justicarius6 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 I ran a game at the weekend against a mixed tzeentch daemons and thousand sons force. The thousand sons contingent contained 3 Daemon Princes and Ahriman in a Supreme Command Detachment and for myself as a little bit of psychic defence I included Tigurius. Now, aside from the fact that I don't think I'll be walking straight for some time after being bent over so much, I noticed something after the game. Ahriman is one solitary point more expensive than Tigurius. Even though Ahriman has a far superior statline, better weaponry, can cast and deny three compared to two, and comes with the captain re-reroll aura, and gets to select powers from three separate lists. I know the Codex: Space Marines is in a bad place right now, but really? One effing point...?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 There's nothing wrong with Tigurius. In fact in a codex of incredible mediocrity for a psychic phase he is the one shining light. I understand if you're upset that you lost your game, but some perspective would be nice. I played both characters for a long time, and I wholeheartedly found Tigurius to be a beast in his own right. Even the guarantee of pointing to a Stormraven in T1 and saying 'that's minus 1 to hit' is a pretty darn good throw in. Not too mention the rerolls. Now add in Daemon Princes to the mix, and we're not comparing apples to apples anymore. Honestly as I would play my Thousand Sons against Tigurius the odd game, I was always blown away by his rerolls being inherent compared to the Thousand Sons which is clearly a superior psyker based army. Yet there's this one guy that just is really amazing at casting. I think if Codex Marines had truly potent powers, he'd be in every competitive list. I think the bigger problem is the context. Those psyker powers are just so much more potent from the Chaos side (and maybe rightfully so? They did sell their souls to get there.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5098340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Tigurius and Ahriman are two very different types of Psykers. Ahriman is a moderate melee character and ranged damage dealer whereas Tigurius is a support buff caster. Ahriman's strength is measured in his own raw power, whereas Tigurius' strength is measured by how much he can boost another unit. Tigurius' strength is in his reliability of casting and his AMAZING "Master of Prescience" ability. Rerolling all failed Psychic checks means he almost never fails to throw out his buffs. Have you ever tried killing a Leviathan Dreadnought with T9, -1 to be hit, and a 4+++ against MW's? I would pay 20 MORE points for Tigurius as he stands right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5098395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 I think Tigurius is a great character. They only thing that really holds him back is the powers he has available to him, the psychic powers in codex space marines are just really underwhelming when you compare them to the stuff chaos gets. It makes total sense though that chaos would have better psychic power though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5098406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
justicarius6 Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 To be honest I think you're right, Tigurius is the right points cost for what he can do (although I would argue he deserves some kind of invulnerable save and one more wound) and I certainly don't hate the guy at all. So as we seem to agree that Tigurius is pretty much fine, is the answer that Ahriman is undercosted for what he can do and the stats he has? Here's another take on Ahriman: He is one point cheaper than Captain Sicarius. For the cost of one point, Sicarius loses the immense psychic powers that Ahriman possesses (3 powers from 3 lists, can cast and deny 3 at +1), has an arguably slightly better melee weapon, a better ranged weapon (though still a pistol) and can buff one tactical squad in 6" to fight first in melee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5098928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 There is also the problem that many (many) people compare points between Codex books when they shouldn't. In a Codex full of Psykers, Ahriman would be worth little if he's expensive. Why bother taking him when you could take 2 other Psykers? Put Ahriman into a Tau list and you probably could add about 150pts onto his cost. That's not to say Codex Space Marines powers don't need a rework. They do, massively, but let's not get caught up comparing points between books too intently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
justicarius6 Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 I certainly don't agree with that. The game isn't a market economy where supply and demand should dictate points costs. At the end of the day equally costed units with very similar roles should perform fairly evenly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 If their datasheet were exchanged, the "heretic Tigurius" would still be very popular, if not more popular. And the "loyal Ahriman(on foot)" may be questioned "Is he overcosted?" here. TSons is designed as a mage army; while there aren't enough stuff in marine Codex to support a psyker-centric tactics. Marine psychic powers are not weak on paper. Imagine the auto-pass-morale one casted on cultists. Or a Tzzentch Prince opens a 12'' radius null zone. But they cannot connect with other parts of the codex at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 GW themselves have confirmed points costs are determined through the worth of the unit in the army in question as well as external balance. It makes sense as some units are a staple in some factions and yet wouldn't get a look in when compared to other factions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Probably worth pointing out that Might of Heroes only affects a single model... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Probably worth pointing out that Might of Heroes only affects a single model... Sorry, my mistake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 I had to laugh a bit when I read the OP - I am just glad we have some an awesome psyker in our arsenal. I have been playing in an escalation league where you cannot take any SC and boy do I ever miss him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Probably worth pointing out that Might of Heroes only affects a single model... True, but when that model is now a T9 Land Raider or Leviathan Dread that's not too big a deal! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 True, but when that model is now a T9 Land Raider or Leviathan Dread that's not too big a deal! Why would you ever cast might of heroes on a Land Raider? Making it T10 isn't going to do much, the +1S and +1 attack isn't going to help either. I think the issue with the thinking here is that we are comparing units across codexes as Captain Idaho suggested. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 It increases durability? I've been meaning to try it out on my tanks and Dreads for a while. Meltas, krak missiles, and lances wounding on 4s versus Rhinos and 5s versus Land Raiders/Ironclads/Vindicators is probably a novel sensation for opponents. Bringing lascannons to a 4+ roll against those hard targets is probably just as unique. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 MoH on an LR = No Brainer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 It increases durability? I've been meaning to try it out on my tanks and Dreads for a while. Meltas, krak missiles, and lances wounding on 4s versus Rhinos and 5s versus Land Raiders/Ironclads/Vindicators is probably a novel sensation for opponents. Bringing lascannons to a 4+ roll against those hard targets is probably just as unique. Whooops I made a mistake I thought the Land Raider was already T9. Fair enough. I can see it being useful to have Tiggy buff a land raider that is going to move up field. Still don't think it is necessary though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Necessity is a function of the tactical situation on the tabletop with a lot of variables to consider. Its not hard for me, at least, to imagine a scenario where my LRR being T9 is necessary for victory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 MoH on an LR = No Brainer Necessity is a function of the tactical situation on the tabletop with a lot of variables to consider. Its not hard for me, at least, to imagine a scenario where my LRR being T9 is necessary for victory. I can understand in some situations there might not be a better target for the buff. But it just seems strange to buff a unit that is already tough as nails. Though I guess if you were up against Dark Lances, Lascannons and other S9 weaponry or even a lot of S8 weaponry it might not be a bad idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 MoH on an LR = No Brainer Necessity is a function of the tactical situation on the tabletop with a lot of variables to consider. Its not hard for me, at least, to imagine a scenario where my LRR being T9 is necessary for victory. I can understand in some situations there might not be a better target for the buff. But it just seems strange to buff a unit that is already tough as nails. Though I guess if you were up against Dark Lances, Lascannons and other S9 weaponry or even a lot of S8 weaponry it might not be a bad idea. The difference between T8 and T9 is one of the biggest in the game! TONS of things like Lascannons, Dark Lances, Missile Launchers, most Powerfists/TH (S4), etc are all impacted. it's a 25-33% reduction in incoming damage against those weapons. The same goes for T7 and T8. You're reducing the effectiveness of all Autocannon equivalents by a full THIRD! Overcharged Plasma is now 25% less effective! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 The difference between T8 and T9 is one of the biggest in the game! TONS of things like Lascannons, Dark Lances, Missile Launchers, most Powerfists/TH (S4), etc are all impacted. it's a 25-33% reduction in incoming damage against those weapons. The same goes for T7 and T8. You're reducing the effectiveness of all Autocannon equivalents by a full THIRD! Overcharged Plasma is now 25% less effective! Fair enough... but a land raider isn't exactly a killing machine. I could see it working well on one of those amped up landraiders with like 10 lascannons on them though. Pretty cool idea though. Going to have to throw this in the hat of tricks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 The problem lies with the psychic powers available to Marines, not with Tigarius. To put it bluntly, they are trash, some are utterly mediocre at best. You're better off bringing a Culexus for psychic defence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 The problem lies with the psychic powers available to Marines, not with Tigarius. To put it bluntly, they are trash, some are utterly mediocre at best. You're better off bringing a Culexus for psychic defence. I'd strongly disagree with that statement. Might of Heroes, Veil of Time, and Psychic Fortress are all AMAZING powers. Nullzone, whilst situational can be game changing, and Psychic Scourge also has a place as a targetable Smite. The only really awful power is Fury of the Ancients. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 They really aren't though. We have the worst powers of any codex, easily. They can be used but I certainly won't build tactics around them. My librarians are staying put in their boxes until we get new psychic disciplines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 They really aren't though. We have the worst powers of any codex, easily. They can be used but I certainly won't build tactics around them. My librarians are staying put in their boxes until we get new psychic disciplines. Care to back that statement up with some reasoning? MoH: 25-33% reduction in damage taken for most vehicles. VoT: Equivalent to at least 1 free CP when used. If rerolling both dice roughly 2CP. It also doubles as a free Counter Offensive stratagem in your opponents turn. I'd value this at anywhere between 1-4CP per casting. Nullzone: Probably the hardest of the Librarius Discipline to evaluate as it's the most situational of powers. But throwing a Nullzone in your castle can deter many things from charging into your squishy guys for fear of Heroic Interventions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347896-tigurius-overcosted-or-ahriman-undercosted/#findComment-5099992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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