still have your army faction as Chaos, and be battleforged. The restriction is only that each detachment must have a keyword other than Chaos (which could be heratic astartes or nurgle for example).

 

This part of the Faq has far less restrictions than it seems at first. The example above of using lucius plus horrors for example, but could still take lucius plus daemonettes in a slanesh detachment or say lucius, ahriman, Khârn and typhus in a heretic astartes detachment

 

EDIT: that sounds like a really fun list :)