Order Of Companions

[Mushkilla]

Re-roll 1s increases your number of successes by 1/6. So instead of having one success you would have 7/6 success. Using this we can determine the effect of Order Of Companions stratagem on different weapons. Because, number of shot roll, hit rolls, wound rolls and damage rolls are sequential they all feed into each other (so we can multiply them).

 

Note as we are using ratios number of shots, ballistic skills, strength and damage become irrelevant.

 

Heavy stubber/avenger: rolls to hit and to wound. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit and to wound it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 = 49/36 or 136%.

 

Ironstorm pod: rolls for number of shots, to hit and to wound. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s for number shots, to hit and to wound it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 343/216 or 159%.

 

Stormspear pod/melta gun: rolls to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 343/216 or 159%.

 

Thermal Cannon/Rapid Fire Battle Cannon: rolls for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 2401/1296 or 185%.

 

So depending on the weapon Order of Companions stratagem can give you between 36-85% increase in damage output (assuming my maths is right).

 

Thoughts? Mistakes?

[Karhedron]

I have just replicated your maths and I agree with your figures. The big increase for weapons like the RFBC shows the effect of "compound interest" where multiple incremental improvements stack up into a big overall gain.

 

This is an awesome increase and makes Raven a contender for best House on this basis alone. Crusaders and Castellans in particular will get a big increase in firepower from this stratagem.

[sneakybamsen]

For shooting with 1 big knight, that stratagem is awesome. Especially as you have multiple weapons benefitting from it on a crusader or castellan. But the use of the raven trait on something like a warden or one of the shooty+smashy FW knights that you then grant the opportunity to charge is also pretty sweet.

 

I can't argue against the math, though I haven't run the numbers myself, it seems right to me.

 

Might it actually be even more effective on an RFBC than on the thermal cannon because of 2d6 shots?

[Mushkilla]

@sneakybamsen

 

You are right, I think I might have made a mistake with the number of shots for the battle cannon.

 

A 1d6 number of shots weapon with re-roll ones does increase its output by 16.66%.

 

However, 2d6 re-rolling 1s means you go from 58% chance of rolling 7 or more to a 73% chance of rolling 7 or more. That's a 25% increase. If that's correct the rapid fire battle cannon would have a 99% increase in damage output (5/4 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6).

 

So the avenger gets a 35% increase, and the RFBC gets a 99% increase. Obviously all these calculations assume you are shooting a target with unlimited wounds and theirs no damage getting wasted on overkill.

 

But that is pretty brutal. I means it's like getting an extra RFBC...

[Mushkilla]

UPDATE: More accurate numbers

The Raven stratagem Order of Companions affects the RFBC more than any other questoris class weapon.

Re-roll 1s increases your number of successes by 1/6. So instead of having one success you would have 7/6 success. Using this we can determine the effect of Order Of Companions stratagem on different weapons. This means that re-roll 1s to hit will increase your number of success by 1/6 (16.6%), re-roll ones to hit and wound would increase your number of successes by 49/36 (36%).

For number of shots the maths is a little different as there are no success or failures just whatever the value of the dice that is rolled. In this case we look at the percentage increase on the average of the die roll. The average roll on a d6 is 3.5, the average roll on a d6 with re-roll 1s is 3.92. 3.92/3.5 = 1.12 so a 12% increase or 3/25. For 2d6 shots the average roll is 7, with re-roll 1s the average roll is 7.83. 7.83/7 = 1.185 so also 12%.

For d6 damage we get an increase of 12% just like d6 shots. However for 1d3 damage re-roll ones happen more often so we get a bigger boost. The average roll on a d3 is 2, with re-roll 1s this becomes 2.33. 2.33/2 = 1.16 so 16%. For weapons in melta range the average damage roll is 4.47, with re-roll 1s it becomes 4.75. 4.75/4.47 = 1.06 so 6%.

Heavy stubber/avenger: rolls to hit and to wound. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit and to wound it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 = 136%. So an increase of 36%.

Ironstorm pod: rolls for number of shots, to hit and to wound. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s for number shots, to hit and to wound it becomes 28/25 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 152%. So an increase of 52%.

Stormspear pod/melta gun (outside melta range): rolls to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 152%. So an increase of 52%.

Melta gun (inside melta range): rolls to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 475/447 = 145%. So an increase of 45%.

Thermal Cannon (outside melta range): rolls for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 28/25 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 28/25 = 171%. So an increase of 71%.

Thermal Cannon (in melta range): rolls for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 28/25 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 475/447= 162%. So an increase of 62%.

Rapid Fire Battle Cannon: rolls for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 28/25 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 178%. So an increase of 78%.

So depending on the weapon Order of Companions stratagem can give you between 36-78% increase in average damage output. I've checked the maths with a simulation, so these numbers should be correct.

It's also worth pointing out that re-roll 1s will reduce the variance in the results, which will make the firepower a lot more reliable.

[Stray]

Mushy, would it be possible to get the numbers from the Castellans weapons too?

 

With what the strat does, as a very, very general rule of thumb it makes sense to activate it on a model with as much firepower as possible - you just get more value out of it that way. So that said in a shooty Knight army that's nearly always likely to be a Castellan or a Crusader. I'd guess at probably the latter edging things by the time you take into account the shoulder cannon given the variance inherent in them? Be interesting to see the numbers though.

 

Good work on this, it's really very interesting. Definitely a strange strat in some ways. 

[hermanista]

Whilst I'm not really a numbers person.

 

Companions on a Valiant with a blessed Conflagration cannon...

 

Must be fun to try once at least.

[Mushkilla]

Mushy, would it be possible to get the numbers from the Castellans weapons too?

 

Conflagration Cannon: 28/25 * 7/6 = 131%. So an increase of 31%.

 

Heavy Flamer: 28/25 * 7/6 = 131%. So an increase of 31%.

 

Harpoon (targeting vehicles, so already re-rolls to hit): 7/6 = 116.6%. So an increase of 16.6%.

 

Volcano Lance (shooting at non titanic): 28/25 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 178%. So an increase of 78%.

 

Volcano Lance (shooting at titanic): 28/25 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 152%. So an increase of 52%.

 

Plasma Decimator: 28/25 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 152%. So an increase of 52%.

 

Siegebreaker Cannons: 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 182%. So an increase of 82%.

 

Shieldbreaker missiles:  7/6 * 7/6 * 28/25 = 152%. So an increase of 52%.

 

 

VULKER

 

Vulker household trait and stratagems only affect weapons that can roll to hit. Re-roll 1s as we know from before increases your number of success by 1/6. 6s becoming two hits on a BS3 model is functional the same as making it BS2, so it increases your number of hits by 25%.

 

Vulker Firestorm Protocols (re-roll 1s to hit): 16.6% increase.

 

Vulker Saturation Bombardment (6s count as 2 hits): 25% increase.

 

Vulker Firestorm Protocols & Saturation Bombardment: 46% increase.

[Stray]

Thanks buddy!

 

Quick query though, did you take into account the Siegebreakers being 2D3 rather than 1D6? 

[Mushkilla]

Thanks buddy!

 

Quick query though, did you take into account the Siegebreakers being 2D3 rather than 1D6? 

 

Yes, if it was d6 is would be a 12% increase in number of shots, d3 and 2d3 both get an increase of 16.6%. That's why they have the highest gain out of all the weapon options we have, as 2d3 shots and 1d3 damage they benefit more from re-roll 1s.

 

It would be really interesting to see what the effect on variance is. Because the one thing people miss with average damage is it only happens 50% of the time. So whilst the above calculations are useful for seeing the effect of stratagems/traits on average damage output, they shouldn't really be used for anything else. What would be more useful is if you know 83% of the time damage is above X. As that becomes something you can build a game plan around.

[Stray]

 

Thanks buddy!

 

Quick query though, did you take into account the Siegebreakers being 2D3 rather than 1D6? 

 

Yes, if it was d6 is would be a 12% increase in number of shots, d3 and 2d3 both get an increase of 16.6%. That's why they have the highest gain out of all the weapon options we have, as 2d3 shots and 1d3 damage they benefit more from re-roll 1s.

 

 

Cheers buddy, sorry I think it's the 7/6 expression for them that is throwing me, but in all honesty my mental grasp of ratios isn't the best (probability expressed as a percentage comes more naturally to this cat).

[MGL]

Whilst I'm not really a numbers person.

 

Companions on a Valiant with a blessed Conflagration cannon...

 

Must be fun to try once at least.

[Mushkilla]

Whats interesting is how efficient Vulker is at shooting the closest target. Combined with their 1CP stratagem they get a very efficient boost. 

 

What I'm really struggling with is the CP opportunity cost with knights. Sure, Order of Companions does give you a significant boost in fire power, but at 2CP thats a Full Tilt (charge after advancing), or 2 Rotate Ion Shields, or 2 Machine Spirit Resurgent, or a Counter Offensive.

[Stray]

Whats interesting is how efficient Vulker is at shooting the closest target. Combined with their 1CP stratagem they get a very efficient boost. 

 

What I'm really struggling with is the CP opportunity cost with knights. Sure, Order of Companions does give you a significant boost in fire power, but at 2CP thats a Full Tilt (charge after advancing), or 2 Rotate Ion Shields, or 2 Machine Spirit Resurgent, or a Counter Offensive.

 

Some of the CP costs for Strats are bizarre. My favourite example I think is still a 1CP Death Grip, vs a 3CP Rotate Ion Shields on a Dominus. They're apples and oranges a bit, but as nice as a +1 to your invuln is, I'm not sure it's as potentially game changing as what amounts to the quite reliable deletion of a key unit. Especially at 1/3rd the cost.

 

But then, I don't understand what the justification of charging 3CP for Rotate on the Dominus(ses 's s') is anyway. It's not a unit I'm personally all that bothered about and I still feel those that are taking it are being robbed at 3CP.

 

Especially given the limitations over the CP we have to spend anyway!

[Mushkilla]

Agreed. Rotate ion shields for dominus class should be 2CP at most, at 3CP they might as well have said, rotate ion shields doesn't work on dominus class knights.

 

I have the same issue with "Full tilt" 2CP maybe makes sense in the context of Raven or Gallants. However, on any non-raven/non-gallant/non-warglaive knight you are sacrificing your entire shooting phase in addition to paying 2CP. That just feels like a huge cost.

[Stray]

Agreed. Rotate ion shields for dominus class should be 2CP at most, at 3CP they might as well have said, rotate ion shields doesn't work on dominus class knights.

 

I have the same issue with "Full tilt" 2CP maybe makes sense in the context of Raven or Gallants. However, on any non-raven/non-gallant/non-warglaive knight you are sacrificing your entire shooting phase in addition to paying 2CP. That just feels like a huge cost.

 

Yeah, I think you're right.

 

The mechanics behind 'full tilt' we see given away for free as a permanent trait for some units elsewhere. It's certainly useful, but you can cheese much the same effect (albeit at likely noticeably shorter range) via the HI mechanics on any Knight which is a character anyway (so probably all of them), for free. 

 

I think 1CP for full tilt would have been more than fair.

[Tyriks]

I can see the cost of Full Tilt making sense. If you play House Raven or run multiple Gallants (especially as a House like Terryn) it would be really strong, so I think it's trying to avoid that. But, I still think that wouldn't be game breaking at 1 cp, just very strong against some armies.

[Mushkilla]

I can see the cost of Full Tilt making sense. If you play House Raven or run multiple Gallants (especially as a House like Terryn) it would be really strong, so I think it's trying to avoid that. But, I still think that wouldn't be game breaking at 1 cp, just very strong against some armies.

 

Yeah, even more so when combined with Landstrider. But outside of Raven/Gallants its 2CP seems really expensive. But maybe its not meant to be used outside of those combinations?

[Stray]

There's a certain level of... Imbalance? In the availability of Stratagems between Imperial and Mechanicus Knights for me too. Two especially sting a little bit for the Imperial player:

 

Benevolence of the Machine God (1CP - 5++ (effectively) vs each and every mortal wound (not source, but individual wound) for an entire phase) - what's a Knights biggest weakness arguably? Yep, and it's Mechanicus only. 

 

Machine Spirit Resurgent (1CP - we know what this one does) Again, Mechanicus only. Hawkshroud helps here, but effectively you get a better version of their trait, plus your own, on tap when you choose to use it, just for playing a Mechanicus house.

 

These are both great, and likely well costed given that they're mainstays for many people, but I just think they ought to have been cross-faction. Not locked to one side.

[Mushkilla]

There's a certain level of... Imbalance? In the availability of Stratagems between Imperial and Mechanicus Knights for me too. Two especially sting a little bit for the Imperial player:

 

Benevolence of the Machine God (1CP - 5++ (effectively) vs each and every mortal wound (not source, but individual wound) for an entire phase) - what's a Knights biggest weakness arguably? Yep, and it's Mechanicus only. 

 

Machine Spirit Resurgent (1CP - we know what this one does) Again, Mechanicus only. Hawkshroud helps here, but effectively you get a better version of their trait, plus your own, on tap when you choose to use it, just for playing a Mechanicus house.

 

These are both great, and likely well costed given that they're mainstays for many people, but I just think they ought to have been cross-faction. Not locked to one side.

 

I quite like the distinction. I also think the Imperial stratagems are just as good as the admech ones if not better.

 

Admech stratagems are great on paper, but in practice they are a huge drain on CP. Machine Spirit Resurgent only works for your turn, so its not great on close combat knights, it also only last a turn so you need to keep spending CP to maintain it, which means less CP for other stratagems. Similar issue Benevolence it going to eat into your CP fast, it looks good on paper but in practice its not an effective defence.

 

I also think you might be undervaluing the power of Valiant Last Stand. This is an amazing stratagem on gallants as even on their worst profile they hit on a 4+ (3+ with mortan) or on a valiant as the conflagration cannon doesn't care about degradation, it's such a great deterrent. Machine Spirit Resurgent is not a deterrent, it actively encourages your opponent to kill a wounded knight. Valiant Last Stand on the other hand makes an injured knight much less appealing to destroy, as it will get a devastating last laugh attack, you're better off degrading another knight.

 

As for the Imperials stubber upgrade stratagem I'd take -1AP over shooting overwatch without penalty any day, its just a much better stratagem.

 

Finally Sally Forth is really powerful, it provides something original as its the only way to reserve knights. It can be used to protect models from the alpha strike (for example reserving a squad of three helverins and having them come in turn 1 in your deployment zone).

[Stray]

 

There's a certain level of... Imbalance? In the availability of Stratagems between Imperial and Mechanicus Knights for me too. Two especially sting a little bit for the Imperial player:

 

Benevolence of the Machine God (1CP - 5++ (effectively) vs each and every mortal wound (not source, but individual wound) for an entire phase) - what's a Knights biggest weakness arguably? Yep, and it's Mechanicus only. 

 

Machine Spirit Resurgent (1CP - we know what this one does) Again, Mechanicus only. Hawkshroud helps here, but effectively you get a better version of their trait, plus your own, on tap when you choose to use it, just for playing a Mechanicus house.

 

These are both great, and likely well costed given that they're mainstays for many people, but I just think they ought to have been cross-faction. Not locked to one side.

 

I quite like the distinction. I also think the Imperial stratagems are just as good as the admech ones if not better.

 

Admech stratagems are great on paper, but in practice they are a huge drain on CP. Machine Spirit Resurgent only works for your turn, so its not great on close combat knights, it also only last a turn so you need to keep spending CP to maintain it, which means less CP for other stratagems. Similar issue Benevolence it going to eat into your CP fast, it looks good on paper but in practice its not an effective defence.

 

I also think you might be undervaluing the power of Valiant Last Stand. This is an amazing stratagem on gallants as even on their worst profile they hit on a 4+ (3+ with mortan) or on a valiant as the conflagration cannon doesn't care about degradation, it's such a great deterrent. Machine Spirit Resurgent is not a deterrent, it actively encourages your opponent to kill a wounded knight. Valiant Last Stand on the other hand makes an injured knight much less appealing to destroy, as it will get a devastating last laugh attack, you're better off degrading another knight.

 

As for the Imperials stubber upgrade stratagem I'd take -1AP over shooting overwatch without penalty any day, its just a much better stratagem.

 

Finally Sally Forth is really powerful, it provides something original as its the only way to reserve knights. It can be used to protect models from the alpha strike (for example reserving a squad of three helverins and having them come in turn 1 in your deployment zone).

 

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Mushy :)

 

MSR is just huge, always has been (though possibly slightly less so now with the advent of traditions and some of their bonuses), the key to it is you have your full effectiveness available when you need it. You get to pick when, and it's really cheap at 1CP. If you're burning through CP using it, it's because you want to be using it right?

You can use it in your opponents turn too, if you wish, and feel the need to.

 

I like sally forth, but probably wouldn't use it personally. 'Deep striking' isn't quite what it once was (though it's still a great tactic), given our number of drops we likely are getting first turn, and played right we're damn fast anyhow. It's 3CP's of good, but only maybe for me.

 

Cognis and Ironhail are meh, and more meh to me. Stubbers are there to be endured, not embraced, in my lists :P

 

I don't know how I feel about VLS... I don't love it. For me, it's not enough, not nearly enough, to make Imperialis houses an auto take. And personally I find it far more situational than say MSR. It could do something great, or you could save 2 CP for something that wiffs. I dunno, there's a time and a place for sure, but give me reliability than the 'maybe' of a - potentially great certainly, - but not guaranteed clutch play.

 

But, hey! Opinions should differ right? If they didn't, we'd all be taking the exact same army vs each other, which would be rather boring.

My feelings on the matter are far from being facts for sure, and it's nice to hear a well reasoned differing school of thought.

[Mushkilla]

Yeah I guess I'm a fan of stratagems that keep people guessing. Thats why I like VLS. It has an effect even if you don't use it. Same with the amazing house Cadmus stratagem that I wish was a general stratagem we all had access to. Sure it's 3CP, but the fact that it exists stops your opponent from deepstriking within 12" of you. That's what's so great about it you get the effect without having to use it.

 

As for MSR, to paraphrase GW. It will teach people to turn their backs on the Omnissiah. 1010100101001! Joking. :P

[Prot]

Honestly, I don’t understand the numbers here. I do know I have turns of rolling a lot of 2’s though and that would be one heck of a frustrating turn.

 

On the other hand I will say that for me personally, this is my second favourite Knight Strategem behind Hawkshroud, and it has been since day 1. I haven’t been very public about it except on my blog where I truly decided I want to run this with an Advancing Valiant.

 

I think Taranis is going to be a default for obvious reasons and the Castellan will be a go to as well, but I really want to see what I can do with the Valiant and this start. Also the fact it’s 2 Cp makes it pretty critical to use at the right time. And your list has to be built for it, and yet be functional without it(there’s no way DE is letting me get this off).

[Stray]

Honestly, I don’t understand the numbers here. I do know I have turns of rolling a lot of 2’s though and that would be one heck of a frustrating turn.

 

On the other hand I will say that for me personally, this is my second favourite Knight Strategem behind Hawkshroud, and it has been since day 1. I haven’t been very public about it except on my blog where I truly decided I want to run this with an Advancing Valiant.

 

I think Taranis is going to be a default for obvious reasons and the Castellan will be a go to as well, but I really want to see what I can do with the Valiant and this start. Also the fact it’s 2 Cp makes it pretty critical to use at the right time. And your list has to be built for it, and yet be functional without it(there’s no way DE is letting me get this off).

 

It is really, really interesting that we're moving to a point where we are either building lists around a Strat or Strats, or selecting Strats around our lists. 

I like that actually both seem to be eminently viable approaches right now.

[Mushkilla]

It is really, really interesting that we're moving to a point where we are either building lists around a Strat or Strats, or selecting Strats around our lists.

I like that actually both seem to be eminently viable approaches right now.

Yeah its pretty awesome. One of the best thing about he book boat load of awesome stratagems, it just makes for a load of flexibility. At the same time it doesn't feel like we depend on one particular stratagem like say blood angels 3d6 charge. So I'm not too worried about Agents of Vect.