SyNidus Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Folks, as some of you mat or may not know, i have a Night Lords army that i enjoy playing. But i am also a rather new Chaos player. Generally speaking, i've been handling, harder targets with a combination of 3 oblit squads & 2 Raptor squads with melta/plasmas. I'm a little worried that with the advent of the Imperial Knights codex, i may find myself so outgunned/outclasses that i just won't stand a chance. My question therefore is this: What are our big guns? What are our best ways of dealing with such titanic weapon systems? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemerax Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Short answer "nothing", long answer "not much". We have been suffering GW's wrath since we had a good time during 3rd Edition. The Imperium will always be the prefered Faction to GW and they will get a lot of more shiny toys, then we will ever have and more or less let us rot. Enough rant, we are not totally out of options "yet". Dealing with a Knight and any heavy vehicle I suggest Havovs with 4 Lascannons with Mark of Slaanesh, cast Prescience on them, put a Lord in 6" and make use of the Stratagems Veterans of Long War and Endless Cacaphony. This brings you to 8 Lascannonshots per turn hitting on 2s rerolling 1s and wounding on 2s. Costs 3 CP tho, but has enough Daka to kill a Knight in a turn potentially. Keep your Command Reroll for a wound roll of 1. Thanks to Battalion Detachment giving 5 CP and us having Cultists, you should not run in problems doing this 2-3 times per battle. Personally, since I play Traitor Guard with Emperors Children, my army is accompanied by a Baneblade, which is an equal opponent to a Knight. FW and GW screw our rules even more, so I had to go this way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Short answer "nothing", long answer "not much". We have been suffering GW's wrath since we had a good time during 3rd Edition. The Imperium will always be the prefered Faction to GW and they will get a lot of more shiny toys, then we will ever have and more or less let us rot. Enough rant, we are not totally out of options "yet". Dealing with a Knight and any heavy vehicle I suggest Havovs with 4 Lascannons with Mark of Slaanesh, cast Prescience on them, put a Lord in 6" and make use of the Stratagems Veterans of Long War and Endless Cacaphony. This brings you to 8 Lascannonshots per turn hitting on 2s rerolling 1s and wounding on 2s. Costs 3 CP tho, but has enough Daka to kill a Knight in a turn potentially. Keep your Command Reroll for a wound roll of 1. Thanks to Battalion Detachment giving 5 CP and us having Cultists, you should not run in problems doing this 2-3 times per battle. Personally, since I play Traitor Guard with Emperors Children, my army is accompanied by a Baneblade, which is an equal opponent to a Knight. FW and GW screw our rules even more, so I had to go this way. Eh that's really too much whining to be honest. Loyalist Space Marines aren't in a much better position. Actually in a worse compared to CSM. Also a single Lascannon Havoc unit fully buffed with VotLW, Endless Cacophony and Prescience won't kill a Knight per turn. That's "only" about 13 damage which is slightly above half their wounds. Luckily you can take multiples of that unit for the price of a single Knight so you have some redundancy and can do the same thing next turn again and with Cultists CSM have it really easy to get their hands on lots of CP compared to loyalist Marines. CSM also have Daemon Princes which can do quite a bit of damage. A Slaanesh one with Axe and Elixir does about 6.5 damage (of course it can't solo a Knight but that's okay since you have other units to soften the Knight beforehand and the DP is MUCH cheaper than a Knight anyway). Berzerker with their amount of S5 attacks should be able to put a dent into a Knight too. Then there are Obliterators and Plasma Terminators. CSM may not have a unit to solo a Knight but that's GOOD. A Knight shouldn't get solo'ed just like that. It's a LoW and costs several hundreds of points. Target it with multiple units and some support and it should go reasonably quickly down still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gederas Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 CSM may not have a unit to solo a Knight but that's GOOD. A Knight shouldn't get solo'ed just like that. It's a LoW and costs several hundreds of points. Target it with multiple units and some support and it should go reasonably quickly down still. I mean, Chaos Marines can't one-turn a Knight. But other factions can. -glares at the Necrons- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 I didn't say we can't one-turn a Knight. I said we can't solo a Knight. Means using only one unit to down a Knight. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Mortarion or Magnus with full psychic buffs would take out an imperial knight. One of our knights with full psychic buffs could take out an imperial knight. Allied Renegade Shadowsword could snipe a knight. So what I am saying is... pray for first turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazSexington Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 We absolutely can deal with Knights. Oblits should be fine. If not, Triple DiscoPredator with Killshot (wounds knights on 2+) tends to do the trick. Prescience on one and a Chaos Lord for re-rolls, and you're at least 3+ to hit, re-rolling ones, wounding on 2+, and doing D6+1 damage, with the others at 4+, re-rolling 1s. This is presuming you've hidden them and move them out to shoot at the big, nasty kniiiiiiiiiiiiiggets. Combine that with Death Hex from a Sorcerer, either on bike or deep striking, and you're good. ] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Clock Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Forgeworld: A Leviathan will eat most Knights for breakfast if it can close the distance. In my group the Leviathan is known as the 'pocket knight' because it's quite comparable. Basic Knight-hunting role for my WE is Leviathan with Grav/Drill, and 2 Maulerfiends. The Leviathan could just about one-shot a Paladin chassis Knight in a turn if things go perfectly, with the grav doing up to 15, the melta 6, the flamers up to 24, and the claw up to 16 damage. Even if you get 1/2 the potential of the heavy guns and a charge off, you'd be looking at putting 17-18 wounds on a Knight in a turn. There's a pretty big swing because of the D3 shots on the grav and the 2d6 hellflamers, but... yeah, for 350 points a Leviathan is great value for anti-armour. If you want to put down Knights at range, then again, I'd advise Forgeworld units even if you convert your own. A lucky shot from a 100-point Rapier can seriously change a Knight's disposition... and you can MSU them nicely if you need to complicate enemy fire priority. Cheers, The Good Doctor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Easy. Just spam lascannon units, because they are the most reliable anti-vehicle weaponary that chaos possesses. Forget deamon princes, melta guns, plasma guns (except if you're guardsmen and maybe asstartes) primarchs etc. The more cost effective and efficient way to bring down high valued targets are lascannons units for chaos. Nothing else comes close. Oblitorators don't count as they're unreliable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maschinenpriester Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 I have been encountering an army consistiong of knights only in a friendly match. Ive been using mainly sonic weaponry. 2 Sonic dreads 2 close combat dreads and lots of noise marines. And some Plasma-nators. I found that you can ignore knights once they have degraded the second time. Maybe this was not the most represantative game though. But i had the feeling that the knights where pretty overpriced for what they where doing. As long as you have enough dudes you don't need to worry. Of cours lascannons do the trick well- like balstmasters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Blast masters cost too much to get and their damage and ap is inferior to a lascannon, as each blast master costs 100 pts (5 marines and 1 blast master) and is limited to 2 per squad and you can only get 6 max in a 2k game. Sure, they get D3 shots, but still not worth it as each lascannon on a predator costs 47.5 points and each lascannon in a havoc squad costs 33 pts. (points were determined by calculating the cost of 5 men plus 4 lascannons and then dividing by five, not 4 guys with lascannons, because you need to buy 5 marines to get the havoc squad, not 4 minimum). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Blastmaster don't cost 100p. You don't take the unit just for the Blastmaster. You take the unit because Sonic Blaster are good and because they're Troop in an EC army. So mentioning the Blastmaster is fair point.It's not a “I need something against Knights ... lets take some Noise Marines“, it's a “I have some Noise Marines and their Blastmaster even works against Knights“. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gederas Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 and you can only get 6 max in a 2k game.Not to be pedantic, but if you read Maschinenpriester's post, they mentioned Sonic dreads, which means Emperor's Children. Which means a lot more than 6 Blastmasters, as Noise Marines are troops for Emperor's Children. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Nurglings. Seriously, the Knights can't walk out of combat since they're a swarm. Use Nurglings and then get Daemon Princes / Terminators / Primarchs into combat with them and cut them down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5097939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Nurglings. Seriously, the Knights can't walk out of combat since they're a swarm. Use Nurglings and then get Daemon Princes / Terminators / Primarchs into combat with them and cut them down.Rules patched. In the IK codex the text is "...infantry and swarm units". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Heck. Yeah, I got nothing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Spread the points out in your army so there aren’t any units that cost more than they’re worth. For World Eaters, multiple units of Berzerkers, and so on. With enough firepower, I guess they really can all be killed, but in most of my games only 1 Rhino will have a real chance of being killed before the Berzerkers jump out. Always power fists and Chainaxes + chainswords. Veterans of the Long War stratagem. The leviathan is nice, but quite pricy. Still, alongside other fast threats it could either eat a bit of shooting or survive to shoot and hopefully do something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Blastmaster don't cost 100p. You don't take the unit just for the Blastmaster. You take the unit because Sonic Blaster are good and because they're Troop in an EC army. So mentioning the Blastmaster is fair point. It's not a “I need something against Knights ... lets take some Noise Marines“, it's a “I have some Noise Marines and their Blastmaster even works against Knights“. Yes they do, because to get a blast master you have to spend x points before you can invest in them and in this scenario we are talking about how to specifically deal with imperial knights. So, in fact we are just talking about getting the unit just for the blastmaster just for them. As that's what my answer was referring to. I just reread the FAQ and you're right about the noise marines being troops for an EC army, but my point still stands. They are no where near the most effective choice for anti-tanks and regardless of what legion you take. When you consider we have havocs and predators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Blastmaster don't cost 100p. You don't take the unit just for the Blastmaster. You take the unit because Sonic Blaster are good and because they're Troop in an EC army. So mentioning the Blastmaster is fair point. It's not a “I need something against Knights ... lets take some Noise Marines“, it's a “I have some Noise Marines and their Blastmaster even works against Knights“. Yes they do, because to get a blast master you have to spend x points before you can invest in them and in this scenario we are talking about how to specifically deal with imperial knights. So, in fact we are just talking about getting the unit just for the blastmaster just for them. As that's what my answer was referring to. I just reread the FAQ and you're right about the noise marines being troops for an EC army, but my point still stands. They are no where near the most effective choice for anti-tanks and regardless of what legion you take. When you consider we have havocs and predators. I explained why that way of thinking is wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Well if you are list tailoring then these other methods will work certainly. That is the tricky place that knights are in... Him: "I'm playing knights" You: "Ok let me get my list" Him: "What? Your list has all lascannons and anti vehicle???" You: "What did you expect me to bring? Guys with bolters??" Mono codex knights is obviously vulnerable to anti vehicle and punishes lists not prepared for it (like in a pick up game). Once you build to face it then it won't seem so bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Well if you are list tailoring then these other methods will work certainly. That is the tricky place that knights are in... Him: "I'm playing knights" You: "Ok let me get my list" Him: "What? Your list has all lascannons and anti vehicle???" You: "What did you expect me to bring? Guys with bolters??" Mono codex knights is obviously vulnerable to anti vehicle and punishes lists not prepared for it (like in a pick up game). Once you build to face it then it won't seem so bad. Basically the situation flyer used to be in during 7th and the situation any vehicle heavy list is still in. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Forgeworld: A Leviathan will eat most Knights for breakfast if it can close the distance. In my group the Leviathan is known as the 'pocket knight' because it's quite comparable. Basic Knight-hunting role for my WE is Leviathan with Grav/Drill, and 2 Maulerfiends. The Leviathan could just about one-shot a Paladin chassis Knight in a turn if things go perfectly, with the grav doing up to 15, the melta 6, the flamers up to 24, and the claw up to 16 damage. Even if you get 1/2 the potential of the heavy guns and a charge off, you'd be looking at putting 17-18 wounds on a Knight in a turn. There's a pretty big swing because of the D3 shots on the grav and the 2d6 hellflamers, but... yeah, for 350 points a Leviathan is great value for anti-armour. If you want to put down Knights at range, then again, I'd advise Forgeworld units even if you convert your own. A lucky shot from a 100-point Rapier can seriously change a Knight's disposition... and you can MSU them nicely if you need to complicate enemy fire priority. Cheers, The Good Doctor. There's also a Dual Soulburner/Dual Chainclaw Contemptor build that can solo a Questoris Knight in a single round if everything hits and wounds in both shooting and CC, but you really just have to be able to finish after the lascannons or Soulburner Decimators have had their fun. The Contemptor is easy to convert from the GW plastic one, so it might be a better alternative than the Leviathan between that and the lower point cost (just shy of 230 I think). The Levi is a beast, but not everybody's ready to commit to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 You: "What did you expect me to bring? Guys with bolters??" Don't knock bolters. They are really good in this edition. If I was building a chaos list and wanted to be competitive I would play the mission. Stop trying to kill them. Just degrade them and move on to the next one, focus on objectives. Make sure you have swift and tough units to do that as well. Chaos Bikers are perfect for this. They can unleash a torrent of bolter fire, have 2 wounds each at T5 with a 3+ save. Do something like this... Iron Warriors [HQ] Chaos Lord (Iron Warriors Warlord Trait)(Nurgle) [HQ] Chaos Sorcerer(Nurgle) (Always buff your Chaos Lord) [HQ] Chaos Sorcerer(Whatever you want) [T] Cultists (40-man) x3 (Spread these guys out over the entire board and make sure to conga line them back to the Chaos Lord for the auto-pass morale) [FA] Chaos Bikers (9-man) x2 [HS] Obliterator Squad x3 Pretty sure we're running out of points here. But this list should have so much on the table that you're opponent won't really be able to do much about it. The lynch-pin is the Chaos Lord. If he dies the auto-pass morale fails and the army starts to fall apart. So.. I dunno. Anyway.. you can assault knights easily with the cultists as they will never fail morale. Then you can cp to bring one squad back and grab an objective. You need to remember that pure knight armies are playing against a clock. If they cannot kill enough of your army to prevent you from holding objectives and collecting points off of those units you will just pull ahead. GW is moving away from the lists that can push their way through all opponents. This is good. They want the playerbase to play what they enjoy and just have a good time playing the game. ^_^ There have been a bunch of suggestions in this thread already that are spot on. But when it comes down to it I just say play what you want. Don't worry about winning so much. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felstone Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 We absolutely can deal with Knights. Oblits should be fine. Flesh metal guns might be as good in 8th, but they still pack a punch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkApostle7 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 use a traitor knight? Fire with fire Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347864-how-to-deal-with-imperial-knights-and-other-craziness/#findComment-5098944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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