What units do you find effective currently?

[Servant of Dante]

Edit: yes I’m aware we’re getting a new mode line and a codex next year :D

 

Edit2: I also intend to use all of the beta rules in the Big FAQ (I’ll almost always be playing in the 1001-2000 point range, so rule of 3)

 

Hi! I’ve not been around for a few months, and I’ve played very little 8th edition it turns out, so I wanted to ask what people thought worked well for Sisters now. I know that early on in the index period of the edition storm Bolter dominions and Celestine seemed to be the go to units, but I figured maybe people have more nuanced views now that most armies have their codicies and some time has passed.

 

Also, if anyone is willing to entertain a kind of silly question I thought of while reading a (now locked) topic elsewhere on the B&C about the merits of special characters:

 

I have come to avoid running any named characters at all, I just don’t enjoy it conceptually. That’s not to say I care what my opponents bring, honestly I enjoy seeing interesting characters on their side of the battlefield (weird, right?). I also don’t like any unit that doesn’t have the Adepta Sororitas keyword or Repentia (some of you have probably heard me talk about that, but no need to get into it here). The exception I make is I will run a Ministorum Priest or 2.

 

TL;DR: I don’t run Repentia, Celestine, Jacobus or any units without the Adepta Sororitas keyword except for Priests.

 

Given all that, would you recommend anything different than what is good in a general Ministorum list with Celestine?

 

Thanks for the feedback and hello again to my favorite part of the B&C :P

[dracpanzer]

Given all that...

 

Melta Dominions (I run them with four meltaguns and a SB on the superior in Repressors) I always bring three squads of five.

Inferno Pistol Seraphim, I bring three squads of five.

Heavy Bolter Retributors, drop a stormbolter on the Superior and give them an Imagifer, make the Canoness you give them for re-rolls cheap and your warlord since she will be the least exposed.

BoA Canoness and your third Canoness if you have to bring her to flesh out your detachments in a Repressor with a SB BSS and enough Imagifers to get your Seraphim AoF turn one.

Stormbolter BSS squads. I put two squads of five in Repressors and run those until I run out of points.

 

The Rule of 3 blew up the effectiveness of SB Doms. They are still better IMO when you could spam them, but now using them is sacrificing too much of your AT. Deploy your Imagifers behind your Vehicles close enough to AoF your Inferno Pistol Seraphim turn one with filler BSS squads clearing your flanks Deepstrike zones. Retributor base in the back, rush your Doms and Seraphim, turn one load up your Imagifers and roll forward with the BoA and your BSS as a second wave.

 

The Rule of 3 is great...............

[Beams]

Seraphim with Celestine. Any kind of Dominions. Cannonesses with eviscerators and inferno/plasma pistols.

[Montford]

Immolators armed with the Immolation Flamers. Assault 2D6  range 12", so they can move 13-18 inches and reach out another foot. I have found most players don't expect it.

 

Heavy Bolter Retributor squad with a bare-bones Canoness and Imagifier nearby. That unit was a major factor in almost every game I've had in 8th edition.

 

Imagifiers. One of our greatest advantages are Acts of Faith so capitalize on it.

 

Inferno pistol Seraphim. I made an IG player hate them as they kept eating up his tanks. And I learned never to bother placing them into deep strike unless you are trying to bluff your opponent into spreading his units out. I find that I can get them wherever they need to go just fine deploying them normally.

[Atrus]

Basically, anything that isnt Celestian, Dialogus or Hospitaller, is effective. (You dont like Repentia so no need to mention them).

 

BSS are great meat and 3 veg backbone to the force. Sprinkle in everything else for flavour.

[Servant of Dante]

Ok, well I have the models for 3 melta Dominions squads (but only 2 SBs) 

 

I have my HB Rets and my Imagifiers. I also have 5 heavy flamers laying around from when Command Squads were a thing, because I thought it was fun to have 5 heavy flamers and my canoness in an immolator toast 1 unit every 3 games

 

I have my Evicerator Canoness (but she has a bolt pistol and she's painted so that's probably not changing ). Also, my backline canoness gets a power sword because the only character in my order of arguably high enough rank and skill to work as a Canoness has a power sword.

 

I actually tend to run the Canoness with Celestians, because they can take wounds for the Canoness in close combat and are moderately less useless than a BSS in close combat, for a moderate increase in price. They go in my "command immolator" (it's got a fancy icon on top), so I only run 5, so I don't waste more than 10 or so extra points on that.

 

I'm loathe to cut the hands off of my Seraphim, so I tend to run them with hand flamers. Besides, being the fanboy I am, I also run them in a unit of 10 with a Superior with a Power Sword and a Plasma Pistol. Like any good servant of the Emperor I refuse to accept that they're just bad when used that way. In any case, since I attempt to use them against infantry (because by the Emperor they should be able to do that and I'm just going to keep trying (definition of insanity, I know)) hand flamers make more sense probably. Anything they have a reasonable chance of hurting is going to also get hurt by hand flamers.

 

With that in mind, here's a 1750 point list, also limited by the models I own. I honestly think the rule of 3 is good for the game as a whole, and I don't usually feel any desire to bring more than 3 of any 1 unit anyway. Plus we're getting a new codex, which will (hopefully) address this.

 

Updated list further down

 

 

 

++ Battalion ( Adeptus Ministorum) 5CP++

 

+ HQ +

Canoness: Bolt pistol, Eviscerator 57pts

Canoness: Boltgun, Power sword 49pts

 

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad: [15] Heavy bolter 145pts

Battle Sister Squad: [10] Heavy flamer, Flamer 116pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

Battle Sister Squad: [10] Heavy flamer, flamer 116pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

 

+ Elites +

Celestian Squad [5] Power Maul (Superior), Heavy flamer, Meltagun 93pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

Imagifier: 40pts

Imagifier: 40pts

Imagifier: 40pts

 

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad: [5] Storm bolter (Superior), Meltagun x4 120pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

Dominion Squad: [5] Storm bolter (Superior), Meltagun x4 120pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

Seraphim Squad: [10] Power sword and Plasma pistol (Superior), 2 Hand flamers x2 133pts

 

+ Heavy Support +

Exorcist: 135pts

Retributor Squad: [5] Heavy bolter x4 85pts

 

TOTAL: 1748pts

 

The evicerator canoness rides with the Celestians of course. I run the 15 strong BSS simply because I like it. Like the Seraphim, it's an indulgence I make to run a unit I like even if it's bad.

 

[A.T.]

Basically, anything that isnt Celestian, Dialogus or Hospitaller, is effective. (You dont like Repentia so no need to mention them).

 

Hospitallers are handy if you can get your opponent to kill them at opportune times, if a bit gimmicky.

 

"Oh my god, you killed Kenny!" (pays a CP and takes four more shots with the meltaguns/inferno pistols)

[Beams]

Seraphim are best as a ten man squad, leader with plasma pistol. I usually just say they are inferno pistols.instead of hand Flamers, especially since they are metal models

I haven't had anyone even notice.

[Mekhitar]

There aren’t a lot of sisters units, so there isn’t a terrible lot more to say. Basically everything is good except flamers. (Unless it’s on an immolator...) Power swords are also pretty crappy due to s3. (If you take one, swap it for the blade, which is a sweeeeeet relic.) Other than that though...

 

I only have 6 sisters with meltaguns, so I tend to load them out on battle sister squads at two per, and take seraphim for fast attack. I like double battalion, but you can’t run that withou Cel and following the rule of 3, so maybe batt + outrider (if you like doms and seraphim), or batt + spearhead (if you like rets, or want your exorcists to see thbe table - they aren’t great but they aren’t completely horrible, and they could draw fire from other vehicles... idk), or a brigade if you have the bodies to fill all the squads.

 

I like brigades, with the spare points going to a sprinkling of immolators and maybe an allied avenger. You could swap that out for repressors if you run them.

[Lord Grimskull]

You want at least one powersword on a canonness somewhere for the relic blade.

 

For inferno pistols on seraphim: don't knick the hands - pick up some cheap melta-guns from AM or the top bits of Space marine Combi-weapons, cut the nozzle and side tank, and either attach them to bolt pistol seraphim, or clip the hand flamers and attach them there. If you are interested in more detail pm me :)

 

As an aside: jealous of your maul sister, I can't find any for a decent price anywhere x_X

[Beams]

As for Flamers, they average around the same effectiveness per point as stormbolters, but are *more* effective per model and conveniently bypass and -1, -2 or -3 to hit that certain armies throw out, such as eldar orAdmech's unit with their always -1 to hit that gets coupled with antoher -1 to hit at range.

 

And they are nice for overwatch.

 

I wouldn't go all Flamers, but peppered throughout or one 1-2 Dominion squads, they perform well at eliminating hordes.

[Ficinus]

Unless you really want the mobility, I'd suggest dropping one of the rhinos and putting both squads of flamer sisters in the same rhino. I've had great success running five squads of flamer, heavy flamer, combi-flamer Sisters and one squad of four heavy flamer and combi-flamer retributors in three rhinos. When the units pop out, they have so many autohits that they can put a hurting on anything less than T8 with a 3+ save or worse.

[Servant of Dante]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone!

 

Seraphim are best as a ten man squad, leader with plasma pistol. I usually just say they are inferno pistols.instead of hand Flamers, especially since they are metal models

I haven't had anyone even notice.

I’ll likely try this, points permiting

 

There aren’t a lot of sisters units, so there isn’t a terrible lot more to say. Basically everything is good except flamers. (Unless it’s on an immolator...) Power swords are also pretty crappy due to s3. (If you take one, swap it for the blade, which is a sweeeeeet relic.) Other than that though...

 

I only have 6 sisters with meltaguns, so I tend to load them out on battle sister squads at two per, and take seraphim for fast attack. I like double battalion, but you can’t run that withou Cel and following the rule of 3, so maybe batt + outrider (if you like doms and seraphim), or batt + spearhead (if you like rets, or want your exorcists to see thbe table - they aren’t great but they aren’t completely horrible, and they could draw fire from other vehicles... idk), or a brigade if you have the bodies to fill all the squads.

 

I like brigades, with the spare points going to a sprinkling of immolators and maybe an allied avenger. You could swap that out for repressors if you run them.

Flamers (especially heavy flamers) are decent against light infantry, and I like the models. Better than leaving the BSS with just bolters I think. I like a Brigade; I really don’t want to run more than 2 HQs and it offers me enough slots to run what I want. Thenrelic blade I’m also reluctant to use for fluff reasons, since the newest fluff on it says it’s “Saint Dominica’s sword” and like special characters I don’t do counts as for special weapons, meaning it’d only feel right if I was playing Order of the Ebon Chalice.

 

You want at least one powersword on a canonness somewhere for the relic blade.

 

For inferno pistols on seraphim: don't knick the hands - pick up some cheap melta-guns from AM or the top bits of Space marine Combi-weapons, cut the nozzle and side tank, and either attach them to bolt pistol seraphim, or clip the hand flamers and attach them there. If you are interested in more detail pm me :)

 

As an aside: jealous of your maul sister, I can't find any for a decent price anywhere x_X

It was actually a bit of a gift from another frater here on the forum . . . (And yes I’m most grateful, it’s incredibly useful). I’m hesitant to do anything to my Seraphim models, so I’ll probably just proxy or use hand flamers. I talked about the Blade of Admonition above :P

 

As for Flamers, they average around the same effectiveness per point as stormbolters, but are *more* effective per model and conveniently bypass and -1, -2 or -3 to hit that certain armies throw out, such as eldar orAdmech's unit with their always -1 to hit that gets coupled with antoher -1 to hit at range.

 

And they are nice for overwatch.

 

I wouldn't go all Flamers, but peppered throughout or one 1-2 Dominion squads, they perform well at eliminating hordes.

Yeah, I figure with all the melts I have on the dominions it could be a nice complement, and decent for holding objectives.

 

Unless you really want the mobility, I'd suggest dropping one of the rhinos and putting both squads of flamer sisters in the same rhino. I've had great success running five squads of flamer, heavy flamer, combi-flamer Sisters and one squad of four heavy flamer and combi-flamer retributors in three rhinos. When the units pop out, they have so many autohits that they can put a hurting on anything less than T8 with a 3+ save or worse.

That’s a good idea! I mean personally I really like the feel of a squad of 10 even though there’s no reason to do that over 2 squads of 5 (unless you plan on AoF moving them a lot, or really need those extra 5 bolters when you AoF shoot with them). Unfortunately I only have 2 flamers, but I do have the 5 heavy flamers, so I could do 1 squad of 10 and one squad of 5 and add some HF Rets :D (I do love massed heavy flamers)

 

Edit: if I do that I’ll have to replace one of the BSS HFs since I only have 5, maybe I’ll use my multi-melta :P

[Ficinus]

I actually didn't notice that they were ten nun squads, so that's my bad. I haven't run squads of ten in a rhino since the start of the edition, but I just feel like they won't have enough of a punch to hurt things given how flamers can no longer reliably get huge numbers of hits. (And I used two squads of heavy flamer retributors last edition so I have plenty in my collection).

[Montford]

If you ever make yourself or buy a Repressor but don't have many Dominions, then try a placing a Retributor Squad with four heavy flamers inside. :)

[Atrus]

Easybake Repressor Oven is fun times and its surprising what it can outright delete. Debatably points efficient, but great to see your oponents face when it gets in range.

Had a game a few months back where The Oven took out 2 vindicators, a lazerback and the marines inside.

[Montford]

Easybake? LOL I may have to adopt that term! We were calling it a rolling lava fountain. :)

[Daimhin]

Are you looking for a list that is "competitive" to enter, say, LVO or similar? Or are you looking for a "competitive" list to play casually against mates? They are very different things. 

 

I prefer playing a "strong casual" list - and it has a more fluffy feel. However, you won't win a serious tournament with it.

 

Case in point is melta Dominions in a Repressor. They are a really cool choice and really thematic, but in competition play they are completely sub-par. They don't deal well against hordes, nor against layers of invulns, and they are too easy to screen against. If you're facing 300 Orc Boyz or 7 Flyrants you don't want to be spending 250pts on this unit!

 

Given that you're not running Celestine, I don't believe you're looking at a competitive tournament list anyway, but I wanted to say this as a huge amount of the information people give out as fact for competitive sisters would get ruined at high level tables.  

[taikishi]

Like Daimhin said, if you're playing truly competitive (ITC, etc.) then Celestine, the twins and probably the Blade of Admonition are "must includes" regardless of your feelings on them if running pure Sisters. Celestine and the twins because their unit is so strong and the guaranteed AoF every round, the blade just for some additional punch (plus it only costs 4 points).

 

I personally hate the Rule of Three because I think it's the wrong fix, especially since it's so unevenly applied across all armies and because only a handful of units were the actual problem to begin with. Those should have been the units restricted, not every non-Troop/DT choice. Unfortunately, it's going to end up becoming part of the actual rules as a band-aid fix rather than fixing the actual problem.

 

Edit:

 

Looked at the list you posted.

 

* If you can find the  points, I'd recommend the Dominion superiors with combi-meltas, since the melta is no longer one shot and you can fire both barrels at -1 to-hit if needed. Or throwing the storm bolters in the BSSs.

* Celestians really aren't worth the points; they're just a glorified BSS. You're better off saving the points by taking another BSS.

* The Exorcist is far from what it used to be. It doesn't have the damage output to be a tank or MC killer and is better used as a heavy infantry/T5 killer (Terminators, bikes, Aggressors, Mega Nobs, etc).

* The Power Sword on the superior probably isn't worth the points because of her S3 and only characters can take the Blade of Admonition to boot.

[Servant of Dante]

I actually didn't notice that they were ten nun squads, so that's my bad. I haven't run squads of ten in a rhino since the start of the edition, but I just feel like they won't have enough of a punch to hurt things given how flamers can no longer reliably get huge numbers of hits. (And I used two squads of heavy flamer retributors last edition so I have plenty in my collection).

The big issue is that I’m running out of special and heavy weapons to put on the table :P I have a few extra meltaguns and heavy flamers that aren’t in that last but that’s about it. A unit doesn’t have to kill a ton necessarily to sit around and hold an objective so I figure the 10 model BSS is the best I can do if I don’t have the models to do more special/heavy weapons.

 

Are you looking for a list that is "competitive" to enter, say, LVO or similar? Or are you looking for a "competitive" list to play casually against mates? They are very different things.

 

I prefer playing a "strong casual" list - and it has a more fluffy feel. However, you won't win a serious tournament with it.

 

Case in point is melta Dominions in a Repressor. They are a really cool choice and really thematic, but in competition play they are completely sub-par. They don't deal well against hordes, nor against layers of invulns, and they are too easy to screen against. If you're facing 300 Orc Boyz or 7 Flyrants you don't want to be spending 250pts on this unit!

 

Given that you're not running Celestine, I don't believe you're looking at a competitive tournament list anyway, but I wanted to say this as a huge amount of the information people give out as fact for competitive sisters would get ruined at high level tables.

I want to play the strongest list I can, but there are things I just won’t do. Such as run Celestine. I’m fine with having the list be less powerful, I just want to optimize it within the restrictions I have (and I do tend to restrict what I can run based on what I want to run). If I use this list it’ll just be at an LGS, but make no mistake, I could be going to the biggest of tournaments and I’d still leave Celestine in the box, and I’d have fun taking my losses anyway :P

 

Like Daimhin said, if you're playing truly competitive (ITC, etc.) then Celestine, the twins and probably the Blade of Admonition are "must includes" regardless of your feelings on them if running pure Sisters. Celestine and the twins because their unit is so strong and the guaranteed AoF every round, the blade just for some additional punch (plus it only costs 4 points).

 

I personally hate the Rule of Three because I think it's the wrong fix, especially since it's so unevenly applied across all armies and because only a handful of units were the actual problem to begin with. Those should have been the units restricted, not every non-Troop/DT choice. Unfortunately, it's going to end up becoming part of the actual rules as a band-aid fix rather than fixing the actual problem.

 

Edit:

 

Looked at the list you posted.

 

* If you can find the points, I'd recommend the Dominion superiors with combi-meltas, since the melta is no longer one shot and you can fire both barrels at -1 to-hit if needed. Or throwing the storm bolters in the BSSs.

* Celestians really aren't worth the points; they're just a glorified BSS. You're better off saving the points by taking another BSS.

* The Exorcist is far from what it used to be. It doesn't have the damage output to be a tank or MC killer and is better used as a heavy infantry/T5 killer (Terminators, bikes, Aggressors, Mega Nobs, etc).

* The Power Sword on the superior probably isn't worth the points because of her S3 and only characters can take the Blade of Admonition to boot.

The issue with combi weapons is that I like to play wysiwyg and I’ve also not taken the time to convert any of my Superiors :P Otherwise it sounds like a great idea.

 

10 points for 5 extra attacks, 3+ WS and the ability to take wounds for my Canoness in melee seems worth it to me. Switching them over to a BSS would net me exactly 1 more body I don’t need in a different unit (since the Canoness is with them in an immolator). I really don’t see those 10 points as wasted, since I’m running a close combat Canoness. I feel like the “Celestians aren’t worth it” is a knee jerk reaction, and of course a squad of 10 is more expensive, but I’m curious why you think this 10 points (a very small amount) is really worthless, given the context.

 

If I had more heavy Bolter retributors to take in place of the Exprcist I would, but I only have 5 sisters with heavy bolters. Plus the exorcist looks cool and can perform moderately well (if not up to its 135 point price tag).

 

The power sword on the Seraphim Superior? Well you’re probably right (she hasn’t killed anything but maybe a grot or 2 this edition) but I’m probably going to leave it there because it’s on the model and I like it there (Seraphim in close combat I find are absolutely terrible, but I keep doing it anyway). If I do give anyone the Blade of Admonition, it would probably be the Seraphim Superior anyway :P

[Servant of Dante]

 

++ Battalion ( Adeptus Ministorum) 5CP++

 

+ HQ +

Canoness: Bolt pistol, Eviscerator 57pts

Canoness: Boltgun, Power sword 49pts

 

+ Troops +

 

Battle Sister Squad: [11] Heavy bolter 109pts

 

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Flamer 71pts

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Storm bolter 64pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

 

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Flamer 71pts

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Storm bolter 64pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

 

+ Elites +

Celestian Squad [5] Power Maul (Superior), Heavy flamer, Meltagun 93pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

     Canoness goes here, Celestians take hits for here in melee

Imagifier: 40pts

Imagifier: 40pts

Imagifier: 40pts

 

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad: [5] Meltagun x4 118pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

Dominion Squad: [5] Meltagun x4 118pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

Seraphim Squad: [10] Power sword and Plasma pistol (Superior), 2 Hand flamers x2 133pts

 

+ Heavy Support +

Exorcist: 135pts

Retributor Squad: [5] Heavy bolter x4 85pts

 

TOTAL: 1746pts

 

As someone who's used to 7E more than 8E, those rhino loadouts look really nasty

I tried removing the Exorcist, but the  only thing I could replace it with is another Melta Dominion squad, and I wouldn't have a transport for them, so I'd have to change one Immolator to a Rhino and have 2 Dominion squads share. I figure that the extra range and coolness of the model make leaving it as-is an ok option (maybe). However, it might just be better to do the 8 meltas in a Rhino I could add a few more bodies to my blob BSS

 

Edit: Actually, I do have a generic marine rhino laying around that's half painted red for my Blood Angels . . . 

[Ficinus]

If you want support for your canoness, it would probably make sense to replace the Celestians with a canoness with eviscerator and a priest (or yet another canoness with power maul). The second canoness also gives you five more wounds but instead of giving you ten weak attacks with no AP and 1 damage, it gives you four more attacks with decent strength, -4AP and D3 damage.

 

I usually run tag team canonesses (one eviscerator, one Blade of Admonition) with a priest backed up by either Arco-flags or DCA and they are nasty.

[Servant of Dante]

If you want support for your canoness, it would probably make sense to replace the Celestians with a canoness with eviscerator and a priest (or yet another canoness with power maul). The second canoness also gives you five more wounds but instead of giving you ten weak attacks with no AP and 1 damage, it gives you four more attacks with decent strength, -4AP and D3 damage.

 

I usually run tag team canonesses (one eviscerator, one Blade of Admonition) with a priest backed up by either Arco-flags or DCA and they are nasty.

So like this?

 

++ Battalion ( Adeptus Ministorum) 5CP++

 

+ HQ +

Canoness: Bolt pistol, Eviscerator 57pts

Canoness: Boltgun, Power maul49pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

 

Canoness: Boltgun, Power sword 49pts

 

+ Troops +

 

Battle Sister Squad: [12] Heavy bolter 118pts

 

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Flamer 71pts

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Storm bolter 64pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

 

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Flamer 71pts

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Storm bolter 64pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

 

+ Elites +

Ministorum Priest: Laspistol, Chainsword 35pts

          Goes with 2 Canonesses in Immolator, his loadout is just what I have

Imagifier: 40pts

Imagifier: 40pts

Imagifier: 40pts

 

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad: [5] Meltagun x4 118pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

Dominion Squad: [5] Meltagun x4 118pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

Seraphim Squad: [10] Power sword and Plasma pistol (Superior), 2 Hand flamers x2 133pts

 

+ Heavy Support +

Exorcist: 135pts

Retributor Squad: [5] Heavy bolter x4 85pts

 

TOTAL: 1746pts

[Servant of Dante]

Thanks for all the help so far, even I can tell this list is already a lot better than what I came up with on my own

 

If anyone has any other suggestions I'm happy to hear them (but I'm not changing the Seraphim squad )

 

What could I replace the Exorcist with? I don't have any more FA slots, although with 3 Canonesses I could do Battalion and either Vanguard or Outrider which would open up more.

[Ficinus]

I'd go double eviscerator canoness rather than one eviscerator and one maul. The maul canoness was a suggestion to replace the priest (since she's only 14 points more), but I forgot about the rule of three.