Chainsword MSU Crusader Squads - worth it?

[HighMarshalAmp]

130 points would get me 8 Bolt Pistols, 24 Chainsword attacks and 5 CP.

 

Compared to 10 Bolt Pistols, 20 Bolter attacks and 5 CP with a barebones Tac Squad.

 

That's 2 more attacks with the Chainsword Squads, innit?

 

I'm facing a rather allrounder oriented meta with many shooty units going for CC if they can - and they kick backside when they go for it - so the CC attacks in my opponent's turn seem like a good thing to me.

 

Thing is, I've got some Vanguard Vets ready to paint up and some Terminators I want to order?and those guys can Deep Strike.

And I'm using different Chapters for shooty stuff, so there ain't much use in ranged Crusader Squads either.

 

And if I put them on an objective, what's to stop my opponent from picking them off from afar?

 

Still, 5 CP are 5 CP...

 

So are the 10 Chainsword Crusaders worth it?

[Schlitzaf]

Short answer no. Long answer is naked ChainBro for objective holding Scouts are better. Full explanation;

 

Melee units do not want to be MSU, Small Squads means you cannot interrupt effectively, further you are likely be charged and wiped before you can swing (reception of charge) if you MSU you want to faux Devi for that reason as Crusaders. Because it allows you +4 command points over a spearhead detachment. Or 60ish more point for 4 command points (2nd HQ will likely be cheap Liu or Techmarine).

 

And if your spending a ‘troop’ tax for those extra CP those troop taxes should do something. Which means Scouts, or FauxDevi Crusaders for Templars. ‘Normal’ Templar Troops are not really a tax, either Tide Squads at 200ish points (at which point they more of a main unit then a tax) or Intercessors (90-100ish point solid fire support). Or a FauxDevi in Razors (200ish points).

 

130 points would give you nearly 2 6 Man Scout Squads or 2 5 Man Scout with Heavy Bolters would be far better and more flexible than 2 naked 5 Man Crusaders. Crusaders should replace Devestator Squad, Naked (No Toy (Power Weapon etc) Vangaurd or used in Razorspam list, and in Rhino Rushes as 5-4 Squads. Otherwise you are just wasting points, or spending ‘tax’. That is why scouts are used to fill troop is they are the least bad units to take as a tax (cheap no upgrade MSU). Sense they have flexibility that ‘tax’ power armor squads just don’t have.

 

Long story short; Scouts are better if you just want units to fill ‘tax’ slots. If you want ‘line’ troops (willing to spend 200ish points) or Fire Support troop (100ish points) that when you run Crusaders/Intercessors and other power armor units.

[Halandaar]

Melee units do not want to be MSU, Small Squads means you cannot interrupt effectively, further you are likely be charged and wiped before you can swing (reception of charge) if you MSU you want to faux Devi for that reason as Crusaders. 

 

Excuse my ignorance, but what is "Faux Devi"?

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I'm guessing the ability of crusader squads to have a SB with combi weapon, special weapon, and heavy weapon in a unit of 5.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Pretty much, If you take 5 Inits, one with PlasmaGun, one with Combi-Plasma and a heavy weapon you can deal a surprising about of medium and long range dakka for so small a squad. If you also place them in cover on an objective, they can be surprisingly hard to shift. (Stick them under a Marshal's Crusader Helm aura and you can out-firebase Ultramarines!)

 

I think when he says 'naked' Vanguard Squad he means taking basic marine models armed with chainswords and bolt pistols, but playing them as Vanguard Veterans instead of Crusaders. The advantage is you pay a little more per model, but gain an extra close combat attack on each one. For similar reasons I would play 'naked' Assault Marines as Vanguad Vets as well.

 

Schlitzaf has a lot of terms like this which could probably do with adding to the resources thread under lexicon. Which gives me an idea...

[Dark_Jober]

 

Melee units do not want to be MSU, Small Squads means you cannot interrupt effectively, further you are likely be charged and wiped before you can swing (reception of charge) if you MSU you want to faux Devi for that reason as Crusaders. 

 

Excuse my ignorance, but what is "Faux Devi"?

 

 

Faux Devi is Faux Devastator squad.

A Faux Devastator is a Crusader Squad equipped with heavy weapon, special weapon and sometimes combi-weapon in the Swordbrother, so you get a Troop with 5man with Plas/Plas/Heavy. It costs around 120-125p

 

 

 

Answering to Brother Adelard:

Yeah, 5man units with Plas/Plas/Heavy have a good firepower but still dying like 5 normal marines and 120p spent in a midrange unit...

IMO for that points it is much better buying a Devastator squad with 3 heavy weapons, and you have the +1 to hit with the Signum (only one marine).

I like Las/Missile/HvBolter or Missile/Missile/HvyBolter. For 5p you can add a Cherub,  and gaining access to the Cherub-Flakk Missile/Hellfire Shells combo (FAQed) for only 130p.

More firepower, more range than normal plasma (important), signum, cherub...

[HighMarshalAmp]

I just went over my army lists again and tried to see what I definitely want in my Templars list.

 

Fun/ tragic fact: my Captain/ Marshal model isn't one I definitely want to use... I'd rather have a Terminator Captain instead. Which sucks because I like my Jump Pack Captain! A lot!

He just doesn't leave enough space for some other stuff...

 

Also, I've got this shooty Crusader Squad with Meltas that kinda doesn't do anything my Ultramarines don't do better...

Maybe them and Marshal Amp need to take a break from this list.

They still make for a nice Patrol Detachment at 230 Points that might fill some point gaps in the future - or I could try getting them to 400 points.

 

So apart from them, I now have a list of Templar units I want to play that doesn't fit any detachment yet.

It has 251 Points to spare and to distribute between 3 Troop choices though.

 

Just if anybody's interested, I'm aiming for about 800 Points with each of my Chapters except for Raven Guard, which I've got planned at exactly 400 Points and Dark Angels which I can put 400 Points together from.

The plan is to mix and match Chapters to taste at 3 Detachments and 2000 Points.

 

And before you scold me for that not being fluffy, think about having a DA Plasma Gunline in the back with Jump Pack Templars kicking behind at the front and Heavy Weapon toting, Power Sword wielding Raven Guard Successors holding the objectives at -1 to hit from 12" or further away...

If that ain't fluffy, I don't wanna be fluffy...

 

Edit: And with Marshal Amp, the Shooty Crusaders, an Assault Squad (C'mon, they can't be that bad with Jump Packs AND rerolls... Also: red trim for style Points!) with 2 Plasma Pistols and an Eviscerator on the Searg... *ahem* Sword Brother and finally a Company Champion, I got 400 Points exactly.

#AThingOfBeauty

 

7th Edition Allied Detachments would have been so proud...

[Schlitzaf]

For clarity sake FauxDevi is exactly what the others have said and I used the term in particular because MSU Heavy/Special/Special, is equivalent to a 2 Heavy Weapon Devi or 3 Heavy Weapon Devi if in Rapid. My personably preferred FauxDevi is Plasma/Plasma/HeavyBolter to use Hellfire with. And it’s cheap about 100 points. While the Lascannon Variant is 118 and doesn’t want to move while Plasma do.

 

Also Crusaders should be used over Naked Vangaurd (NoPack, No PowWeapon)* because they put same number of strength 4 AP -. Except the Crusaders put out 1/3 from shooting to Vangaurd 1/2 to 1/4 depending

 

*Only tide (13+) Squads of Equal Neo/Init ratio smaller naked ChainBros of 5 Man are better as Vangaurd

[Sword Brother Adelard]

How on earth does the same number of Crusaders armed the same as the same number of Vanguard Vets have the same S4 AP0 output? They both have 1 ranged pistol attack, but each veteran has one more attack base?

[arigatous]

How on earth does the same number of Crusaders armed the same as the same number of Vanguard Vets have the same S4 AP0 output? They both have 1 ranged pistol attack, but each veteran has one more attack base?

 

Naked Vet is 16 points, Naked Crus is 12 points. So you get 4 Cruz with 3 attacks each for the same points as 3 Vets with 4 attacks each, which in turn means the same total number of attacks (and more wounds).

[arigatous]

For clarity sake FauxDevi is exactly what the others have said and I used the term in particular because MSU Heavy/Special/Special, is equivalent to a 2 Heavy Weapon Devi or 3 Heavy Weapon Devi if in Rapid. My personably preferred FauxDevi is Plasma/Plasma/HeavyBolter to use Hellfire with. And it’s cheap about 100 points. 

 

I prefer plasma/plasma/grav. As per latest FAQ Heavy Bolter is reserved for real Devs - two shots on 2+ per stratagem is really not the same as one shot on 3+

[AndrewChristlieb]

Devis are better at their job then a kitted msu crusader squad obviously, but their benefit is by filling those sweet sweet troop spots. I like 2-4 msu mid range rocking plas/plas/heavy. They’re more expensive then scouts, but then... they’re scouts :/ msu scouts kinda suck imo. Back that up with a couple long range devi squads (las/missile) and you have a solid firebase for fairly cheap. Tack on a crusader blob ir two and some vanguards for a decent black tide core.

 

Edit: I’ll have to check out the faq sometime though, it never seems to be up when I try to download it

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

How on earth does the same number of Crusaders armed the same as the same number of Vanguard Vets have the same S4 AP0 output? They both have 1 ranged pistol attack, but each veteran has one more attack base?

Naked Vet is 16 points, Naked Crus is 12 points. So you get 4 Cruz with 3 attacks each for the same points as 3 Vets with 4 attacks each, which in turn means the same total number of attacks (and more wounds).

But the question I asked was about the number of models. If you have ten models armed with bolt pistols and chainswords, vanguard are better. (Crusaders are 13 btw) for me, the models are more of a limiting factor than the points, as our meta is mostly WYSIWYG.

 

Edit: even on points, Vanguard are better. If we had a limit of 130 points I could buy 10 Crusaders with 31 attacks, for 128 points I can buy 8 Vanguard with 33. (I admit the obvious trade off of wounds,)

On the Maths Vanguard are a more efficient unit as each attack costs 4 points, not 4.25, on that basis Crusaders should be 12.

 

Eurgh, I feel dirty.

[Schlitzaf]

Adelard, Crusaders are 12 because Neo’s are 11 and Inits are 13, so if you take equal Neo/Init Ratio the average naked Crusader is “12” points

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I refer again to my same model point.

[Schlitzaf]

Adel, 4 Crusaders (2 Neo (11pt) And 2 Inits (13pts)) is 48 points for 12 Strength 4 AP - Attacks. 3 Vangaurd (16pts) is 48 points for 12 Strength 4 AP - Attacks.

 

The difference is 33% of the Crusaders attack come from Pistols (1 Base, 1 Chain, 1 Pistol) while 25-50% come from Pistols for Vangaurd (2 base, 0-2 Chain, 0-2 Pistols).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Neos are a different model. The OP asked about 10 initiate models. Hence my comments. I only have 10 neo models painted, and far more initiates.

[Schlitzaf]

I mean naked 5 Man MSU Crusaders are bad for reasons outlined above and in that case I would take Vangaurd. For well same reasons your post illustrated but I was talking how if your taking naked Vangaurd better off taking tide crusaders

[arigatous]

 

(I admit the obvious trade off of wounds)

 

 

That's somewhat more important than most people think. People tend to compare full attack power, while on the real battlefield most melee units are somewhat damaged most of the time. 9 Vets and 12 Cruz for the same points is one story, but after losing 4 models we're talking of 5 Vets and 8 Crus. Thus in a real fight that's not just some extra wounds, but a huge impact on attack power.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, I agree. The maths only really works if everyone makes it!