What to do next? Move on?

[Prot]

Hey guys,

 

I've had a few days to think since my ITC tournament and consider the state of my Death Guard.

 

I do think over the years I've come back to play DG so many times that it might be part of the way I'm thinking right now, but I'm trying to think of where to go with the army, or perhaps it's time to sell it and move on. The collection is quite sizable now. I did do this with my Thousand Sons as well, and although I miss them, I also do not miss the big push behind goats.

 

I'm 'okay' with having a Daemon Contingent, but I didn't want the army to turn into Nurgle with a sprinkle of Deathguard. I see many competitive players have gone this way. Typically the most successful of which look like lots of nurgle spam, and some Plagueburst Crawlers.

 

The other direction would be into super heavy territory. I have no idea if Knights will allow that, or perhaps a Leviathan Dread?

 

I don't want to go back to Plaguemarines in tournaments. It's a rough road and something has to do serious damage these days. What do you guys think of getting into Forgeworld? What are some of the more favourable units there?

[Checkmate77]

It would truly be a shame if you left the brotherhood Prot,

 

I completely understand your frustration with the direction competetive play is going, but then again...didn't you yourself say you were not too big into the competetive side of the game? 

 

I think it would be cool if you could turn a Chaos Knight all "Nurgly" and run him as part of your DG army.  With your painting skill I'd love to see what you come up with. 

I've also seen a lot of people on the forum swear by the Leviathan Dreadnaughts (or one of the other super heavy ones). 

 

As to PMs, you seemed to have had some decent success with your PMs in the last tournament didn't you? 

 

Regardless, I hope you stick around and don't sell off your DG (maybe cull the herd a bit instead?)

[happyslugger]

I play mono DG but not competively, just with my son.

 

I just ordered a relic contemptor for him and a Leviathan for me (he wanted the Contemptor) and have just ordered a renegade knight box set so we can throw those into the mix.  Just to make it a little different.

[Clincher37]

I completely agree with you Prot and I'm sad to say that I've just finished selling off all my Nurgle/DG to move on to another army. I'm not a hyper competitive player but there's a difference between being tournament-competitive and trying to at least have an army that's hard enough that it doesn't get steamrolled in every game. I started out with mono Death Guard and just got utterly annihilated in every game I played because the local guys play some pretty hard lists and stuff like plague marines just don't hold up well in the current meta. The poxwalker farm made it possible for me to continue playing mono Death Guard and still being able to compete once I got enough poxwalkers and cultists to play the list but shortly after, it was destroyed in the big FAQ. Side note: I do agree that poxwalker farm needed to be fixed but that is something being discussed in another thread.

 

Over the time I was playing the army I continued to add more Nurgle Daemons to my list to the point that all I was using were daemon engines from my DG collection and I really wasn't happy with it because that's not what I wanted to play. 

 

Now, that being said, I do think looking at FW could make mono-DG workable and more competitive. Leviathan and Deredeo Dreads are scary in a Death Guard army because of Inexorable Advance and I think it could definitely work. 

[Prot]

It would truly be a shame if you left the brotherhood Prot,

 

I completely understand your frustration with the direction competetive play is going, but then again...didn't you yourself say you were not too big into the competetive side of the game? 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, I appreciate it. By not into competitive, I mean that I don't... desire or covet some ITC ranking. I just don't care enough about that side of it. But I do have groups that tend to play very strong stuff, and while I don't care about ITC particularly, enough people do that I'm always willing to playtest their latest stuff. Basically it amounts to trying to be 'competitive enough' without getting smoked.

 

 

As to PMs, you seemed to have had some decent success with your PMs in the last tournament didn't you? 

 

Regardless, I hope you stick around and don't sell off your DG (maybe cull the herd a bit instead?)

 

The PM's were sadly the least effective part of my list. I needed more, but at 1750 my 'grenade trick' rarely worked. When it did, it was fantastic, but more times than not I was in trouble with that squad, hemorrhaging kill points from all those elite characters.

 

Thanks for the compliments on the army, but I was a little taken back by the lack of painting success in the eyes of the tournament. I think what appealed there was very bright, crisp, paint schemes. I used a lot of time consuming techniques on the Deathguard, and I've sold a LOT of armies for quite a good payout, and I would put most of my DG up there with the rest of them.

 

 

I play mono DG but not competively, just with my son.

 

I just ordered a relic contemptor for him and a Leviathan for me (he wanted the Contemptor) and have just ordered a renegade knight box set so we can throw those into the mix.  Just to make it a little different.

 

I'm thinking a Leviathan for the DG or my Deathwatch.Both armies benefit a lot.

 

 

I completely agree with you Prot and I'm sad to say that I've just finished selling off all my Nurgle/DG to move on to another army. I'm not a hyper competitive player but there's a difference between being tournament-competitive and trying to at least have an army that's hard enough that it doesn't get steamrolled in every game. I started out with mono Death Guard and just got utterly annihilated in every game I played because the local guys play some pretty hard lists and stuff like plague marines just don't hold up well in the current meta. The poxwalker farm made it possible for me to continue playing mono Death Guard and still being able to compete once I got enough poxwalkers and cultists to play the list but shortly after, it was destroyed in the big FAQ. Side note: I do agree that poxwalker farm needed to be fixed but that is something being discussed in another thread.

 

Over the time I was playing the army I continued to add more Nurgle Daemons to my list to the point that all I was using were daemon engines from my DG collection and I really wasn't happy with it because that's not what I wanted to play. 

 

Now, that being said, I do think looking at FW could make mono-DG workable and more competitive. Leviathan and Deredeo Dreads are scary in a Death Guard army because of Inexorable Advance and I think it could definitely work. 

 

 

That's kind of disappointing to hear. I will say the diversity and character of the army is fantastic, but I reluctantly admit the 'Death Guard' portion of it is the weaker end of the scale, and the Poxwalker thing went way too far. I suspected it before, I know it to be true now.

 

If anything keeps me in the army it would be the character. With Mortarion, all those elite characters, the funky vehicles... it's really a unique army. I almost wish they were releasing it now... today. The difference in these last few codexes has been amazing. And Knights are going to be huge meta changers (or so it looks like.)

[HeresyBeliever]

I have been running a Death Guard / alpha legion list. 

 

Alpha legion was cultist spam and obliterators 

The death guard in it was a spear head of daemon prince, 2 x crawlers and 2 x leviathans. 

 

Leviathans are amazing (though expensive) T8 always a winner over T7, Invol save. I ran one with twin grav one with twin butcher cannons. The do a lot of damage but if they die you lose a lot of points. 

 

I am now moving towards the Nurgle / DG list. 

 

Nurgle battalion of Daemon prince / poxbringer and 3 x nurgling units. Death guard outrider of Damon prince 3 x drones and 2 x crawlers. The last 500 points is where I am stuck is Mortarion worth the investment or would and doing another heavy and daemon prince to add a spear head be the better way?

 

I am going to test the Nurgle battalion Death guard Outrider & spear head out with a leviathan in. 

 

What the Death guard lack is ranged punch which FW can offer. A Twin butcher cannon Leviathan can offer you a 42" threat range hitting on 2's as they can move without penalty.

 

The other thing to consider is DG contemptors. Every tournament I have done (mostly one day events) 'Big guns never tire' mission come up and people with few heavy support tend to be at an advantage which is which I looking at the contemptors more.  

 

Having a long range threat should worry your opponent as they then have the choice of shoot the things like drones charging forward or they will be over ran turn 2 or take out the back field guns. 

 

I have also found going second against most armies is to the benefit to death guard as there tends to be a better target selection after your opponent moves. But this relies on you hiding turn one a lot. I tend to put out a crawler in the open to draw fire knowing they can take it. 

 

 

What army would you do if you moved on? Chaos has such a depth to them to make them work. 

[Panzer]

If you think about selling them because of the current rules then I say don't. Rules change all the time and before you know it they could introduce some kind of new rule that makes the Marine part of the Codex much more interesting compared to daemons and/or Cultists/Poxwalker.

If it's because you lost interest in DG as a faction from a non-rules related point of view, then I say go ahead (tho my personal believe is that selling an army will always be regretted eventually).

 

I'd tell you the same about your TSons and Tzaangors but that's a little bit late and not the topic here. ^^

[Clincher37]

 

 

I completely agree with you Prot and I'm sad to say that I've just finished selling off all my Nurgle/DG to move on to another army. I'm not a hyper competitive player but there's a difference between being tournament-competitive and trying to at least have an army that's hard enough that it doesn't get steamrolled in every game. I started out with mono Death Guard and just got utterly annihilated in every game I played because the local guys play some pretty hard lists and stuff like plague marines just don't hold up well in the current meta. The poxwalker farm made it possible for me to continue playing mono Death Guard and still being able to compete once I got enough poxwalkers and cultists to play the list but shortly after, it was destroyed in the big FAQ. Side note: I do agree that poxwalker farm needed to be fixed but that is something being discussed in another thread.

 

Over the time I was playing the army I continued to add more Nurgle Daemons to my list to the point that all I was using were daemon engines from my DG collection and I really wasn't happy with it because that's not what I wanted to play. 

 

Now, that being said, I do think looking at FW could make mono-DG workable and more competitive. Leviathan and Deredeo Dreads are scary in a Death Guard army because of Inexorable Advance and I think it could definitely work. 

 

 

That's kind of disappointing to hear. I will say the diversity and character of the army is fantastic, but I reluctantly admit the 'Death Guard' portion of it is the weaker end of the scale, and the Poxwalker thing went way too far. I suspected it before, I know it to be true now.

 

If anything keeps me in the army it would be the character. With Mortarion, all those elite characters, the funky vehicles... it's really a unique army. I almost wish they were releasing it now... today. The difference in these last few codexes has been amazing. And Knights are going to be huge meta changers (or so it looks like.)

 

 

I definitely hear you on wishing it was released now and not when it was. Part of what drove me to selling it is that I feel stratagems are what gives an army the character that allows me to enjoy them and the Death Guard just don't have many that I would like to use. Most of them are copy pasta from Codex: CSM and require you to build your list a certain way (Kill Shot, Fire Frenzy) or require the perfect scenario to use them (Nurgle's Rot, Blight Bombardment) then Dead Walk Again got completely gutted. 

 

I'll definitely still hang around the DG forums here on B&C because it's interesting seeing what you guys are coming up with. 

 

It really sounds to me like you have a love for the Death Guard though and I think FW can provide you with what you're looking for in your army. Mine was also not painted nearly as well as yours. It definitely seems like in painting competitions around here, judges tend to pass straight over anything Nurgle because there seems to be a stigma that it's not hard to paint them, you just paint it badly then cover it in a wash to make it look dirty. 

[Bulwyf]

Get a Levi dread. It makes a world of difference. Being able to move and still hit on 2's with a 18'' inch weapon that essentially auto hits and does 5 damage per hit on vehicles makes for some sad faces on the other side of the table.

[Prot]

Some really good thoughts. 

 

Sometimes I do miss my Thousand Sons, but I see them played at something competitive like the ITC event I was just at and I instantly lose that desire to play them. lol

 

I have to be honest with myself I think in part my personal outlook would be more positive if I didn't feel like I hit a glass ceiling on the army.

 

I actually have 10 Blightlords, and I am thinking of getting the Leviathan because the Knights are going to be a real game changer.  (I'm still a big fan of Melta on Blightlords).

 

I was thinking of lists that could be interesting in the new era is to keep harder targets surrounded by junk (it's still 8th edition right?) So Mort and (at 2K) his Deathshroud body guard, Blightlord Meltas, and the Leviathan with Miasma.

 

The rest is cheap junk, nurglings, and metal boxes. To be honest I took some critisicm for metal boxes but I think going forward with Knights dudes like the toilet cannon, Biologus, etc, need the metal boxes. 

 

That's where I would look next. (unless we actually could take fancy shmancy knights.) 

 

There's no doubt some of my recent experiences are weighing in on this too.I still can't help but feel disjointed at GW's complete spank down of the Poxwalker unit.

 

Of course last night I play against some serious Cultsts Blobs and my opponent is wanting to use Tide of Traitors multiple times! That definitely was a problem. 

[BlackTriton]

I sadden by your unsatisfaction with the army in general. I see where its comming from though, and I do feel a sting every time a new codex come out and its blowing away all expectation.

 

However, I am eternally hopefull and beleive the situation can/will improve if we give constructive feedback.

 

It might be time for you to switch project, but isnt early to sell them off just yet?

[Emicus]

Always thought you'd love it in a less competitive environment, Prot. Let the creativity flow!

 

I'm definitely shelving mine when the Knights arrive though. Gonna go hog-wild! Not cause DG ain't working for me but Knights man.

[DominikB]

Always thought you'd love it in a less competitive environment, Prot. Let the creativity flow!

 

I'm definitely shelving mine when the Knights arrive though. Gonna go hog-wild! Not cause DG ain't working for me but Knights man.

I so want one for my Chaos...but oh well :(

 

Prot your reports/updates have brought me much joy and motivation for my own death guard, so it’d be sad to see you go!

[Charlo]

So what turned me away from DG (because man was I hyped by Mortarion!) was two fold:

 

1) I'd heard PMs just weren't hitting the mark

2) The detail/ excessive mutations on the infantry just looked like hell to paint

3) Custodes happened

 

To me, the DG are a solid wall of bloated ceramite, inexorable with guns blazing that slowly advance and crush the opposition... + loads of Terminators. Then Plague Zombies because I'm a sucker for the Eye of Terra codex ;)

 

While this is quite a loose description, it certainly doesn't match up with how they play on the table... PMs are pretty vulnerable, their shooting is still just a few special weapons and the best units move fast (Wing DPs, Drones etc). The PBC is actually the most "DG" feeling of all the units. Zombies were nerfed into the ground and when daemons have more synergy with the warmachines than the Astartes they are owned by, there is a problem.

 

I think the fantasy just isn't there from an army perspective, not to mention in a world of AM gunlines & Drukhari laser boats; what chance does the humble PM have?

 

However, I will say your army looks amazing and you're really starting to get the playstyle down - maybe keep it up for a little bit more and see how it goes?

[jlmb_123]

To me, the DG are a solid wall of bloated ceramite, inexorable with guns blazing that slowly advance and crush the opposition... + loads of Terminators. Then Plague Zombies because I'm a sucker for the Eye of Terra codex

 

Same, that piece of artwork with the Plague Marines, zombies, cultists and flies from the EoT book is one of my favourites.

 

I've just started to build my army and I'm still going with it despite the limitations, but then I'm used to losing because I play Ravenwing otherwise. If you like an army for what it is, stick with it! DG is definitely the most characterful army out there.

[Bulwyf]

You can still do that. I play my DG as exactly that. I never went all in with poxwalker spam. I walk my PM up with a screen of one unit of poxwalkers with Typhus in most lists. You can absolutely play well with DG and do well with them. The problem is that DG is not a top three army in competitive play. We will never have enough pure shooting to stack up with Eldar, Guard, Dark Eldar or Tau. If that is the litmus test you want to hold this army up to then you will never be happy.

 

If you want to look at it as sheer fun and if you like the fluff...this army is fantastic. The models look great. The rules and synergy encourage you to play like the fluff suggests DG should operate. We are, frankly, one of the few armies I would argue that the codex actually makes the fluff possible in play.

[Panzer]

I honestly think people would be surprised how decently a Primaris, DG or TSons armies play if you focus on Marine troops. Tho that's the case for casual and semi-competetive games. Once you go full competetive you won't get very far with such lists currently and as I understand Prots local meta is very competetive unfortunately.

[Prot]

Well I've had quite a few games since the tournament with 'other' armies. 

 

Last night I decided I would crack out the Death Guard for a semi-competitive, casual game. It was a newer experience for me going against pure Blood Angels.

 

I will say I went back to units I enjoy for various reasons. (model aesthetics, unit background, etc.)

 

Quickly the dysfunction set in on -some- of these:

- Plague Marines on foot. Again almost worthless.

- Myphitic Blighthauler. Love this model, it helped protect Plaguemarines for one turn.

- Typhus and Poxwalkers. A full 20 men, marched up the field. Very mediocre results.

- Lord in Termie armour (why the heck did they not fix D.R. on this guy?)+ 5 Blightlords with combimelta (my fave) and Flail. - They did really good, and went toe to toe with Captain Smash and friends.

- Tallyman refunded 1 out of 12 CP's.

- Plague Surgeon with Fulgaris Helm -successfully- converted a grand total of 1 failed Distgustingly Resilient roll into a save. Ironically this was at the end of the game, for himself, and it didn't matter because the other '1's' did not convert, causing his death.

 

I left the Plagueburst Crawlers at home. The same suspects did 90% of the heavy lifting.

 

The 'Nurgle' part still feels the most -functional- part of the army for the points. It's not going to take down Guilliman, but point for point, the Nurgle stuff carries its weight. Whereas a lot of the Death Guard does not.

 

It was 'fun' list for me. It definitely was refreshing to get solid mileage out of the Blightlords.

[Azekai]

Were the BA particularly threatening? Sometimes they seem almost as hard as DG with those goofy sanguinary priests.

[Bulwyf]

If I know I'm facing an assault list you have to put the Foul Blightspawn in there. His anti charge bubble is fantastic. His autohit phosphex sprayer weapon is also fantastic. Just last night I played my wife who was using my Space Wolves army against my DG. I interrupted Wulfen on the charge. I was able to one shot a las predator the turn before. 

 

I don't know why PM walking up the board do so poorly for you. I get great success out of them. I either have them loaded up with plasma guns or blight launchers with a DP giving reroll to plague wounds. They always kill more points than they cost in the end.

 

Frankly the only unit in our army I don't find much success with are poxwalkers.

[Prot]

Were the BA particularly threatening? Sometimes they seem almost as hard as DG with those goofy sanguinary priests.

 

It was a bit of a dog's breakfast. Some aspects of the list... the Guard/Priest/Smash Captain were really threatening, but I think what happened here is my  HQ core was what he really wanted to smash into. But I knew this going in, so I never gave him a hole anywhere near where I suspected he wanted to drop the whole gong show in. 

 

So as a result he tried closing on me from the back of my lines, and while Smash and friends were deadly, they got stuck in with my Blightlords and never made it to the juicy center that I'm sure he'd rather have focused on. 

 

If I know I'm facing an assault list you have to put the Foul Blightspawn in there. His anti charge bubble is fantastic. His autohit phosphex sprayer weapon is also fantastic. Just last night I played my wife who was using my Space Wolves army against my DG. I interrupted Wulfen on the charge. I was able to one shot a las predator the turn before. 

 

 

 

Well firstly I rarely know who I'm facing. I'm either playing pick ups at the store, or random match ups in a gaming group or two. But yes, Blightspawn was in the list, he just didn't have a massive role other than preventing a charge early in the game.

 

He took a MASSIVE risk with his Death company nearing my deployment zone. I think he underestimated the Bloat Drones.

 

 

I don't know why PM walking up the board do so poorly for you. I get great success out of them. I either have them loaded up with plasma guns or blight launchers with a DP giving reroll to plague wounds. They always kill more points than they cost in the end.

 

 

In any game nearing 'competitve' they just don't work for me. They were beat up pretty badly in this one. My favoured core just doesn't work for them. My Daemon Princee and Bloat drones are loooong gone in the opponent's zone while the ooompa loompa's are still bobbling around mid board, advancing with their 5" moves, and plinging off the odd numpty with their Blightlaunchers. 

 

The DP gives far better results with units that can guard, and be extremely offensive on far reaching units. 

That's just me I guess. If you like Plaguemarines in competitive 40K, by all means keep on truckin'. I can only speak for myself, but I'm a big believer in big metal boxes for PMs.

 

Frankly the only unit in our army I don't find much success with are poxwalkers.

 

On that we certainly agree. :tu:

I didn't have a competitive agenda in this one. Here I hoped to go away from my own combinations that work for me in ITC, and otherwise just to go back to a time where a lot of this stuff worked in daily fun play... and some of it does. 

 

I even tried the new Plague Spewer option on the DP, which was really fun. It feels a bit too pricey for a S5 flamer, but you can make the combo with Poxbringer aura's work sometimes with the old Bloat Drones and the DP with spewer which is certainly fun! 

Frankly the only unit in our army I don't find much success with are poxwalkers.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea walking marines isn't super great unfortunately.

 

At the tournament I was at last weekend, the only list with footman Ines that placed well was deathwatch with primaris mixed unit plasma spam.

 

The thousand sons lists were 29 tzaangor enlightened and Daemon Prince crew, not a marine in sight. Any pure marine list featuring marines were in the bottom of the rankings

[Prot]

Same here. We had one guy do well but it was the very typical Raven Guard list.

 

"Tzaangors" are why I gave up on Thousand Sons. Super cool characters/HQ's and then it thins out into AoS repackaging armies. (I have no problem playing it, I just personally love the Thousand Sons "ASTARTES" background more than I like goats.)

 

Thankfully Death Guard have enough options to do some fun stuff on the table and still feel like Death Guard.

[Kangaaxx]

Prot, i am in the same case that you, i want my army to stay Death Guard as much it is possible. But it is not always simple.

For example when i play pure death guard in my gaming group, i am lacking a lot dakka ( bolters sucks on plague marines...) and anti vehicle weapon.

 

My next attempt its to take things that work well for chaos and add this to my death guard. Like a batallion of 30 plaguebearers + 2X3 nurglings, Scrivener and Poxbringer.

I will also add a 40 cultist bomb to the mix with sorcerer from CSM codex I like also obliterators.

 

My death guard batallion will be the usual Msu squad of plague marine with drones/crawler. Or maybe the biologus/ or 2 foul blightspawn with close combat marine.

 

Plagues marines, hoard of daemons of nurgle with cultists, i can keep the spirit of the Death Guard that i like in the first artworks.

[Hannibal]

 

 

Quickly the dysfunction set in on -some- of these:

 

- Myphitic Blighthauler. Love this model, it helped protect Plaguemarines for one turn.

 

- Lord in Termie armour (why the heck did they not fix D.R. on this guy?)+ 5 Blightlords with combimelta (my fave) and Flail. - They did really good, and went toe to toe with Captain Smash and friends.

 

 It definitely was refreshing to get solid mileage out of the Blightlords.

 

So why no Blightlords centric list in the future?

 

I am not a tournament player, but I regularly fight against some. And What I think works to some degree is a Nurgle Daemon Battalion mixed with a "Plague Wing", ie a DG Detachment consisting of Blightlords. At least I have a lot of fun with this setup.

 

You´re able to run a bunch of Daemon Princess if you like or you can go with some more supporting charcaters. I like to field 1-2 Great Unclean Ones due to those lovely models, but once again I´m not the one who maxes out his lists.

 

I think with Nurglings (and to some degree Plaguebearers) you can get a lot of board presence, Daemon Princes do the heavy lifting in melee while Blightlords either care for vehicles or cheap chaff (either meltaguns or Bolters). In addition such an army is rather unique these days and should be one sweet looking force.