Slan Drakkos Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 My favorite villains thus far are Lorgar, Fulgrim, and Lucius. Khârn, Angron, and Fabius are also beginning to grow on me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5100312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slitth Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 To have a good villain, you need a good strong believable need that drives them. No one is just evil for the sake of being evil. The best story does not have villains or heroes. They just have people that are in a conflict. Now of all the "villains" in the Horus Heresy, I only have one that I find is a bad villain. And that is Lorgar. I find his fall to chaos weak, in my opinion the is no good strong believable need that drives him to the fall. Despite there being lot of strong needs in him that would have lead him right over the edge with a smile on his face. It far to detach and clinical thoughts that leads to the fall. If there was more anger or passion, then I would believe it. A strong denial of godless universe would have be powerful drive. After all there are proof of gods in the form of the Emperor. But if he is not the true god, then he must be the false god that must be cast out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5100388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Lorgars fall was much better written than Fulgrims or even Horus’s, in my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5100498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Oddly, O'Shassera in various T'au-related stories. There's a fair amount of schlock going on in places, but much of the time O'Shassera isn't moustache-twirlingly evil, but shockingly competent- and from the Marine's view: as insidious and evil as they come. (Though the temptation of the Khan is pretty damn compelling.) It's a neat turn on most 40k villains. ---- I really like the Necron Overlord in "Dead Men Walking", possibly the last time we saw the really bleak and horrifying power of the Necrons. "Surrender and die." ---- I think that's the crux of it. I think villains often tend to be charismatic in the first instance, by their very conciet, but often that's hammed up or flavoured deliciously. But, more than pathos or intent or design or things, I think a degree of *competence* sells them on me. In that respect, we must jump tracks slightly. ---- "Archaon: Everchosen" presents two prominent antagonists - three if you count Archaon himself - The first of which is Be'lakor who is pulling the strings. Elegantly. Fiendishly. But very moustache twirlingly. Nevertheless, the power and inevitability of it is... enchanting. Overpowering. There is a second antagonist: Sigmar, and the other gods. It's a delicious journey. It continues into the second book (though it's a touch less poetic and energising), I really found myself powerfully *hating* the gods, and Sigmar especially. This presentation of the overwhelming for is pretty neat. The lack of choice, the drive of the protagonist, the will and the agony. It's something that has almost never been close to approximated in the Horus Heresy. ("Path of Heaven" and "After De'shea" notwithstanding - they cover vaguely similar territory in a very similarly glorious way.) And almost never touched in 40k - the hatred of the Imperium and the Emperor isn't so compelling because it's all rotten. The 'Salvation of the Emperor' is a bleak and horrifying thing, not something easily aspired to. Rob managed something very similar in "Atlas Infernal", with Czevak's cavalier attitude, but even then Czevak's mind is looking to other things. Indeed: What should have been a monumental crowning moment of awesome for Horus, his magic door escapade in "Angel Exterminatus", is not only happening off-screen, the change is given so little 'show' and so much 'tell' that is difficult to actually stomach for very long with much credibility. If you pause the HH at that point and skip to read the Archaon duology, then you get a sense of what your dismal hero should be feeling, the horrifying and inescapable weight of the villains they are fighting against. ---- Authors and readers and editors alike could do well to study that Archaon duology. There's a huge amount to enjoy in it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5100523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slan Drakkos Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 To have a good villain, you need a good strong believable need that drives them. No one is just evil for the sake of being evil. The best story does not have villains or heroes. They just have people that are in a conflict. Now of all the "villains" in the Horus Heresy, I only have one that I find is a bad villain. And that is Lorgar. I find his fall to chaos weak, in my opinion the is no good strong believable need that drives him to the fall. Despite there being lot of strong needs in him that would have lead him right over the edge with a smile on his face. It far to detach and clinical thoughts that leads to the fall. If there was more anger or passion, then I would believe it. A strong denial of godless universe would have be powerful drive. After all there are proof of gods in the form of the Emperor. But if he is not the true god, then he must be the false god that must be cast out. wait, what? Lorgars fall is absolutely the most valid of them all. There are people in real life that performed atrocities in the name of God. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5100870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I totally disagree about Lorgars fall being 'weak'. His made the most sense (to me) the way it was written. He personally is weak and so his fall was easy. But also totally believable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5100887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slitth Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 To have a good villain, you need a good strong believable need that drives them. No one is just evil for the sake of being evil. The best story does not have villains or heroes. They just have people that are in a conflict. Now of all the "villains" in the Horus Heresy, I only have one that I find is a bad villain. And that is Lorgar. I find his fall to chaos weak, in my opinion the is no good strong believable need that drives him to the fall. Despite there being lot of strong needs in him that would have lead him right over the edge with a smile on his face. It far to detach and clinical thoughts that leads to the fall. If there was more anger or passion, then I would believe it. A strong denial of godless universe would have be powerful drive. After all there are proof of gods in the form of the Emperor. But if he is not the true god, then he must be the false god that must be cast out. wait, what? Lorgars fall is absolutely the most valid of them all. There are people in real life that performed atrocities in the name of God. So true and Lorgar performed atrocities in the name of the Emperor before the fall and performed atrocities in the name of the chaos after the fall. In both periods he has good strong believable need that drives him. It it the period where is in the transition it where he falters. He is to detach and clinical for a man that has lost everything and is betrayed by all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5100905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 To have a good villain, you need a good strong believable need that drives them. No one is just evil for the sake of being evil. The best story does not have villains or heroes. They just have people that are in a conflict. Now of all the "villains" in the Horus Heresy, I only have one that I find is a bad villain. And that is Lorgar. I find his fall to chaos weak, in my opinion the is no good strong believable need that drives him to the fall. Despite there being lot of strong needs in him that would have lead him right over the edge with a smile on his face. It far to detach and clinical thoughts that leads to the fall. If there was more anger or passion, then I would believe it. A strong denial of godless universe would have be powerful drive. After all there are proof of gods in the form of the Emperor. But if he is not the true god, then he must be the false god that must be cast out. wait, what? Lorgars fall is absolutely the most valid of them all. There are people in real life that performed atrocities in the name of God. So true and Lorgar performed atrocities in the name of the Emperor before the fall and performed atrocities in the name of the chaos after the fall. In both periods he has good strong believable need that drives him. It it the period where is in the transition it where he falters. He is to detach and clinical for a man that has lost everything and is betrayed by all. Too detached and clinical? Lorgar is an absolute mess after Monarchia, and he throws himself completely into the pilgrimage to distract himself: this is a common response to trauma. Not only that, but the transition period you refer too isn't something we actually see, because The First Heretic follows Argel Tal, not Lorgar. Erebus says to Argel Tal after all that Lorgar did not take the news brought back from the Eye of Terror well. And as for Betrayer, that is post-Corax duel, where Lorgar becomes convinced that he has defied fate. Fanaticism takes many forms, but Lorgar fits the bill perfectly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5101171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Oh man where to begin.... I guess I’ll start with Fabulous Bill. What a characature, what a terribly predictable muppet. I’ve said this once or twice before, but... there seems to be a problem I have with 40k characters that makes it very difficult for me to believe/respect them. I dunno, I’ve been reading bits and pieces about these guys since the mid 90’s, and so much of it seems so campy to me. I am currently about half way through the primary novel ‘Fulgrim,’ and I gotta say, I am enjoying it, but I just can’t help but roll my eyes at how Fabulous Bill is constantly portrayed as a guy who is pushed out and sequestered by his brothers. I get it, he’s different. I get it, he’s creepy. I just can’t gandle the mustache twirling. That said, I’ve come to actually enjoy a certain villain from a certain legion quite a bit! Who is it, I hear you ask? Why, it is Sar Luther. No, really, I mean it. As much as I joke about the dark angels, there is something about Luther that lately just works for me. I actually found it believable when Typhon of all people, a posthuman, found himself drawn in by the essence of a mortal. I never would’ve thunk it, but I find myself really looking forward to the book that describes the Lion coming home. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5102690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Grimaldus in Helsreach was a pretty entertaining villain to read and follow, even though he was the protagonist. So many good orks dead before their prime... I love you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5106658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 @karden00 "Fabulous Bill" made me LOL... What a great autocorrect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5106702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 I feel like this could be two different threads, as antagonist and villain can mean different things in the context of 40K fiction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5106703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @karden00 "Fabulous Bill" made me LOL... What a great autocorrect. Cheers mate, but that was actually intentional. Isnt that kind of a thing other people have called him? I’m sure I’ve seen it on this board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5107103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 It may have been sarcasm. Incidentally, I think Mortarion works so well in PoH partly because Wraight deploys him along some of the lines referenced here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?vl=en&v=pFUKeD3FJm8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5107146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 @karden00 "Fabulous Bill" made me LOL... What a great autocorrect. Cheers mate, but that was actually intentional. Isnt that kind of a thing other ppl have called him? I’m sure I’ve seen it on this board. In which case even funnier. I use an iPad and get driven mad by autocorrect (yep should just switch off) but sometimes they are hilarious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5107189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Strictly regarding an antagonist, I'd like to talk a bit about Mortarion in Path of Heaven. Some BL antagonists are just kind of there and you don't get much presence from them - Siege of Castellax springs to mind, though perhaps in that book it's because it wants you to focus on the barbarity of its villainous protagonists instead of the Orks - while their reasons often go little further than kill/stop the heroes. Mortarion actually appears before the Khan in this book, and his scene with Horus sets out stakes for the story on several levels, particularly personal stakes for Mortarion. Suddenly Mortarion's reasons to pursue the V are much weightier and involving than "unfinished business" and he is on his own journey to confront them as opposed to being conveyed from here to there by the plot. Thus, even though it's the Emperor's Children who actually do the villainous heavy lifting in the first act, Mortarion's presence looms over the rest of the novel. Vulnerability plays a key role here, making him paradoxically more dangerous. Mortarion fears for his position, and so Grulgor and his other sorcerous misdeeds lurk at the back of his mind, he skulks in his chambers and Typhon, once his most reliable general, is nowhere to be found. Greater jeopardy makes him even more unrelenting, and even more of a threat to our heroes. Moreover, it's vulnerability that doesn't spill over into incompetence. Mortarion has key advantages and he uses them. The mistakes he does make are in keeping with his character and therefore don't have that cheap Idiot Ball element to them. Tl;dr: Mortarion's compelling in PoH not just because he's well written, but also well plotted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5107341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 To follow that up, what would people say has made an antagonist (as opposed to just a villain) underwhelming in their experience? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5108902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 To follow that up, what would people say has made an antagonist (as opposed to just a villain) underwhelming in their experience? Unintentional incompetence and an abundance of annoying tropes, mostly. 40k antagonists I can stomach being bland, so long as the protagonist faction is interesting, but enemy forces are too frequently built up as a huge threat, but only succeed in killing red shirts. The Sons of Horus get this badly in their non-focus books, one of the most fearsome legions largely being faceless, generic, and predictable. The Tyranids are also a frequent victim, all hype and no pay off, usually (there are of course exceptions to both examples) What I find most odd is a lack of great antagonists in 40k, a setting that seems almost tailor-made for such a thing. Something like the Witcher novels, by contrast, have several antagonists who fall into the evil-with-no-shades-of-grey category, but they are all memorably cruel and sometimes almost comically sinister. 40k on the other hand usually has a bunch of generic captain-marines indistinguishable from all other generic captain-marines, who exist only to command a fleet and then die. A pity, really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5111132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Interesting. It's a weird thought, but truly, I can only think of a handful of really good antagonists in the books I've read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5111183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 For antagonists, so many have either been bland with no real character other than "eeeevil", or just present to make the main character look good as he kills hundreds of enemies. I think this is the main disappointment I've had in the Imperium Secundus portrayals of Night Haunter. Instead of a broken demi-god, we get a does what he does for lulz, since he's an Evil Dude. No deeper meaning to his character, just a guy who kicks puppies and twirls his moustache. The Fabulous Bill thing comes from a story way back, where apparently a lady went into a GW to get a model for her son, but apparently asked if they had any models of "Fabulous Bill" instead of the actual name. The story reached the internet, and became the meme we know and love. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5113206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Having recently finished Void Stalker for the first time, I happily add Talos to my small pantheon of decent 40k villainy. He stands out from other villain protagonists in that his actions don't "benefit" his supporting cast, Talos flings his cast and crew headlong into death thanks to his sudden bout of obsessive cruelty. He may be the protagonist, but he is the antagonist to all other characters in the book, whom are dragged along only thanks to fear or failing loyalty. That we got to know him as a semi-likable chaos marine in the preceding books just makes him that much better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5123037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 SoH and WB are the CSM whipping boys IF are the loyalist whipping boys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5129606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Returning to this, I found in Praetorian of Dorn I found the Alpha Legion were really effective as villains. Partly because the smugness you'd expect from a Legion which worships at the altar of the Magnificent Bastard comes through quite a lot. At the same time they're alarmingly competent - and again, well plotted, with French engineering a collision course over the duration of the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347903-lets-talk-villains-and-antagonists/page/2/#findComment-5170987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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