Units, and armies coming full circle.

[Prot]

I hope to start a conversation on not just a philosophical level but more importantly a practical level.

 

I’ve just come off an ITC Gt with the ol’ Death Guard and I’d like to put a new direction into my Ultramarines. Sort of coming full circle.

 

At first I’d like to avoid Guilliman even though I rarely used him. The Death Guard have reminded me how poor Marines stand overall compared to the ocean of Xenos stuff out there now. Even my Death Guard Plague Marines shrunk down to 5 models while I tried to avoid power armour on a competitive level.

 

But now the game might be coming full circle with Knights coming out. Can spammy, cheap chaff retain its hold on the top tables with Knights around the corner? Can elite armies stare down the might of the new Knight dex? Have we come full circle to balanced lists again?

 

I really don’t know but my recent experiences and the new releases have me thinking about the possibility of units I put on the shelf at the opening months of 8th.

 

Specifically I’m talking about stuff like Thunderfire Cannons perhaps, maybe my old whirlwinds.

 

I even think about some other stuff I stopped using like flyers and even Centurions.

 

How about elite choices of marine types? Does Deathwatch do it that much better?

 

What do you guys think... am I looking at this all wrong perhaps?

[Captain Idaho]

It's early days but many tournaments are following GW's lead and dropping down to 1750pts. That's potentially limiting to elites armies, particularly Knights.

 

Marines die easily. That hurts competitive play but does trickle down the overall balance spectrum. The crucial element to determine what needs to be done to rebalance things is work out why this is and do things like points limits of tournaments and likely opponents.

 

So stringing these thoughts together; what are Marines likely to oppose in a competitive and semi-competitive scene? Will more players go for more single shot anti-tank weapons and rely on small arms to oppose infantry? Tricks like Guardians and Cultist rapid fire bombs giving way because wound on a 6+ limits the point of such moves?

 

Hopefully the game might tilt towards a more balanced situation unless players want to play paper rock scissors. If you come up against Knights with your cheesey list designed to kill Marines then maybe you'll lose and thus can't win a tournament.

 

Here's a thought - what are the best ways to defeat Knights for armies and how does that affect Marines? Plasma spam and equivalent has been hard on Marines and made Primaris a terribly weak choice on the table.

 

In fact a more balanced approach would help many of those new players. I've come across a few new Marines players (differing Chapters including BA) who jumped on the Primaris train and found their lovely new models getting wiped out within a couple turns. That's more fundamental an issue to Primaris that will likely result in them getting their own Codex and more units, but it's a definite issue. New players getting to grips with the hobby and getting thrashed sends a poor messege.

[StraightSilver]

I'm by no means a competitive player but I have to admit that my games so far with 8th have been primarily with vanilla marines (Ultras) and they've been doing (mostly) ok.

Just purely down to the fact that I have been playing with what I have painted my list hasn't drastically changed since 7th edition. However, I now don't get to field anywhere near as much as I used to. In part that was down to 7th Edition formations being bonkers (free transports for everyone) but I also think Marines are now a bit too expensive in 8th. Somewhere in between would be good.

I've been using things like Centurions though and they are "ok", not great and certainly not as good as in 7th but they do alright.

Personally I'd like to be able to spam Tac Marines and have enough points left to run some tanks and elites but right now I struggle to squeeze in more than 3 Tac squads.

I have 2 friends who have just started Primaris - and their lists are almost identical (and to mine) which I think is a reflection that you really can't get much out of a pure Primaris list right now.

The armies I do struggle against though are small elite armies (especially Custodes) so I'd like to see some changes here.

Funnily enough Knights so far haven't bothered me (I run a lot of las cannons) - I tend to one shot them with Devastators. However that may change once the new codex drops.

[Captain Idaho]

Knights might make Custodes less prominent with their Shield Breaker Missiles and sheer killing power. Fingers crossed.

[StraightSilver]

Knights might make Custodes less prominent with their Shield Breaker Missiles and sheer killing power. Fingers crossed.

Yes, I must admit it will be a lot easier to get rid of those jet bikes.... :)

[Prot]

Oh I wouldn't go back to pure primaris unless it was my dual Repulsor loadout which I think is boned once Knights hit the table. Knights at 1750 are definitely playable especially with the new Armiger variant, and the large point decrease.  It'll make taking a Castellan easier which is such an incredibly potent unit it makes you wonder.

 

There's ways to counter this, but I feel more than ever it's a good time to revisit older units. I mean really basic stuff like Dev squads, and as far as Primaris I've had good luck with Plasma Inceptors, but that's about it. I don't really even use Helblasters anymore. Just not enough damage for higher resilience. Plus I keep mentioning this but IG parking lot is nuts. It's incredibly strong here. I basically MUST go first to have about a 30% chance of winning. If I go second, I might as well pack the table and call it a night.

[StraightSilver]

I never leave home without at least one Devastator squad, with banner and captain/lieutenant bubble they are too good not to use.

And yes - IG parking lot is absolutely bonkers - IG are insane this edition.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think Knights will make Astra Millitarum any less powerful. Likely the opposite

[Prot]

I don't think Knights will make Astra Millitarum any less powerful. Likely the opposite

 

see I think they will possibly replace most Astra in competitive play (I have to put that in there, because playing strictly for fun won't care about pure destructive abilities). The way we're seeing rules for some of these guns, Astra will have issues touching this stuff, and it's very mobile compared to Astra and can't be hidden from. Some of these one shot cannons are bonkers.

 

More to my point though is the meta shift once Knights hit. Right now I hate that cheap junk is all the rage. Who can afford to ignore knights after that dex drops? Everyone has to start thinking about ways to bring down big toughies at least once per tournament.

 

If this causes us to diversify our lists more, I'm hoping Chaff falls out the bottom (at least to some degree).

[Captain Idaho]

I meant Astra Millitarum will be the go to faction to run alongside a Dominus.

[Prot]

I meant Astra Millitarum will be the go to faction to run alongside a Dominus.

 

Oh.. yea. For sure. Astra holds that title right now. Every loyalist list I saw (if it had mixed soup) was <blank> plus astra, and it's just to farm CP's They do it best, and cheapest. Knights will be CP starved. 

[Ishagu]

Which major tournaments are following GW's 1750point levels?

[Aothaine]

 

Who can afford to ignore knights after that dex drops? Everyone has to start thinking about ways to bring down big toughies at least once per tournament.

 

 

I think knights are going to be a positive effect on the meta. The problem with Astra parking lots will not change, they will just bring different units. Orks are going to have huge issues, I think maybe Tyranids? Tyranids have big monsters that can help them out a lot against knights though. But Orks are full out boned. They have one unit that can handle vehicles effectively and they are expensive. 

 

Blood Angels are going to be fine. With Angel's Wing they are set. I think Dark Angels have a similar, no overwatch, ability as well.

 

Ohhhh!

 

I wonder if we can ally in Inquisitors in terminator armor for the psychic powers.

 

Dominate: WC value 7. Targets an enemy Character within 18". You immediately take control of the enemy unit and can make a single shooting or close combat attack against their own team.

 

Terrify: WC value 6. Target a single enemy unit within 18". The unit subtracts 1 from their leadership and cannot fire overwatch.

[CCE1981]

Right now after seeing Knights the only way I can see to resolve the issues that come up is for tournaments to have players bring multiple lists. This adds work to the Turnament Organizers, but means players can actually have the goodies to bring down an opponent. Obviously with soup being a thing there is all sorts of havoc this can bring.