Knight Helverins- The Superior Firbase for us?

[CrimsonExarch]

Hey folks this discussion is from a more competitive standpoint.

 

The new Knight Helverins seem very good for their points cost and play quite well to our mobile play-style. 

 

For 174 pts you get:
 

4d3 shots each at 60inches, str7, -1 ap, 3 dmg and a Heavy stubber.

 

They are t7, 12 wounds, 3+, 5++.

 

Can move 14 inches and don't suffer the penalty of moving and firing heavy weps. 

 

They have a strat that gives them +1 to hit units with the FLY keyword.

 

Whats not to love here? Well they contribute no CP to our army.....But that's pretty much the only downside. They are superior to preds in almost every way and I think they could provide the best fire-base for a BA army. They probably have a fairly high power level too which would help us put more of our key units in reserve.

 

I'm thinking of taking 4 of these bad boys for 696 points in my 2k list. Add a batallion detachment and then a spearhead/vanguard/outrider detachment for a comfortable 9 CP.....

 

What do you guys think?

 

[Panzer]

It's great to mow down infantry like (Primaris) Marines and to destroy light vehicles like Eldar ones but other than that I don't think it's that overwhelming. It wounds most vehicles only on 4+ or even 5+ and AP-1 means that most wounds won't get through. For example against a Rhino it would do only 3 damage after moving. Against a Leman Russ even less due T8.

 

It's not terrible and certainly better than a Autocannon Predator but nobody really takes Autocannon Predators anyway so it's not something I'd immediately jump on. ^^

[CrimsonExarch]

It's great to mow down infantry like (Primaris) Marines and to destroy light vehicles like Eldar ones but other than that I don't think it's that overwhelming. It wounds most vehicles only on 4+ or even 5+ and AP-1 means that most wounds won't get through. For example against a Rhino it would do only 3 damage after moving. Against a Leman Russ even less due T8.

 

It's not terrible and certainly better than a Autocannon Predator but nobody really takes Autocannon Predators anyway so it's not something I'd immediately jump on. ^^

 

I see your points but I still feel you are under-valuing these things. 8th edition has shown us the value of weight of shots and these guys put out eight Str 7 -1 AP shots each on average which is more than enough to force wounds through on T7 things. There are very few models being played right now in the competitive meta that are T8.....

[Panzer]

Weight of shots isn't a new concept. It has always been an important factor. So no I'm not under-valuing that part. I'm not saying it's a terrible unit by any means. I just think that they work best against elite-ish infantry and that we have better things against vehicles and monsters.

[Brother Crimson]

They will probably be better at hunting custode jet bikes. The low ap does not matter much because the target have invulnerable saves anyway. S7 is enough to punch through t6 and damage 3 is good. Add to that a reroll against fly keyword. It’s almost like it was made to kill these jet bikes.

[Panzer]

Yeah something as bikes and Crisis Suits of course as well.

Also bigger daemons due them having basically no armor.

[Brother Crimson]

In all cases our dreadnought feel pale compared to them.

[Panzer]

That's true. If you have no detachment limit and you don't want something specific like a Librarian Dread or a Lascannon/CCW Dread then you're better off with an Armiger.

[Kallas]

IIt's not terrible and certainly better than a Autocannon Predator but nobody really takes Autocannon Predators anyway so it's not something I'd immediately jump on. ^^

Well, Predator Autocannons are absolutely not to be sniffed at, even without Killshot. With Killshot, Predator Destructors (PAC/Heavy Bolters) are great.

 

That's coming from experience: I've been using three Predator Destructors for many games in 8th now, and they're great. Pretty much all Space Marine vehicles need a little kick in the ass, rules/points wise, but pound for pound Predator Destructors are damn solid.

 

As for the Armiger Helverins, a trio in a Super Heavy Detachment gives 3CP, and they're not particularly expensive. To be honest, I think the Armiger Warglaives are probably better for supporting anti-tank, though Helverins seem solid (and cheap) enough to provide a good anchor for mobile Blood Angels units to operate around (Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, etc).

[Arkhanist]

I was just comparing them to dreads myself. A contemptor with kheres is 9 points cheaper; but 5" slower and 2 wounds less. The kheres is 24", 6 shots and only D1, but at BS 2+. On the other hand, the contemptor in combat with hits on 2+, wounds most anything on 2+ (red thirst), does 4A -3AP 3D, plus he gets the 5++ in combat. So less hanging back and shooting, more shooting on his way towards smashing things in the face. Plus he can benefit from character auras, unleash rage etc and can give CP. 

 

Or there's the rifleman dread (index or FW) - same weight of fire on average but at 2D instead of 3 (but as mentioned above, it's more effective against heavy infantry anyway). 4 less W and no invulnerable and much slower. But then it's almost 40 points cheaper and again can benefit from auras as part of a firebase; such as a captain with JP giving his reroll turn 1 then WoFing his way into combat after.

 

In isolation, the helverin is a better shooter - that +1 to hit against flyers swings it for me - but when you synergise with other BA units, it's not such a slam dunk for me.

[Bonzi]

I see the Armiger's as putting a lot of our dreds out to pasture. A dual lascannon CCW dred and a Libby Dred might be exceptions, but for a lot of other rolls Warglaives and Helligers just do it better for a modest points increase. Armiger's have a large mobility advantage, carry more wounds, and have ion Shields. I personally think Armiger's show that dreds are overcosted by 10 to 15 points.

 

I myself plan on using a pair of Warglaives as turn one pressure vs tanks since I can't DS in other melee armor Hunter units until turn 2.

[Panzer]

 

IIt's not terrible and certainly better than a Autocannon Predator but nobody really takes Autocannon Predators anyway so it's not something I'd immediately jump on. ^^

Well, Predator Autocannons are absolutely not to be sniffed at, even without Killshot. With Killshot, Predator Destructors (PAC/Heavy Bolters) are great.

 

That's coming from experience: I've been using three Predator Destructors for many games in 8th now, and they're great. Pretty much all Space Marine vehicles need a little kick in the ass, rules/points wise, but pound for pound Predator Destructors are damn solid.

 

As for the Armiger Helverins, a trio in a Super Heavy Detachment gives 3CP, and they're not particularly expensive. To be honest, I think the Armiger Warglaives are probably better for supporting anti-tank, though Helverins seem solid (and cheap) enough to provide a good anchor for mobile Blood Angels units to operate around (Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, etc).

 

 

Yes but that's mostly thanks to the Stratagem.

 

Also Armiger don't give you any CP. They don't count as the three required Knights for that special detachment.

[Spagunk]

I think I'd advocate at this point for a wholesale 15-25 pt reduction for all dreads (across the board so for everyone) barring perhaps the libby dread since there is no compare on its abilities vs armigers. I'd also say that since this also relegates predators to way over cost, stick a 10-20 pt reduction wholesale on all pred platforms too.

[Kallas]

Yes but that's mostly thanks to the Stratagem.

That might be your opinion but it's not mine:

Well, Predator Autocannons are absolutely not to be sniffed at, even without Killshot. With Killshot, Predator Destructors (PAC/Heavy Bolters) are great.

I've been playing using my Predators almost every game, and without Killshot they are solid performers. With it they are excellent.

 

Also Armiger don't give you any CP. They don't count as the three required Knights for that special detachment.

Ah I see, I haven't read the Codex yet. That's actually incredibly dumb, considering that when the Warglaives came out in the AdMech/Necron box they talked about using them to fill out Super Heavy Detachments.

[Diagramdude]

I would hesitate to commit so many points and rely on S7 and AP -1 for my ranged firepower. You're really gonna struggle vs T8

[Karhedron]

I agree that I think the Warglaive is a better fit for our style than the Helverin. We have plenty of units that can chew through chaff and light vehicles but tank busting requires more thought. Classic anti-tank units Lascannon Devs don't synergise quit so well for us if we want Captain Smash up front wrecking face.

 

Warglaives are fast, tough and reasonably durable and can move up quickly alongside our fast elements to bring their multishot melta weapons to bear. After firing, they can then charge in (their chain glaives now get 2 attack modes).

 

I am not saying Helverins are bad (far from it) but I think Warglaives have more to offer the sons of Sanguinius.

[Charlo]

To confirm a point, Armigers DO give you CP, you just need to take 3 of them in a Super Heavy Detachment, they just don't get any household rules when doing so (which isn't so big).

 

The Flat 3 Damage is absolutely insane on these guys, on a perfect roll that is a possible 36 damage from one model(!)

 

They are certainly putting the pressure on all but the biggest Dreads.

[Lysere]

To confirm a point, Armigers DO give you CP, you just need to take 3 of them in a Super Heavy Detachment, they just don't get any household rules when doing so (which isn't so big).

 

The Flat 3 Damage is absolutely insane on these guys, on a perfect roll that is a possible 36 damage from one model(!)

 

They are certainly putting the pressure on all but the biggest Dreads.

This isn't necessarily true. Legal by RAW maybe but honestly it doesn't feel like it's in the spirit of the rules.

 

The knight lance rule just makes the SHD command benefit nothing unless you have three big knights. (and one becomes a character regardless of which knights you take) Saying you can somehow circumvent this core rule of the army by not taking them as knights somehow doesn't seem intended.

[Charlo]

 

To confirm a point, Armigers DO give you CP, you just need to take 3 of them in a Super Heavy Detachment, they just don't get any household rules when doing so (which isn't so big).

 

The Flat 3 Damage is absolutely insane on these guys, on a perfect roll that is a possible 36 damage from one model(!)

 

They are certainly putting the pressure on all but the biggest Dreads.

This isn't necessarily true. Legal by RAW maybe but honestly it doesn't feel like it's in the spirit of the rules.

 

The knight lance rule just makes the SHD command benefit nothing unless you have three big knights. (and one becomes a character regardless of which knights you take) Saying you can somehow circumvent this core rule of the army by not taking them as knights somehow doesn't seem intended.

 

Ha was just reading your posts in the Ad Mech section and came here to post the same.

 

It's a very weird ruling (especially since the WHC article said about using Armigers to get CP...) but basically means bring a Battalion buddy or two if you want any decent amount of CP.

[Lysere]

I had a chance to flip through the codex a couple days ago so while I can't remember everything in it I want to at least stem the misinformation a bit so people dont get too wrapped up in what a video report said could be done and find out otherwise after they bought a bunch of stuff.

 

Still armigers are cheap enough that I still plan on using them and you can still make a big knight a character with them. With the points drop you can take any big knight of choice and two armigers for a little under 1k. Plenty of room for allies to get you CP.

[Arkhanist]

To confirm a point, Armigers DO give you CP, you just need to take 3 of them in a Super Heavy Detachment, they just don't get any household rules when doing so (which isn't so big).

 

The Flat 3 Damage is absolutely insane on these guys, on a perfect roll that is a possible 36 damage from one model(!)

 

They are certainly putting the pressure on all but the biggest Dreads.

 

The rule in the codex is:

 

"If your army is Battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knights detachment in your army. Each model you selected gains the Character keyword. However, the Command Benefits of each Imperial Knights Super-heavy Detachment is changed to ‘None’ unless it contains any combination of at least three Questoris Class and/or Dominus Class units."

 

There's no 'you may' or otherwise in there. Codexes supercede the index, so once they're out they're the current rules.

 

If it's an 'Imperial Knights' keyword detachment, that rule applies. If you were to take some other faction of LoW in that super-heavy detachment as well so you have to take it as an Imperium detachment - which gets no stratagems, chapter/household rules, relics etc then fine, for now - though it will be broken by the new battle brothers beta rule;

 

"All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortification Network. This has no effect on your Army Faction."

 

If you're saying you're going to take a SHD with 3 armigers, but ignore that they have the 'imperial knights' keyword in common so you can try to still take it as 'imperium' detachment or the like so avoid the codex rule (and keep the 3CP)? Uh, no. The detachment keywords come from the units within it (and they must share at least one common one in matched play). You don't get to just pretend one of them isn't there - the datasheets from the codex have the 'Imperial Knights' faction keyword on it, so a detachment made up of exclusively of units from the knight codex it is an 'imperial knights' detachment.

 

For example, in the 'sons of sanguinius' part of the BA codex, it says this:

"In this section you’ll find rules for Battle-forged armies that include BLOOD ANGELS Detachments – that is, any Detachment which only includes BLOOD ANGELS units."

 

If it's not worded the same in the IK codex, I'll eat my hat.

 

It's that kind of attempted cheese that gets FAQ'd right quick. 

[Lysere]

 

To confirm a point, Armigers DO give you CP, you just need to take 3 of them in a Super Heavy Detachment, they just don't get any household rules when doing so (which isn't so big).

 

The Flat 3 Damage is absolutely insane on these guys, on a perfect roll that is a possible 36 damage from one model(!)

 

They are certainly putting the pressure on all but the biggest Dreads.

 

The rule in the codex is:

 

"“If your army is Battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knights detachment in your army. Each model you selected gains the Character keyword. However, the Command Benefits of each Imperial Knights Super-heavy Detachment is changed to ‘None’ unless it contains any combination of at least three Questoris Class and/or Dominus Class units.”

 

There's no 'you may' or otherwise in there. Codexes supercede the index, so once they're out they're the current rules.

 

If it's an 'Imperial Knights' keyword detachment, that rule applies. If you were to take some other faction of LoW in that super-heavy detachment as well so you have to take it as an Imperium detachment - which gets no stratagems, chapter/household rules, relics etc then fine, for now - though it will be broken by the new battle brothers beta rule;

 

"All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortification Network. This has no effect on your Army Faction."

 

If you're saying you're going to take a SHD with 3 armigers, but ignore that they have the 'imperial knights' keyword in common so you can try to still take it as 'imperium' detachment or the like so avoid the codex rule (and keep the 3CP)? Uh, no. The detachment keywords come from the units within it (and they must share at least one common one in matched play). You don't get to just pretend one of them isn't there - the datasheets from the codex have the 'Imperial Knights' faction keyword on it, so a detachment made up of exclusively of units from the knight codex it is an 'imperial knights' detachment.

 

It's that kind of attempted cheese that gets FAQ'd right quick. 

 

 

Thanks for quoting that rule. I figured it was wrong and even asked in a different thread if someone could confirm that rule. Really does seem to be a case of people reviewing it being too quick to show it off and not getting rules right.

 

Allies it is then for your CP needs for knights. At least that means all your enemies anti infantry weapons will still have some targets.

[Panzer]

I'm honestly not even mad (or even close to it). A whole Knight army looks awesome but seems pretty dull to play more than a few times.

[Aothaine]

I honestly think that Blood Angels are better off not using knights. Knights are really expensive and act as an elite force, so are marines to some extent. If I was going to ally anything with my Blood Angels(Flesh Tearers) it would be Militarum Tempestus for the cheap special weapons suicide squads. 

 

I think the Space Marines have better options than what Knights bring to the table for their specific army. I am not saying Knights are bad. They are really good. But I don't think they mesh well with other expensive armies.

[Panzer]

I honestly think that Blood Angels are better off not using knights. Knights are really expensive and act as an elite force, so are marines to some extent. If I was going to ally anything with my Blood Angels(Flesh Tearers) it would be Militarum Tempestus for the cheap special weapons suicide squads. 

 

I think the Space Marines have better options than what Knights bring to the table for their specific army. I am not saying Knights are bad. They are really good. But I don't think they mesh well with other expensive armies.

 

That's probably true as well. A Knight would have to replace one of our own heavy hitters like a DC/SG unit + support or a Stormraven etc. since it can't replace something like line troops.

That won't stop me from taking one for our semi-competetive games in my group tho. They are cool after all and it's not like I have DC or SG in my Primaris army so the only thing it could replace would be a Repulsor or Redemptor. :D