What units do you find effective currently?

[Servant of Dante]

I don't actually have another evicerator Canoness modeled, and plus the one that has one would look less unique if I did :P the evicerator she has is something of a relic to the Order. So on account of fluff and laziness, I'll probably stick with the maul :D

[Purifying Tempest]

I had a big long list of my observations but... meh.  Deleted it all :)

 

1) Dominions are great.  I usually bring mine with meltaguns and Immolators.  I think the Immolator is a GREAT tank made even better with a scout move.

 

2) Serpahim are fantastic targets for Acts of Faith, those Infernus Pistols, even in melee, can scare the pants off of an opponent.

 

3) Canoness with the relic blade is a silly good counter-charge unit.  Silly good.

 

4) 10 is good, but I usually run in the 7-8 range for units I add more models to.

 

5) Narrative is fun to play around with, especially when you can use it in such a way to add different forces into the army.  Sisters codex is small, and likely won't get a ton bigger next year.  I'm thinking GK size.  Allies can add a lot, especially if the "rule of 3" starts to feel restrictive.

 

6) Stormbolters are so nice.  Especially on BSSs.

 

My truncated list of experiences, and I do not play competitively... but I do try to be a good solid test against my friends.  We probably play more competitive than we like to admit :)  But at the end of the day, we try to honor narrative more than win:loss ratios.

[taikishi]

 

ave Celestine in the box, and I’d have fun taking my losses anyway

 

Like Daimhin said, if you're playing truly competitive (ITC, etc.) then Celestine, the twins and probably the Blade of Admonition are "must includes" regardless of your feelings on them if running pure Sisters. Celestine and the twins because their unit is so strong and the guaranteed AoF every round, the blade just for some additional punch (plus it only costs 4 points).

 

I personally hate the Rule of Three because I think it's the wrong fix, especially since it's so unevenly applied across all armies and because only a handful of units were the actual problem to begin with. Those should have been the units restricted, not every non-Troop/DT choice. Unfortunately, it's going to end up becoming part of the actual rules as a band-aid fix rather than fixing the actual problem.

 

Edit:

 

Looked at the list you posted.

 

* If you can find the points, I'd recommend the Dominion superiors with combi-meltas, since the melta is no longer one shot and you can fire both barrels at -1 to-hit if needed. Or throwing the storm bolters in the BSSs.

* Celestians really aren't worth the points; they're just a glorified BSS. You're better off saving the points by taking another BSS.

* The Exorcist is far from what it used to be. It doesn't have the damage output to be a tank or MC killer and is better used as a heavy infantry/T5 killer (Terminators, bikes, Aggressors, Mega Nobs, etc).

* The Power Sword on the superior probably isn't worth the points because of her S3 and only characters can take the Blade of Admonition to boot.

The issue with combi weapons is that I like to play wysiwyg and I’ve also not taken the time to convert any of my Superiors Otherwise it sounds like a great idea.

 

10 points for 5 extra attacks, 3+ WS and the ability to take wounds for my Canoness in melee seems worth it to me. Switching them over to a BSS would net me exactly 1 more body I don’t need in a different unit (since the Canoness is with them in an immolator). I really don’t see those 10 points as wasted, since I’m running a close combat Canoness. I feel like the “Celestians aren’t worth it” is a knee jerk reaction, and of course a squad of 10 is more expensive, but I’m curious why you think this 10 points (a very small amount) is really worthless, given the context.

 

If I had more heavy Bolter retributors to take in place of the Exprcist I would, but I only have 5 sisters with heavy bolters. Plus the exorcist looks cool and can perform moderately well (if not up to its 135 point price tag).

 

The power sword on the Seraphim Superior? Well you’re probably right (she hasn’t killed anything but maybe a grot or 2 this edition) but I’m probably going to leave it there because it’s on the model and I like it there (Seraphim in close combat I find are absolutely terrible, but I keep doing it anyway). If I do give anyone the Blade of Admonition, it would probably be the Seraphim Superior anyway

 

 

You can't put the Blade of Admonition on the Seraphim Superior; you have to give it to an Adepta Sororitas character with a Power Sword. Further, GW has ruled the Geminae Suprae are ineiligible, leaving you giving it to Canonesses and that's it. Shame "close combat weapon" is no longer a generic option as opposed to chainsword because then you could just say the power sword is a regular sword and get +1 attack out of it.

 

Also, I was suggesting giving the storm bolters to your superiors since you can do that but this works, too

 

Finally, Rule of 3 means at some point you're going to have to take Celestine OR Jacobus (or both) since you're restricted to three Canoness in a 1001-2000 point game (especially if you grab an additional detachment) and Jacobus is awful; he's overpriced by 65 points! This only goes up to "Rule of Four" in a 2001-3000 point game. This is what I meant about it being applied unevenly. Space Marines have, what, six different data sheets for captains that they can bring three of EACH.

 

Which brings up two other things:

 

* Your battalion isn't an Adepta Sororitas detachment because of the Priest, it's an Adeptus Ministorum detachment. This means you can't use the Martyrdom or Purity of Faith stratagems, can't bring the Blade of Admonition and your BSS don't get Objective secured; Adeptus Ministorum detachments aren't listed in Chapter Approved as eligible for these things.

 

* If you want to keep the priest and gain access to ObSec and the stratagems, you have to do one of the following:

a. split him off into a Vanguard detachment (which will require another HQ choice) with at least two of the Imagifiers; this nets you +1CP

b. bring him in an Auxiliary Support detachment by himself, losing one CP in doing so

 

By splitting him off of the battalion you now have at least one pure Adepta Sororitas detachment and regain the use of these things -- though Ob Sec is by detachment so if you bring the Vanguard DO NOT put BSSs in the detachment or they lose out on ObSec. Other units are fine, though.

 

The Vanguard option would also give you an additional two FA slots if you wished. You also have the detachments flipped - Battalion is 2HQ, 3 troops mandatory, 5CP. Brigade is 3 HQ, 6 troops, 3 FA, 3 HS, 3 Elites mandatory for 12CP.

 

As for Celestians, the extra attack is almost meaningless. They're only marginally better than BSS in close combat and can really only take on things a BSS can on the charge -- which is to say, not much.

[Servant of Dante]

I had a big long list of my observations but... meh.  Deleted it all 

 

1) Dominions are great.  I usually bring mine with meltaguns and Immolators.  I think the Immolator is a GREAT tank made even better with a scout move.

 

2) Serpahim are fantastic targets for Acts of Faith, those Infernus Pistols, even in melee, can scare the pants off of an opponent.

 

3) Canoness with the relic blade is a silly good counter-charge unit.  Silly good.

 

4) 10 is good, but I usually run in the 7-8 range for units I add more models to.

 

5) Narrative is fun to play around with, especially when you can use it in such a way to add different forces into the army.  Sisters codex is small, and likely won't get a ton bigger next year.  I'm thinking GK size.  Allies can add a lot, especially if the "rule of 3" starts to feel restrictive.

 

6) Stormbolters are so nice.  Especially on BSSs.

 

My truncated list of experiences, and I do not play competitively... but I do try to be a good solid test against my friends.  We probably play more competitive than we like to admit  But at the end of the day, we try to honor narrative more than win:loss ratios.

I'm really happy flamer immolators are so fun this edition

 

I'll keep that in mind about Seraphim, but I'll still probably use the hand flamers

 

I have the power sword canoness in my list but may or may not give anyone the relic blade

 

I just like running a blob BSS (still annoyed they won't let me run a unit of 20 anymore, what where they afraid of? it's worse than 4 units of 5!)

 

Unfortunately I only have 2 SB Sisters

 

You didn't have to delete what you wrote that's kinda the point of this thread

 

 

 

 

~snip~

 

 

You can't put the Blade of Admonition on the Seraphim Superior; you have to give it to an Adepta Sororitas character with a Power Sword. Further, GW has ruled the Geminae Suprae are ineiligible, leaving you giving it to Canonesses and that's it. Shame "close combat weapon" is no longer a generic option as opposed to chainsword because then you could just say the power sword is a regular sword and get +1 attack out of it.

 

Also, I was suggesting giving the storm bolters to your superiors since you can do that but this works, too 

 

Finally, Rule of 3 means at some point you're going to have to take Celestine OR Jacobus (or both) since you're restricted to three Canoness in a 1001-2000 point game (especially if you grab an additional detachment) and Jacobus is awful; he's overpriced by 65 points! This only goes up to "Rule of Four" in a 2001-3000 point game. This is what I meant about it being applied unevenly. Space Marines have, what, six different data sheets for captains that they can bring three of EACH.

 

Which brings up two other things:

 

* Your battalion isn't an Adepta Sororitas detachment because of the Priest, it's an Adeptus Ministorum detachment. This means you can't use the Martyrdom or Purity of Faith stratagems, can't bring the Blade of Admonition and your BSS don't get Objective secured; Adeptus Ministorum detachments aren't listed in Chapter Approved as eligible for these things.

 

* If you want to keep the priest and gain access to ObSec and the stratagems, you have to do one of the following:

a. split him off into a Vanguard detachment (which will require another HQ choice) with at least two of the Imagifiers; this nets you +1CP

b. bring him in an Auxiliary Support detachment by himself, losing one CP in doing so

 

By splitting him off of the battalion you now have at least one pure Adepta Sororitas detachment and regain the use of these things -- though Ob Sec is by detachment so if you bring the Vanguard DO NOT put BSSs in the detachment or they lose out on ObSec. Other units are fine, though.

 

The Vanguard option would also give you an additional two FA slots if you wished. You also have the detachments flipped - Battalion is 2HQ, 3 troops mandatory, 5CP. Brigade is 3 HQ, 6 troops, 3 FA, 3 HS, 3 Elites mandatory for 12CP.

 

As for Celestians, the extra attack is almost meaningless. They're only marginally better than BSS in close combat and can really only take on things a BSS can on the charge -- which is to say, not much.

 

Good point about the Seraphim Superior

 

Unfortunately I only have 2 SBs because they were really meh when I got my models

 

I'll never have to take Celestine or Jacobus, I could field far more than 2000 points in a Brigade with just 3 Canonesses for HQs. I'm not saying the Rule of 3 is a good fix, but it doesn't affect me overmuch and I enjoy listbuilding restrictions (even when they're unreasonable).

 

I like the idea of a Brigade, and good point about the Priest and the Stratagems. I'm willing to drop him.

 

Well, even if 7 vs 3 average S3 hits isn't a big deal, I was more interested in the Bodyguard Ability to let them take the wounds first even in melee. Maybe not worth the 10 points though. Either way I'm just doing a second Canoness now

[Servant of Dante]

So I decided I could proxy a few Inferno pistols and dropped the Exorcist. I also decided I did want to priest so I went Battalion/Vanguard. 2 of the Dominions squads have to share a Rhino, unfortunately

 

++ Battalion ( Adepta Sororitas) +5CP++

 

+ HQ +

Canoness: Inferno pistol, Eviscerator 66pts

Canoness: Boltgun, Power maul49pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

 

+ Troops +

 

Battle Sister Squad: [15] Heavy bolter 145pts

 

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Flamer 71pts

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Storm bolter 64pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

 

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Flamer 71pts

Battle Sister Squad: [5] Heavy flamer, Storm bolter 64pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

 

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad: [5] Meltagun x4 118pts

     Immolator: Immolation Flamer 103pts

 

Dominion Squad: [5] Meltagun x4 118pts

Dominion Squad: [5] Meltagun x4 118pts

     Sororitas Rhino: 75pts

 

+ Heavy Support +

Retributor Squad: [5] Heavy bolter x4 85pts

 

 

++ Vanguard ( Adeptus Ministorum) +1CP++

 

+ HQ +

Canoness: Boltgun, Power sword 49pts

 

+ Elites +

Ministorum Priest: Laspistol, Chainsword 35pts

          Goes with 2 Canonesses in Immolator, his loadout is just what I have

Imagifier: 40pts

Imagifier: 40pts

Imagifier: 40pts

 

+Fast Attack+

Seraphim Squad: [10] Power sword and Plasma pistol (Superior), 2 Inferno pistols x2 146pts

 

 

TOTAL: 1750pts, 9CP

[Daimhin]

Want a fun tactic for 10-woman seraphim? (really needs inferno pistols though)

 

Totally surround a transport 1" away and pop it. Watch every single model in the embarked unit be engulfed in a melta inferno and destroyed with no saves of any kind.  

 

 

(Don't forget you can spread out with 2" between each model. That's a 30" circle/ 9.5" diameter)

[Purifying Tempest]

I'll expand on what Daimhin said...

 

Turn 1: 

 

AoF Move from either Celestine or Army, 12" towards a high value transport... they exist occasionally.

Normal move another 12", you've crossed the no-man's land at this point.

Shoot, because guns are cool.

Charge transport or artillery tank... this is where the Seraphim can leverage "Fly" to jump over models, including the target of the charge... so surrounding a vehicle can be relatively trivial.  If you don't get enough movement out of the charge, plan for a clever set of pile-in and consolidation moves.  Regardless, wrapping a tank or a transport is a relatively trivial matter.  And your opponents will be taken off guard at first, it is really a surprise.  Afterwards, just including Seraphim in the list will force deployment choices, and then they're impacting the game before the game even begins.

 

If the unit survives until turn 2, you have an Act of Faith and a Shooting Phase with those infernus pistols to do the work here, though.

 

I've popped 200+ points of units or shut down at least that many points in tank shooting with this tactic, usually turn 1... almost every game.

[Beams]

Seraphim with their ability to move 24", shoot up to 6" and then charge an average of 7" have a 30ish" threat range turn one, and make for a hell of a lot of trouble when combined with celestine, especially if you do a wide instead dof long deployment, and/or your opponent likes tanks.

[taikishi]

 

Good point about the Seraphim Superior

 

Unfortunately I only have 2 SBs because they were really meh when I got my models

 

I'll never have to take Celestine or Jacobus, I could field far more than 2000 points in a Brigade with just 3 Canonesses for HQs. I'm not saying the Rule of 3 is a good fix, but it doesn't affect me overmuch and I enjoy listbuilding restrictions (even when they're unreasonable).

 

I like the idea of a Brigade, and good point about the Priest and the Stratagems. I'm willing to drop him.

 

Well, even if 7 vs 3 average S3 hits isn't a big deal, I was more interested in the Bodyguard Ability to let them take the wounds first even in melee. Maybe not worth the 10 points though. Either way I'm just doing a second Canoness now

 

 

Battalion, not Brigade. You have to bring at least two more Heavy Support choices and another Troops choice to meet the minimum requirements turn your most recent list into a Brigade

 

And what I'm getting at is you'll hit a point where you won't be able to build a list at all, competitive or not, without one or both of them because of Rule of X. There's only so much you can fit into each detachment, including a brigade, and at some point you'll just run out of options because of Ro3 and will either be forced to use units/characters you don't want to use or bring a detachment from another Imperium faction.

 

As for the bodyguard ability, as it's worded if your Canoness or Imagifier takes 4 wounds you have to roll six times and lose a Celestian for each 2+ you roll. It's not "if your Character is wounded, roll a die" it's "each time they lose a wound, roll a die".

 

Also, don't deep strike your Seraphim, it makes your Inferno Pistols unusable the turn they enter play.

[Beams]

Its worded that you *can* intercept a hit, not that you have to, after you've determined the roll.

 

So if you see that there's no way to save your Cannoness, you don't have to sacrifice your life and can instead keep fighting for the glory of the god Emperor.

 

(Or if you just don't like her very much)

 

Compare that to an Ogryn Bodyguard which explicitly stated that the bodyguard has to take the wound.

 

Ours is different so you don't have a squad of 100pt celestians jump in front of lascannon for a 15 pt Dialogue.

[Servant of Dante]

 

 

Good point about the Seraphim Superior

 

 

Unfortunately I only have 2 SBs because they were really meh when I got my models

 

I'll never have to take Celestine or Jacobus, I could field far more than 2000 points in a Brigade with just 3 Canonesses for HQs. I'm not saying the Rule of 3 is a good fix, but it doesn't affect me overmuch and I enjoy listbuilding restrictions (even when they're unreasonable).

 

I like the idea of a Brigade, and good point about the Priest and the Stratagems. I'm willing to drop him.

 

Well, even if 7 vs 3 average S3 hits isn't a big deal, I was more interested in the Bodyguard Ability to let them take the wounds first even in melee. Maybe not worth the 10 points though. Either way I'm just doing a second Canoness now

 

Battalion, not Brigade. You have to bring at least two more Heavy Support choices and another Troops choice to meet the minimum requirements turn your most recent list into a Brigade

 

And what I'm getting at is you'll hit a point where you won't be able to build a list at all, competitive or not, without one or both of them because of Rule of X. There's only so much you can fit into each detachment, including a brigade, and at some point you'll just run out of options because of Ro3 and will either be forced to use units/characters you don't want to use or bring a detachment from another Imperium faction.

 

As for the bodyguard ability, as it's worded if your Canoness or Imagifier takes 4 wounds you have to roll six times and lose a Celestian for each 2+ you roll. It's not "if your Character is wounded, roll a die" it's "each time they lose a wound, roll a die".

 

Also, don't deep strike your Seraphim, it makes your Inferno Pistols unusable the turn they enter play.

Yes, I’m aware my most recent list is using a battalion, that’s why it says battalion in the list :P I also do know the requirements for a Brigade, which is why I decided not to do one in the end. I can read a force org chart :D

 

There would be a point where you’d run out of units, but I bet you could get above 3000 points before that, at which point you’d have another Canoness (rule of 3 goes to rule of 4) and could do double battalion instead of single brigade. At what point value would it be impossible for me to bring anlist without bringing units I don’t want to? Maybe exactly 3000 points? I’d have to check. The point is pretty much academic to me, if there is a point value I couldn’t play at, I just wouldn’t play at that point value :D I get that that’s not god from a competitive standpoint, but it doesn’t bother me overmuch.

[Purifying Tempest]

So going back to the long list of stuff I deleted for ya, Dante :)

 

These are strictly my experience, and my experiences are tainted heavily with my preferences and play style, so don't take any of this as gospel.

 

My #1 unit is probably an Immolation Flamer Immolator.  This thing hammers chaff.  Most chaff units in 8th Edition are flimsy with 3T and generally a 5 or worse armor.  Immolators rip through this.  I can usually open up the second rank of an opponent through the careful placement of my big flamers on turn one.

 

#2 unit is definitely Celestine.  First and second turn play HYPER aggressive with her.  The flamer sword is another thorn in the side along the with the Immolators.  Her threat range is gigantic, and her melee can threaten just about anything in the game.  A wise opponent has to play around the threat range that Celestine and Seraphim can generate.  Which usually means from deployment... you're in a more aggressive position.  Your opponent deploys more conservatively, and these units are making points up before the game even starts.  Geminae are iffy.  There's times I enjoy having them, there's times they become liabilities.  They're usually worth the 25 points each, but only if your army as a whole has the 25/50 points to spare them.

 

#3 Battle Sister Squads.  I've tinkered a lot with these girls.  They've never done anything that is just outright amazing, but they tend to not let me down and can take control of games if you're playing Maelstrom or Chapter Approved style missions where in-game scoring are a thing.  With all of the up-field pressure you can generate, these girls simply muddle around the middle of the board and throw suppressive fire over my front lines.  Doubling that fire inside of 12 inches is a bonus.  They usually finish off chaff and counter-charge units that are scrambling around in the aftermath.  I've played with Combi-flamer, Flamer, and Heavy Flamer BSS squads, and I wasn't impressed.  Again, they never let me down, but they've yet to really make me go "wow, this is definitely worth the extra 33 points (7+9+17)".  I think I'm just about to move on to full Storm Bolters across my BSS squads, as you can take up to 3 per squad.

 

#4 Melta Dominions.  So first off, Dominions of any type grant the Immolators the scout move.  Engaging Immolation Flamers on turn 1 is a really big deal.  They put so much heat (pun intended :) ) on the opponent when those flamers open up turn one.  They deny more space closer to your opponent's deployment zone, as well.  I've had opponents who had trouble deploying into THEIR OWN DEPLOYMENT ZONE on turn 1 with their deep strikers.  Between Seraphim, Dominions, and Immolators, you can box out a lot of space and dictate where deep strikers have access to.  The Meltaguns just seem good on Dominions, too.  Especially given that I have 2 Immolators (and other stuff I use that may not be entirely Sororitas :) ) pushing up the field.  The Melta Dominions typically become surgical... popping out turn 2 or 3 and then throwing some melta shots on a reeling opponent.  They usually die that turn, so I am usually not in a rush to get them out.  I want to make sure that I am getting a good trade when they pop out of their ride.  Also, the Immolation Flamer REALLY dissuades units from assaulting the immolator... which means wrapping my Dominions and killing them in the transport is pretty difficult.  It has yet to happen, so cheers to that.  If a unit is big enough to wrap an Immolator, chances are it is chaff-y enough to get ripped by the overwatch.

 

#5 Heavy Bolter Retributors.  I just listed off 3 "in your face" threats that have to be answered turn 1.  And it isn't soft, squishy infantry... it comes in volume and resilience thanks to the Immolators and Celestine.  Heavy Bolter Retributors give me that reach into the deployment zone of the opponent with the ability to stay around my own back field to control objectives.  I usually camp an Imagifier with them for the extra shooting phase or the healing, but this is not always the case, as the 50/50 Imagifier usually lets me down.  If I'm out of good uses for Acts of Faith on my front line (say turn 2-3 when my frontal assault gets worn down), these girls always give me a good out with the Act.

 

#6 Inferno Pistol Seraphim.  You would think these would be higher... but I find that they are really just a bully piece most of the time.  They're the apex hunters in a "piece trade" game.  They have a few good uses, but savvy deployment and even list composition can play havoc with their effectiveness.  They're great for popping things like Dreadnoughts, Helbrutes, artillery tanks in IG.  They are also VERY Act of Faith stingy.  You pretty much will look at donating 1 AoF per Seraphim Squad per turn.  It feels pretty restrictive, especially when they can easily outpace Imagifiers, and typically hunt things of a different class than Celestine.  Hiding them in melee is fun, especially with inept transports and tanks.  Especially if you can wrap the target to prevent disengage movement.  Even more especially if your opponent doesn't bring counter-charge units (even if they do in many cases, as the positioning nightmare they cause at that point...).  Overall to the game, I find Seraphim don't do much past turn 1 unless your opponent just cannot deal with them.  If they cannot assault the Seraphim to get them off of whatever target they've latched onto, it is going to be a long go for them.  But once the acts of faith stop coming in, and their movement becomes normal... and they don't shoot those pistols twice... their killiness drops a good bit, and they usually just get dragged down model by model.

 

#7 The Canoness.  This girl works hard.  I find Inferno Pistols are good.  Eviscerators are... okayish, but not usually worth the 12 points.  Power sword is great if you upgrade it to the Blade of Admonition.  Other than that, 45 points stock for a reroll aura for 2-3 squads of BSS roaming the middle of the table, threatening any leftovers coming at them with the Blade of Admonition.  Outside of "mandatory to unlock detachments", though, I typically don't find much use for them.

 

All of these bring me to the 1000-1200 point range... where I think the actual muscle of the Sisters army starts to slide.  Scaling up with a Sisters army seems to be either 1) jamming in things to make the points work, or 2) saturating your army with units, that eventually hurts the overall performance.  More specifically... the power level (board presence and capability, not the goofy number than does nothing) of each unit you add just does not seem to keep up with the power level of stuff being added to opposing armies.  This is why I say that the codex depth is a problem, much in the same way the GK have it.  All I can do is continually present the same threats, with less support to make those threats effective (no AoF support, no psykers, weak force multiplication, etc.).

 

That's when I brought in the Imperial Guard (read as: Sister Acolytes, fighting as their rite of passage to wear the power armor of the Sororitas!).  Infantry Squads are borderline broken... and add a lot more ability to spread out in your deployment zone and across the middle of the battlefield.  A Company Commander and do things like Move, Move, Move, or First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire.  These things simulate Acts of Faith from a much weaker source.  I also go Catachan, and it has given me some useful tricks (Burn Them Out!), as well as making my Hellhounds truly intimidating.  Speaking of Hellhounds.  A Catachan Hellhound with a Heavy Flamer is actually scarier on its own than an Immolator.  It just has no gooey filling, and in fact... has a self-destruct button that is easily accessible.  These are usually my mid-game.  Immolators flank and look for an exposed position to hit with the Dominions, using the scout movement to start forming a kill pocket.  Hellhounds take the middle and press aggressively towards the opponent, threatening them with 18" flamers and also making solid use of their 4+ to explode (which plays a lot more tactically with a CP reroll available).  This is the second half of my front line, bringing 4 Immolation Flamer-style weapons to bear turn 1.  Chaff burns like the heretics they are.

 

I'm also currently looking at getting a Hawkshroud Valiant to play as the centerpiece of the army.  It adds a lot more area denial, especially with the House Stratagem, and the Conflagration Canon is just too synergistic with my army that I cannot pass it up.

 

Regardless, my army typically comes out in 2-3 waves.  The first wave is the fast attack wave of Dominions, Seraphim, Immolators, and Hellhounds.  They are then backed up by BSS squads (with Flamers or Stormbolter depending on my preference that day) and Infantry Squads.  Then usually in the far back is the Retributors and occasionally the odd Exorcist.  The Exorcist usually only makes an appearance when I am trying to force models into the list to bloat up to another tier of points.  Same with the Penitent Engine.  They both have great up-side, but usually struggle to find it.  In fact, they usually struggle to make up their investments in an army that can do very similar things, but often better.  I think allies provide that bit of depth that is VERY hard to find within our stunted codex.  And I don't think the new codex with the new line is going to all of a sudden take us from sub-GK diversity to suddenly Blood Angels or Dark Angels levels, I could also be dead wrong, lol.

 

Allies costs immersion, though, right?  But there's nothing in the game that says you cannot bend those allies to match your lore.  IG squads that are "count as" acolytes... something that Sisters may not have in their codex, but certainly would have in lore, you're not just given your vestments and tools without first being deemed worthy of the station.  There's nothing to say that some wack job convent with a passion for... burning things... didn't go out and have the troop compartments of their Immolators replaced with extra fuel tanks, thus making something closer to a Hellhound than an actual Immolator.  And I am entirely certain that somewhere in the galaxy, some Household became just the flavor of zealots that share a bunch of the same ideals of any of the Orders Militant and decided the best way to earn their way into the favor of the God Emperor was to lend their machines of war to the cause of doing the Emperor's work (with an equally nutty pilot, of course).

 

Yes... I've become very attached to my force, their lore, and the way they play on the tabletop.  Lighting some filthy xenos player up with hordes of flamers and seeing that really sunken look of despair in their eyes... yes... I'm sure it brings to me the same glee it would my forces, if they were truly a thing.  :)

 

My two dollars and two cents to a very deep question.

 

tl/dr: now you see why I erased it all earlier... in favor of something more... direct? :)

[Servant of Dante]

I enjoyed reading that, thanks :D I think it's a well thought out bit of tactics. Maybe it's just because I tend to fall flat in the tactical department (I usually end up throwing each unit at what looks like a good target for them and hoping things work out . . . ). I think Sisters allied with actual IG is very fluffy, I just don't really want to invest in an IG collection right now :D 

 

The delayed disembarking of Dominions and the uses of Seraphim were the big things I thought were interesting, plus deployment shenanigans, I never pay enough attention to deployment and I don't think my opponents do either. 

 

I bring an Evicerator canoness because there's still part of me that's a Blood Angel and needs to get into melee and kill things :D

 

If you're interested in Order fluff [insert advert for the link in my sig]. It's basically just fluff, I've never been much of a painter.

[taikishi]

I'm really not even talking competitive at this point, though. Narrative play and Open play don't care, just bring what you want as long as it's on the data slate IIRC. It's matched play where the restrictions kick in. It also isn't just "rule of X" that's eventually says "hey, we don't have enough choices". There's also the problems of "each detachment doesn't have enough choices" as well as trying to get units to support one another properly.

 

Here's a sample 2K force without Celestine and obeying detachment restrictions (max 3 detachments, Rule of 3):

 

Brigade

3 Canoness [182 pts]

-one with Combi-plasma/bolter to support the Retributors

- one with Eviscerator/plasma pistol

-one with Blade of Admonition/inferno pistol

 

3 Imagifiers [120 pts]

 

6 BSS each with with 4 BSS, Sister Superior, 3 storm bolters, chainsword on superior [306 pts]

 

2 Dominion squads each with 4 Dominions, Dominion Superior, 2 meltaguns, combi-melta, chainsword on superior [206 pts]

 

2 Seraphim squads each with 6 Seraphim, Serpahim Superior, 4 inferno pistols, plasma pistol on superior [240 pts]

 

3 Retributor squads each with 4 Retributors, Retributor Superior, 4 heavy bolters, combi-plasma, chainsword on superior [400 pts]

 

2 Repressors each with an additional storm bolter [224 pts]

 

4 Immolators each with immolation flamers and a storm bolter [420 pts]

 

-------------

 

Dominion squads deploy in one Repressor, two BSS in another, other BSS + 2 Canoness + 2 Imagifiers in Immolators, third canoness + third imagifier with Retributors

 

Problems with this list:

* the Seraphim lack support of any kind (Celestine) and using an AoF on one will cause it to out-pace the other

* the transports lack bubble wrap if you go second

* the Imagifiers do nothing until they disembark

* the two Canoness in the Immolators do nothing until they disembark

* I personally don't like the three meltas per Dominion squad but upping this to five means four meltaguns aren't firing each turn unless you disembark the Repressor

* I also don't personally like putting both Dominions in a single repressor and not having another squad for backup BUT I also don't want to spend 112 points on a Repressor that's not transporting a full squad

* because of the Morale rules I abhor the idea of 10-model squads because we have no way to mitigate morale

* only the Seraphim and Retributors can AoF turn 1

* what am I really using the BSS for besides filling a Brigade?

 

Other problems with your artificial restrictions:

* if I downgrade to a Battalion I can only get 1 additional detachment (mandatory 2HQ, maximum 3 Canoness). As things stand, I can't even take the extra detachment

* my only other Elites choices are Celestians, which we've already established as "inferior to BSS", Dialogus (not worth it), Hospitaller (same) and Priests - who work best with large units like Conscripts

* taking more Seraphim in an Outrider (moving one of the FA choices to it) is just taking more of a unit that's lacking support

* I can only take 1 more Dominion squad and one more Seraphim squad if I DO take an Outrider detachment

* a Spearhead is likely out-of-the-question because Exorcists just don't perform well with random shots and d3 wounds (kill two non-multi-wound <T5 models per turn, deal 3.8 wounds to multi-wound <T5 models per turn, deal 3 wounds to anything between T5-7) and they're the only Heavy Support choice I can take

* I can't double battalion in 2000 pts, which opens up some options, without Celestine or Jacobus (6 of each FA and HS slot instead of 5 and +4CP over an Outrider or Spearhead, +3 over both)

 

I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of right now.

 

Ultimately, it's your army, do what you want but I think these artificial restrictions are going to cause you more difficulty even building a cohesive list in the long run when you combine them with Rule of X and detachment restrictions.

[Servant of Dante]

I'd rather play a subpar army and lose than play an army I don't want to play and win. That's always been the way I've enjoyed 40k, and I've always been ok loosing more than I win (I mean you kind of have to be if you picked up Sisters in 7th edition like I did)  I appreciate the concern though

 

As I've said though, that doesn't mean I just pick random units, I want to use what is most effective (or least bad depending on your viewpoint) within the restrictions I want to play within.

 

Edit: But I've derailed my own topic  so I'll just be quiet now :P

[Beams]

So, my opponents always underestimate how much damage an eviscerators Cannoness can do, and with the +1 attack warlord and a nearby preist, she usually steam rolls everything.

 

That's without even getting into the squad she's accompanying for the preist (usually Repentia because they annihilate anything with 2 or 4+ wounds or even flaggelants which put enough Str hits to kill almost anything)

[Purifying Tempest]

On the topic of Force Org... I typically go Battalion (Celestine + Canoness).  With the "rule of 3" enforced, that gives you a second Battalion before things start getting interesting.

 

I think people playing Brigade sisters are saddling themselves with a lot of "middling" units.  Our troops are okay, but 6 squads of them may be a hefty investment purely for CP.  Our elites are... bad.  You can get them cheap, but they're pretty bad.  Heavy Support is not much better.  Retributors are good, but doubling and tripling them kicks some diminishing returns in on what they're adding to the force.

 

Outriders are good... but -4 CP for a small points saving (45 point HQ, and 3 45 point ObSec squads, if you're being minimalistic... which is just SLIGHTLY more than than a Guard BN, btw).  Given that CP are used for... uhm... Denying :)  And I typically spend 2 CP to deny 1 psychic spell... yes, I am that bad at it.  I usually find some good mileage out of the BN over the Outrider.

 

Unfortunately, after 1 BN for pure sisters... I don't think there is MUCH use for the CP.  But then again, I use allies, so I have a few more ways to use CP.

[Beams]

We have a lot of good elites, they just have a very singular purpose.

 

Priests make these all better, and give your average troop a chance in melee-

DCAssasins deal with meqs incredibly well

Arcos tear through hordes like you wouldn't believe

Repentia eat terminators, Dreadnoughts and primaris for breakfast

Imagifiers greatly increase multimelta damage and speed of movement for footsisters

[taikishi]

I'd rather play a subpar army and lose than play an army I don't want to play and win. That's always been the way I've enjoyed 40k, and I've always been ok loosing more than I win (I mean you kind of have to be if you picked up Sisters in 7th edition like I did)  I appreciate the concern though

 

As I've said though, that doesn't mean I just pick random units, I want to use what is most effective (or least bad depending on your viewpoint) within the restrictions I want to play within.

 

Edit: But I've derailed my own topic  so I'll just be quiet now

 

Again, you're missing the point. It's not about "subpar and lose". It's "the rules mean that at some point you have to take these units in order to build an army because you  ran out of choices for the slot". All it takes is for us to get one more non-Unique HQ choice and part of the conversation becomes moot. Unfortunately, that won't be "jump pack canoness" because if they handle jump packs they way they do in Marines, it's the one option that isn't a separate dataslate.

 

Edit to clarify something:

 

Part of my background is CCGs, specifically the old L5R. I get refusing to use certain things; I refused to put any cards with the following keywords in my decks probably 90% of the time:

* Shadowlands

* Ninja

* Kolat

* Maho

 

This was known as playing "pure". Sometimes it made my deck weaker, sometimes it didn't matter at all. But there's a difference in CCGs vs the current rules for 40K:

 

* in CCGs I might have a 2000 card pool to choose from. I'm limited to three (sometimes one) of a card, but I have options

* in the current edition of 40K, you have limited options in each slot and have to fill X number of slots in each detachment. If we could take 10 canoness or had additional non-Unique HQ choices I wouldn't be harping like I have been, but we don't. We can take at most 5 HQs and 6 FA and 0 Flyers in a 2000 point army without taking allies. There are a few armies in similar situations. This is why I hate the Rule of X, because of how it affects armies disproportionately and affects units it has no business affecting.

 

Unfortunately, there comes a point where you may not even be able to field the army you want in even a 2000 point game because you need that 4th HQ slot for a detachment so that you CAN field, say, a Brigade and a Spearhead of Exorcists.

[Beams]

 

 

 

 

I'd rather play a subpar army and lose than play an army I don't want to play and win. That's always been the way I've enjoyed 40k, and I've always been ok loosing more than I win (I mean you kind of have to be if you picked up Sisters in 7th edition like I did) I appreciate the concern though

 

As I've said though, that doesn't mean I just pick random units, I want to use what is most effective (or least bad depending on your viewpoint) within the restrictions I want to play within.

 

Edit: But I've derailed my own topic so I'll just be quiet now

Again, you're missing the point. It's not about "subpar and lose". It's "the rules mean that at some point you have to take these units in order to build an army because you ran out of choices for the slot". All it takes is for us to get one more non-Unique HQ choice and part of the conversation becomes moot. Unfortunately, that won't be "jump pack canoness" because if they handle jump packs they way they do in Marines, it's the one option that isn't a separate dataslate.

It has to be a pretty big game before you run out of options, though.

 

You can easily do 3 Cannonesses in 2000 pts, and I imagine you can do 4 in 3000. You can cram a lot into a brigade+outrider/vanguard

[taikishi]

If you look at it solely based on choices, you're right. But it's choices + detachment requirements that create the issues.

 

A brigade + the extra artificial limits (no allies, Ministorum except Priests, Repentia, Special Characters) means you're taking a brigade and that's it in 2000 points.

 

Want 3 Seraphim AND 3 Dominions? Sorry, Brigade limits you to 5 FA

Want 3 Retributors AND 3 Exorcists? Brigade limits you to 5 HS.

 

Obviously, the easy fix is to downgrade to a Battalion but then you're losing 5 or 6 CP to also take an Outrider or Spearhead (or both). Double Brigade so you only lose 2CP? Can't do it because you won't take Jacobus or Celestine -- and you're not taking Jacobus because you don't want your BSSs losing ObSec and because he's overcosted badly.

[Purifying Tempest]

Dante, you said you didn't want to drill too much into an IG investment for your army, even though fluff wise you didn't disagree.  Which makes me all sorts of giddy, because you can probably do a good IG detachment of Guard that help, not deform, your list... for a little less on the cost than you would think.

 

2 Commanders (I use models that are more "Count-as" than physical GW models, currently. $30 (say... $15 each)

3 Infantry Squads ($30 each) ($90)

2 Hellhounds (I actually kitbashed off of Chimeras to save $15ish per) ($70ish total)

 

$190?  Using pretty much all GW prices.  And I'm done :)  You could even Outrider it and drop a Commander and the 3 Infantry Squads and just toss on a 3rd Hellhound (or Devil Dog, it adds something unique, too).  Best part is... you can Patrol it for beans to get started.  I'm actually using House Escher Necromunda models as my infantry squads... and they aren't quite the stoic Sisters look... but they have a bit of a ragtag mix of everything that isn't an ordained sister look.  Very irregular looking.

[Purifying Tempest]

If you look at it solely based on choices, you're right. But it's choices + detachment requirements that create the issues.

 

A brigade + the extra artificial limits (no allies, Ministorum except Priests, Repentia, Special Characters) means you're taking a brigade and that's it in 2000 points.

 

Want 3 Seraphim AND 3 Dominions? Sorry, Brigade limits you to 5 FA

Want 3 Retributors AND 3 Exorcists? Brigade limits you to 5 HS.

 

Obviously, the easy fix is to downgrade to a Battalion but then you're losing 5 or 6 CP to also take an Outrider or Spearhead (or both). Double Brigade so you only lose 2CP? Can't do it because you won't take Jacobus or Celestine -- and you're not taking Jacobus because you don't want your BSSs losing ObSec and because he's overcosted badly.

 

You don't downgrade to a BN from a BDE, you'd likely downgrade to 2 BNs... since the only cost is an extra HQ.  So you lose 2 CP to get the +1 extra slot of each type.  Of course, you are roped into bringing Celestine (read as: living saint :) ).

 

Also, Imagifiers are good... but 120 points for all of the heehaw they throw into the army (stuck in transports, too far away from the critical unit to share the AoF, blah blah).  6% of your army is not a small bit, and performs largely as a tax instead of an enhancement.  Overall, I just feel like the Elite slot is really weak for the army, and the Heavy Support is not much better.  The units that drive sisters are in the fast attack, sadly.

[bkde]

Play five games with it and see what works/what doesn't.

 

Looking at it right now, I'd drop the single exorcist for 5x Rets w/4 HB's and a squad of 5 Seraphim w/4 inferno pistols (proxy the hand flamers as melta pistols). Cut the squad of 10 seraphim down to 5 w/4 melta pistols. Shuffle the units around to make a battalion and an outrider (which you could do already...) to give 3+5+1=9 command points.

 

If you don't have the models to run another squad of rets or seraphim, that's okay. Play with it how it is. Theory hammer only goes so far. I'm sure after 5+ games you'll have a better understanding of what you like to use, what doesn't work, and can fine-tune war gear based on your playstyle.

[taikishi]

 

If you look at it solely based on choices, you're right. But it's choices + detachment requirements that create the issues.

 

A brigade + the extra artificial limits (no allies, Ministorum except Priests, Repentia, Special Characters) means you're taking a brigade and that's it in 2000 points.

 

Want 3 Seraphim AND 3 Dominions? Sorry, Brigade limits you to 5 FA

Want 3 Retributors AND 3 Exorcists? Brigade limits you to 5 HS.

 

Obviously, the easy fix is to downgrade to a Battalion but then you're losing 5 or 6 CP to also take an Outrider or Spearhead (or both). Double Brigade so you only lose 2CP? Can't do it because you won't take Jacobus or Celestine -- and you're not taking Jacobus because you don't want your BSSs losing ObSec and because he's overcosted badly.

 

You don't downgrade to a BN from a BDE, you'd likely downgrade to 2 BNs... since the only cost is an extra HQ.  So you lose 2 CP to get the +1 extra slot of each type.  Of course, you are roped into bringing Celestine (read as: living saint ).

 

Also, Imagifiers are good... but 120 points for all of the heehaw they throw into the army (stuck in transports, too far away from the critical unit to share the AoF, blah blah).  6% of your army is not a small bit, and performs largely as a tax instead of an enhancement.  Overall, I just feel like the Elite slot is really weak for the army, and the Heavy Support is not much better.  The units that drive sisters are in the fast attack, sadly.

 

 

That's what I said ;) If he wants more FA or more HS, he has to take Celestine or else lose 5-6CP. The 5-6CP could end up being big over the course of a game.