The Paragon Gauntlet + Which House?

[Prot]

Ever since the Gauntlet Knights came out with the Crusader box I always wanted to smash something, then throw said thing into another thing. I don't think 40K gets any better than that.

 

I know there are more powerful Relics, but the Paragon Gauntlet lets me throw things into other things!

 

I am not entirely familiar with all traits/House rules, etc, but *IF* this was your relic of choice, which house does it match up best with? 

 

Also I'd ask that you pick your favourite from each loyalty. IE: one from Mechanicus and one from Imperium.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Doesn't the standard gauntlet do that too?

[PiñaColada]

The questor imperialis side certainly seems stronger for CC in my mind. The best unit to pit the paragon gauntlet on has to be the gallant, great WS and an extra attack for a cheap cost. Use the exalted court stratagem to give one a warlord trait, probably knight seneschal, for an extra attack. Also the gallant is cheap and if you don't add extra weapons then advancing turn 1 won't really be a big deal since you only lose out on heavy stubber shots.

 

With that setup, any imperialis house except for Mortan is going to be a great fit.

 

On the mecannichus side it mig be a bit tougher to find a truly suitable one. House raven could be nice so you can add a carapace weapon and still advance and fire it at no penalty. I'd say that one or house Taranis for some extra durability and Taranis also get "The darkest hour" stratagem which could be insanely good combined with "machine spirit resurgent".

 

The paragon gauntlet doesn't give a penalty to hit, combined with the 2+ WS of the gallant makes the "death grip" stratagem super scary. That stratagem also activates after you've attacked. So throw those 6 gauntlet or 18 stomps into one unit and then squeeze their warlord to death.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Use the exalted court stratagem to give one a warlord trait, probably knight seneschal, for an extra attack.

A Knight Gallant from House Griffith with that Warlord Trait will throw out 7 attacks on the charge, hitting and wounding on 2+ with the gauntlet.

 

I think I'd rather have the +2 to Advance and Charge bubble trait, though, to help ensure that you actually get to the target.  6A is better than 0A because you were an inch short.   Speaking of that, Terryn would be a good choice to help get there faster/more reliably, and I'm a fan of Hawkshroud to help keep your Knight operating at optimum power for longer.

[PiñaColada]

Yeah, as I said, I think most of the imperialis traits are really useful for a gallant. More attacks/better durability/faster speed is all going to come down to user preference and possibly what trait is better for the other knights in the detachment if at all applicable.

[Stray]

Remember, mathmatically Krast will put in more work (and give more average damage) than Griffiths extra attack.

 

If you run the exalted court strat, you'll get the HI ability baked in also, AND you'll have access to Machine Spirit resurgent for ignoring profile degradation thanks to it being a Mechanicus House.

 

On the Imperial side, Mortan is probably the strongest trait in terms of average output in melee. Griffiths will have the highest possible damage, but it will rely on luck and the best possible rolls. You won't see than on an average turn.

[Mushkilla]

Mortan's +1 is still useful on the gallant, as it either means you degrade more gracefully (still hit on 2s on your second line) or means you don't have to take the relic.

 

The only thing to remember with Krast is how re-rolls interact with negative modifiers. For example a krast gallant with a regular gauntlet would only be able to re-roll 1s to hit when attacking with the gauntlet.

[Stray]

Mortan's +1 is still useful on the gallant, as it either means you degrade more gracefully (still hit on 2s on your second line) or means you don't have to take the relic.

 

The only thing to remember with Krast is how re-rolls interact with negative modifiers. For example a krast gallant with a regular gauntlet would only be able to re-roll 1s to hit when attacking with the gauntlet.

 

I don't think we get a -1 when using the Paragon Gauntlet though do we buddy? Unless I'm confusing it with Hekhtors love glove... O.o

[sneakybamsen]

 

Mortan's +1 is still useful on the gallant, as it either means you degrade more gracefully (still hit on 2s on your second line) or means you don't have to take the relic.

 

The only thing to remember with Krast is how re-rolls interact with negative modifiers. For example a krast gallant with a regular gauntlet would only be able to re-roll 1s to hit when attacking with the gauntlet.

 

I don't think we get a -1 when using the Paragon Gauntlet though do we buddy? Unless I'm confusing it with Hekhtors love glove... O.o

 

Paragon gauntlet has no -1, but Mushkilla was talking about the regular gauntlet which does. If non-relic gauntlets are used, Krast is really not that much better than Griffith

[PiñaColada]

Isn't Krast just against titanic units? Or am I making that up? You have a decent case for Mortan Mushkilla, but even so Hawkshroud still seems better to me.

[Stray]

Isn't Krast just against titanic units? Or am I making that up? You have a decent case for Mortan Mushkilla, but even so Hawkshroud still seems better to me.

 

Nope, Krast works when charging, charged, or performing an HI too.

 

Hawkshroud is good, but if you have the CP, Machine Spirit Resurgent is arguably more impactful when you need it.

[Stray]

 

 

Mortan's +1 is still useful on the gallant, as it either means you degrade more gracefully (still hit on 2s on your second line) or means you don't have to take the relic.

 

The only thing to remember with Krast is how re-rolls interact with negative modifiers. For example a krast gallant with a regular gauntlet would only be able to re-roll 1s to hit when attacking with the gauntlet.

 

I don't think we get a -1 when using the Paragon Gauntlet though do we buddy? Unless I'm confusing it with Hekhtors love glove... O.o

 

Paragon gauntlet has no -1, but Mushkilla was talking about the regular gauntlet which does. If non-relic gauntlets are used, Krast is really not that much better than Griffith

 

 

Ah, fair enough. Prots OP specifically asks which House the Paragon Gauntlet works best with you see?

 

I thought that about Griffith too, but the maths doesn't bear it out. You certainly CAN get more potential damage with Griffith, but Krast is noticeably better on average, regardless of weapon. I was surprised by that, but it's definitely the case. Knowing that the HI is generally irrelevant too and losing Machine Spirit Resurgent drives the last nail in the coffin for me as regards Griffiths.

 

Headsmans Mark is a really good relic which is Krast specific too. Consistent extra damage on every attack is just so good.

 

 

Running the numbers on a standard Gauntlet Krast vs Griff bonuses, both get -1 to hit, Krast re rolls all, Griff gets the extra attack. Target is a Land Raider.

 

Krast does 12 wounds on average, Griff does 3.5 in this scenario. (You can call it 6, as we're doing flat damage. 3.5 factors in the likelyhood of misses, failed wounds etc) This remains the case even if you factor in a Gallants WS 2. The numbers are identical.

 

Shocking just how big the difference is isn't it? 

 

Obviously these are averages, if you roll well, Griff can do better, but it won't do so reliably. And it gets worse and worse for Griff as it takes damage. If you pay the CP, Krast can perform at this level all game.

 

Edit: Griff can win out in the averages game with the Paragon AND WS 2. That puts you up to about 17 damage (averages). But again, only while in perfect health.

[Mushkilla]

Running the numbers on a standard Gauntlet Krast vs Griff bonuses, both get -1 to hit, Krast re rolls all, Griff gets the extra attack. Target is a Land Raider.

 

Krast does 12 wounds on average, Griff does 3.5 in this scenario. (You can call it 6, as we're doing flat damage. 3.5 factors in the likelyhood of misses, failed wounds etc) This remains the case even if you factor in a Gallants WS 2. The numbers are identical.

 

Shocking just how big the difference is isn't it? 

 

Obviously these are averages, if you roll well, Griff can do better, but it won't do so reliably. And it gets worse and worse for Griff as it takes damage. If you pay the CP, Krast can perform at this level all game.

 

Edit: Griff can win out in the averages game with the Paragon AND WS 2. That puts you up to about 17 damage (averages). But again, only while in perfect health.

Krast only gets to re-roll failed hits. Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. This effectively means you don't get to re-roll 2s. As they are successful hits until modifiers are applied, you cannot re-roll them because they are not failed hits.

 

To simplify the maths as the weapon profiles are the same I'm going to just work out the number of hits.

 

Griff: 6 attacks hitting on 3s = 4 hits

Krast: 5 attacks hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s = 3.88 hits

 

Hope that helps.

[Stray]

 

Running the numbers on a standard Gauntlet Krast vs Griff bonuses, both get -1 to hit, Krast re rolls all, Griff gets the extra attack. Target is a Land Raider.

 

Krast does 12 wounds on average, Griff does 3.5 in this scenario. (You can call it 6, as we're doing flat damage. 3.5 factors in the likelyhood of misses, failed wounds etc) This remains the case even if you factor in a Gallants WS 2. The numbers are identical.

 

Shocking just how big the difference is isn't it? 

 

Obviously these are averages, if you roll well, Griff can do better, but it won't do so reliably. And it gets worse and worse for Griff as it takes damage. If you pay the CP, Krast can perform at this level all game.

 

Edit: Griff can win out in the averages game with the Paragon AND WS 2. That puts you up to about 17 damage (averages). But again, only while in perfect health.

Krast only gets to re-roll failed hits. Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. This effectively means you don't get to re-roll 2s. As they are successful hits until modifiers are applied, you cannot re-roll them because they are not failed hits.

 

To simplify the maths as the weapon profiles are the same I'm going to just work out the number of hits.

 

Griff: 6 attacks hitting on 3s = 4 hits

Krast: 5 attacks hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s = 3.88 hits

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Interesting...

 

I can factor that in by saying Krast only get re-roll ones. It makes no difference to the numbers. It's still 11.5 wounds to 3.4 Krast vs Griff. And this is only when talking about a single, specific weapon in fairness... Otherwise it just looks worse :/

 

That... or there is a very very widely used 40K calculator with a serious flaw... We might need to look into this Mushy old boy!

 

(Edit: I've mailed the Calcs designer and asked him to confirm how he's handling re-rolls when modifiers are in play. You may have found a defect Mushy... )

 

In either case, Mortan beats out both. You re-roll failed hits AND add +1 negating the negative modifier. As long as you can keep your Knight healthy, they are the way to go.