Crusader Loadouts

[Mushkilla]

So how do people run their crusaders?Thermal cannon Vs rapid fire battle cannon. What carapace weapon?

 

Currently I'm thinking Raven with thermal cannon. It just seems like a very flexible loadout.

 

Finally, do you think the buff to the gallant make the warden/errant less interesting options, as they are awkward half way house between the gallant and the crusader?

[General Strike]

I use the RFBC, it is just a more balanced weapon, even though it is pricy. I do think the Gallant is much more attractive now, being cheaper, and gaining buffs.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I got one with RFBC and a stormspear rocket. Maximum long range shooting was the idea. Prohibitively expensive though. Feel a bit cheated the RFBC didn't drop in points. Or was buffed. Still glad he's going to be cheaper to field regardless.

 

I wouldn't even have considered a gallant earlier, now i'm mighty tempted. EWP's will still be usefull, since they can multitask, but the usefullness of specialized knights does make them shine a bit brighter

[Mushkilla]

Right. I guess my thinking went like this:

 

Knights need to fight in assault to maximize their effectiveness. Especially with heroic intervention you can potentially fight even more. Knights also need to try and play the objective game. So hanging back is probably better suited to helvrins who aren't wasting their combat potential hanging back.

 

To play this aggressive objective storming style, I'm going to run a gallant. Hmmm... But it does trap me into a bit of a one trick pony set up, I mean there are some things a gallant won't want to fight what do I do then? Ok I'll run a warden then, it gives me flexibility. I'll probably run the reaper as its +6 S now so wounds T7 on 2s, the gauntlet is nice with death grip, but unreliable 50% of wasting that CP (hitting on 4s). I need to be realistic with my CP usage. Titanic feet most of he time will still be really good. So why not run a crusader?

 

So I guess my question is, does the crusader even work in this roll as a close assault unit?

 

Edit: I also considered the valiant for this role, but the increased cost of rotate ion shields to 3CP, the slower speed and WS4 concerned me.

[chapter master 454]

The main thing about knights is that Titanic feet works against pretty much everything bar the heavy duty stuff. The fact knights have this option does mean Crusaders should walk up the board and charge, they take no penalties from it and due to their relentless rule can always fall back next turn anyway to keep firing. The question really is what is both guns good at?

 

The Thermal Cannon is the anti-big stuff weapon. With high strength and high AP, it can punch holes clean through most tanks and heavies that don't bring invulnerables (...I hate riptides and their 3++). It does lack range but once within 18" it now has the melta rule kick in and do note that melta weapons will mode and median towards 5 damage meaning any shot that gets through is very likely to cause some serious damage.

 

The battle cannon however is the weapon that allows the knight to now only engage at range but engage pretty much anything that isn't a horde of ork boys (and even then at that range a few rounds of that may do some serious work). Having had one of my RFBC high roll so hard it took out a riptide in one volley, these things can be devastating to a lot of targets. While it does lack the AP, the strength is still boxing with the thermal pretty well so against any target with invulnerables the RFBC can actually get through those pesky safes by quantity of shots instead of quality.

 

Really, the range of both weapons are non-factors in standard games (non-apoc) as knights having a 12" move enhances both weapons effective reach to well above the requirements of any board and to be honest don't be scared of getting in there. Crusaders may not have a "melee" weapon to back them up but those weapons are sized for equal or greater opponents, not suited to the normal targets they will have to deal with. Keep it simple and run Crusaders unless you want to run some Gallants, otherwise you will find one of your hard points will be largely doing nothing (because why are you using the chainsword/gauntlet on infantry?). They can hit hard but if you want a melee knight, get the gallant and run him up board.

 

I say this as coming from space marines I feel having the "balanced" approach doesn't work. Thankfully, knights already kick rear in combat anyway with their feet (get it...ha....) so no need to spend points on a weapon that does nothing most times.

[mertbl]

I run mine with the battle cannon and stormsprear pod. The extra AP of the thermal cannon never appealed to me as most big things have invuls anyways.

 

I plan on taking the relic gatling cannon everytime.

[Lysere]

I've always preferred running mine with the Thermal cannon. Partly because of the cost, partly because the Stomps have the same stats as the cannon except no random number of attacks. Combine that with the melta rule and you can reliably take chunks out of anything, especially if you get a good roll for the shots.

 

The battle cannon just doesn't do anything that other things I usually run couldn't do better but if I do a pure knight list I might actually take one if I have the points to spare.

[sneakybamsen]

I tried the RFBC a good while ago, when 8th was still new, and I loved it. It is expensive, but it can really do work. Haven't tried the thermal cannon, but do see uses with it. That said, my current plan is 2 gallants, a warden, castigator and 2 helverines (2 detachments, 1 for 3CP extra). Points aren't permitting a crusader, even though I'd love to use that instead of the warden. At some point I might try, for slightly more casual gaming, to bring the crusader instead of the warden at the cost of a helverine. Means I lose 3 CP, but it could be OK on a non-competitive level.

[Stray]

You never quite know what you're going to get with the RFBC. On average, you're generally better off with Avenger and Thermal, but even then there's a lot of 'what if's'. I'm fairly surprised the RFBC didn't get a points drop actually. It's our least dependable weapon, and now (I think), the most expensive on a standard Knight.

 

'Tis them damn 2D6 shots. You'll either get glorious death, or a peashooter. And you simply can't tell in advance.

 

As a rule of thumb, even with a Crusader, shoot and fight every turn if it's safe and viable to do so. Every one of our models is expensive, and we have few of them. So this is how we have to act to make the most of them.

[Mushkilla]

So people prefer the battle cannon. Interesting. Personally, I felt it was overcosted but it is a more flexible weapon. I guess when going battle cannon people double up on the heavy stubber?

 

I'm also quite surprised with the popularity of the stormspear. I though people would prefer the ironstorm because it's cheap and ignore line of sight (I feel one of our weaknesses has always been chasing infantry around ruins that they can just walk through and we can't).

 

I guess going stormspear makes sense with the battle cannon as it gives your more S8 dakka.

 

So a crusader with battle cannon, avenger, 2*stubber, flamer, storm spear comes to 530pts. At that price do people feel it's still better than a dominus class knight?

[sneakybamsen]

The stormspear is 3 krak missiles for only 45 points. A terminator or land speeder pays 50 for two, though they can be fired as frag missiles instead. To me the stormspear is sort of a bargain. I never shoot frag missiles, or barely ever at least. Krak missiles are not as good as las cannons, but 3 for 45 points...

 

That aside, with an all-knight list, you're quite likely to be able to handle big things in melee, at least that's where I'll end up, so the stormspear might have diminished value. Getting ironstorm might be the go-to pick now, especially as one of our weaker sides will be horde killing. Yeah, you get 12 shots from avengers, but how many are you realisticly going to field with a demand for enough big knights to make the Lance work?

[Stray]

So people prefer the battle cannon. Interesting. Personally, I felt it was overcosted but it is a more flexible weapon. I guess when going battle cannon people double up on the heavy stubber?

 

I'm also quite surprised with the popularity of the stormspear. I though people would prefer the ironstorm because it's cheap and ignore line of sight (I feel one of our weaknesses has always been chasing infantry around ruins that they can just walk through and we can't).

 

I guess going stormspear makes sense with the battle cannon as it gives your more S8 dakka.

 

So a crusader with battle cannon, avenger, 2*stubber, flamer, storm spear comes to 530pts. At that price do people feel it's still better than a dominus class knight?

 

No. In fact, I'm going to be contraversial

 

Due to the costs involved, I don't think I'd field a non-renegade Crusader at all any more.

 

Why? Because the RFBC and Thermal lance just don't seem all that worth it now when you look at the other options. Our Melee options have really improved, and as you state, once you've paid 530 points why not pay just a little extra and bring a Dominus if you want ranged Firepower? They have their problems imo, but loadup on shoulder cannons and you'll massively out-shoot any Crusader.

 

The Avenger is the Crusaders magnum opus. But with the changes, I'd rather take a Warden with gauntlet (that sweet sweet gauntlet strat) and pay, FAR, far fewer points. I really do think the Crusader has had it's day - it just hasn't benefited from the codex at the same level as other Knights.

[Marshal Reinhard]

The storm spear, while more expensive, is still like adding 3 space marine missile launchers (that only fires krak missiles) onto a very sturdy platform, for cheaper than they would be. The ironstorm IS cheap though, with very good range and the mentioned indirect targeting. But it's essentially a d6 hits heavy bolter. I would have preffered it if it was 2d3 or something similiar. I can see the appeal of both though.

 

As for the price, yeah, it is quite pricey. Been a while since i tallied the points, but is that 530 going by the new codex points values? It does beg the question if not putting in another 70 points or so to get a dominus.

[LucidNinja]

Isn't crusader with stormspear and thermal 502 points, 100 less than the ideal load out for Castellan. Depending on target the crusader can out performan the Castellan also.

[Stray]

Isn't crusader with stormspear and thermal 502 points, 100 less than the ideal load out for Castellan. Depending on target the crusader can out performan the Castellan also.

 

I'd argue the second point. It doesn't really do so reliably. For it to outperform a Castellan you'd be looking at a better than average roll on the RFBC (things actually look worse for it if you take a Thermal instead). Though admittedly the performance is scarily similar against most things. Near identical in fact against many targets.

 

But then, I wouldn't take a Castellan either!

[PiñaColada]

Yeah, 500 points for that setup of a crusader is pretty good. Make one of the weapons a relic gun if possible (think the main guns are locked behind specific houses, but the rocket pod is a decent relic I suppose). Combine that with the fact that rotate ion shields is cheap on the crusader and it has a 3+ WS it's a solid unit.

[Stray]

Yeah, 500 points for that setup of a crusader is pretty good. Make one of the weapons a relic gun if possible (think the main guns are locked behind specific houses, but the rocket pod is a decent relic I suppose). Combine that with the fact that rotate ion shields is cheap on the crusader and it has a 3+ WS it's a solid unit.

 

It's not terrible. I just think you could make better use of the points than picking up the lack luster (and this is just my opinion folks - it doesn't make it a fact) Thermal Cannon or RFBC these days :/

[PiñaColada]

 

Yeah, 500 points for that setup of a crusader is pretty good. Make one of the weapons a relic gun if possible (think the main guns are locked behind specific houses, but the rocket pod is a decent relic I suppose). Combine that with the fact that rotate ion shields is cheap on the crusader and it has a 3+ WS it's a solid unit.

 

It's not terrible. I just think you could make better use of the points than picking up the lack luster (and this is just my opinion folks - it doesn't make it a fact) Thermal Cannon or RFBC these days :/

 

I mean, I sort of agree with you. The crusader doesn't tempt me personally since I'm getting a Castellan (not that I think the Castellan is anywhere as good as the Valiant, just like it better). Close combat weapons aren't terrible for knights anymore with relics, traits and stratagems so taking those knights suddenly seems viable. It's just such a shame they didn't drop the RFBC 20 points and the TC 10-15 points.

[LucidNinja]

So I mathed out the crusader vs the Castellan, both with best (imo) relics. Super gat and cawl plasma. Crusader gat+thermo+stormspear is better against infantry. I know not ideal targets but crusader seems more of a multi tool and less points.

[Mushkilla]

Isn't crusader with stormspear and thermal 502 points, 100 less than the ideal load out for Castellan. Depending on target the crusader can out performan the Castellan also.

285+100+75+17+4+4+45 = 530 I was talking about the battle cannon. You are right though the crusader with thermal is 502, I'd probably add the metal to it though, which makes it 515.

 

But yeah that's why the thermal cannon appeals to me it's cheaper only 41 more points than the gauntlet, and gives you an option against things you don't want to fight in close combat. The gauntlet is a liability when it's hitting on 4s (so outside gallant).

 

My issue with the valiant is it's slow, and most of its firepower requires you to be in 12-18" range, whilst at the same time being worse in melee than a crusader and more vulnerable as you are not going to be able to afford to spend 3CP on rotate ion shields.

[Stray]

 

 

Yeah, 500 points for that setup of a crusader is pretty good. Make one of the weapons a relic gun if possible (think the main guns are locked behind specific houses, but the rocket pod is a decent relic I suppose). Combine that with the fact that rotate ion shields is cheap on the crusader and it has a 3+ WS it's a solid unit.

 

It's not terrible. I just think you could make better use of the points than picking up the lack luster (and this is just my opinion folks - it doesn't make it a fact) Thermal Cannon or RFBC these days :/

 

I mean, I sort of agree with you. The crusader doesn't tempt me personally since I'm getting a Castellan (not that I think the Castellan is anywhere as good as the Valiant, just like it better). Close combat weapons aren't terrible for knights anymore with relics, traits and stratagems so taking those knights suddenly seems viable. It's just such a shame they didn't drop the RFBC 20 points and the TC 10-15 points.

 

 

Yep, this is my main complaint. If any weapon needed a points decrease, it was the RFBC... and yet it's now our most expensive option O.o

 

I think we're at the point where the players often understand how things work in practice better than the writers seem to, which is a little worrying :/

[Lysere]

The main reason I prefer the thermal is its the same range as the gatling, and with the buff to d6 shots always it feels better than the RFBC. Magnets of course mean I can swap weapons around freely but if I had to take the RFBC I'd almost rather have it on a paladin so he can fire across the table at one unit while charging another.

 

Also I'm personally planning on putting the relic gatling and the hawkshroud warlord trait on my crusader for the first couple of games.

 

Melee has definitely improved and all the strats they added specifically for melee means you'll want models that can actually use them. Chainsword sweep against hordes and deathgrip against single models.

[chapter master 454]

People are talking about the thermal cannon as if it got a massive change? Isn't it still just D3 shots against normal targets?

 

The RFBC while expensive can knock a lot of targets down. While horde may be talked about a lot, a dakka knight with a RFBC, Avenger and Ironstorm would be quite a horde shredder even without relics and from there those weapons still hit fairly hard (note that Ironstorms deal 2 damage. That's kinda nuts) and this is useful against a lot of different armies, including the primaris marines who hide behind the fact they have 2 wounds, slam them with that set-up and I wager you could easily chew through a couple of squads of intercessors and hellblasters in a moments notice.

 

As it stands, I am certainly not a fan of the thermal cannon while I love the RFBC as so far, everytime I deploy my two crusaders the RFBC always does more work. That being said the points reductions in the 'dex do mean the thermal has a lower roof to hit while the RFBC always was able to feel worth it's points.

Also...the RFBC comes with another heavy stubber which while minimal is nice to have extra small arms fire to help thin out weeny squads.

[PiñaColada]

The thermal cannon is d6 shots - and it has been since the admech codex came out.

[Lysere]

The thermal cannon is d6 shots - and it has been since the admech codex came out.

 

This! The change with the admech book to D6 shots always was a massive buff when combined with the strength and damage. Before then I didn't even want to run a crusader because the Thermal and RFBC were both lack luster when I could just take a chainsword for carving up armor and Gatling cannon everything else. 

 

I ran an Errant at the LVO because I wanted some more melee with my list and the Thermal cannon did pretty well, great weapon for the command re-roll. Of course if you're going to take a Castellan in the list the Thermal cannon's role is pretty much handled and the RFBC is somewhat better than the plasma cannon so plenty of reason to take it if you have the points.