First thoughts on Codex: Imperial Knights

[Stray]

Just the Cerastus unfortunately buddy (and by extension, the Acastus is likely a safe bet too). I think as far as Armigers go, their policy is clear for now, and we'll have to wait and see if enough noise is made that they choose to review it.

 

I suspect we won't see anything regarding Armigers and CP in the FAQ. We might, but it's probably a bit early. But don't give up hope, there's a decent stretch for things like that to be considered by the community and fielded GW's way for this years Chapter Approved. I imagine we'll see a change there if it's going to happen.

[jeffersonian000]

A fun way to run Helverins is with a character Perceptor with The Helm Dominatus relic. Gives your nearby Helverins a BS 2+ with re-roll 1’s.

 

Go House Raven with Landstrider on the Perceptor for a fast mobile gunline.

 

Just a neat gem I noticed.

 

SJ

[Mushkilla]

That's a nice combo there. Shame the helm dominatus is a once per battle effect. Still a pretty powerful combo as it can affect multiple helvrins for a brutal alphastike.

[MGL]

Actually it is once per battle round.

[Mushkilla]

Actually it is once per battle round.

Wow I totally misread that. That's amazing.

[N1SB]

1st things 1st, thanks for this discussion.  Although sobering, it's worth having this sort of reality check.

 

Was looking at the Codex with some 40k friends, lots of ideas, but we ourselves agreed there were mainly 2 stand-outs:

 

 

+++ Knight Gallant +++

 

The Imperium faction doesn't have a melee option quite like it.  We see the Knight Gallant as just a wrecking ball to swing at the opponent and either tie up his units for early turns (they're focus firing trying to bring it down) or it'll do some actual damage, a Kamikaze Knight.  We debated the Warlord Traits, Relics, etc., but pretty much all agreed with the House Terryn option (better advances and charges).  It also happens to be the cheapest of the big knight options.  It's not auto-win, but it offers something a little different to Imperial armies.

 

 

+++ Armiger Helverin +++

 

The Imperium has many tempting shooty Lords of Wars, but they hit a wall with the "Leman Russ Test", where we compare them and their weapons to their equivalent cost's worth of Leman Russ Tanks or other Imperium tanks.  The Armiger Helverin seems to pass this as an autocannon-like platform.  For only about a bit more points than a Leman Russ Executioner (or the equivalent Predator), the Helverin delivers more shots at more damage.  Then it happens to be extremely mobile thanks to its movement and its ignoring the fire & movement penalties.

 

 

These are just our initial impressions, before reading here.  Interesting to note we noticed the same things.

[General Strike]

Yeah,boosting Helverins is a good combo. I am looking at a list variant of a Warden, Preceptor, and Crusader, Preceptor decked out with helm dominatus, and four Helverins. I have a Castellan based list as well, but to do this one all I need is two more helverins.

[Felstone]

 

 

+++ Knight Gallant +++

 

1st things 1st, thanks for this discussion.  Although sobering, it's worth having this sort of reality check.

 

Was looking at the Codex with some 40k friends, lots of ideas, but we ourselves agreed there were mainly 2 stand-outs:

 

 

+++ Knight Gallant +++

 

The Imperium faction doesn't have a melee option quite like it.  We see the Knight Gallant as just a wrecking ball to swing at the opponent and either tie up his units for early turns (they're focus firing trying to bring it down) or it'll do some actual damage, a Kamikaze Knight.  We debated the Warlord Traits, Relics, etc., but pretty much all agreed with the House Terryn option (better advances and charges).  It also happens to be the cheapest of the big knight options.  It's not auto-win, but it offers something a little different to Imperial armies.

 

 

+++ Armiger Helverin +++

 

The Imperium has many tempting shooty Lords of Wars, but they hit a wall with the "Leman Russ Test", where we compare them and their weapons to their equivalent cost's worth of Leman Russ Tanks or other Imperium tanks.  The Armiger Helverin seems to pass this as an autocannon-like platform.  For only about a bit more points than a Leman Russ Executioner (or the equivalent Predator), the Helverin delivers more shots at more damage.  Then it happens to be extremely mobile thanks to its movement and its ignoring the fire & movement penalties.

 

 

These are just our initial impressions, before reading here.  Interesting to note we noticed the same things.

 

I'm either going with a Gallant or a Warden as my knight deep strike. Warden might be more competitive, pop him out, open fire, then charge with a thunder gauntlet.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Can we put Valiant in reserve? Or it is reserved for questoris&armigers only?

[Felstone]

Can we put Valiant in reserve? Or it is reserved for questoris&armigers only?

 

Questoris & armigers only.

[Melete]

I am kind of mystified at the stray remark towards Tau. That codex isn't bad, lol. It's won multiple GTs in the US just in the past month.

 

Anyhow, reading through the Knights codex, I've got two things I really like. The Castellan with Cawl's Wrath seems great even if hit penalties still make it suffer a bit. And a Knight Gallant warlord with Landstrider advancing for a turn one charge (your opponent's on Full Tilt) sounds both pretty great and pretty hilarious.

 

I really like the book at first glance. I think I'll pick up some Knights eventually to go with my Space Wolves. It's a pity I play Wolves instead of an army like Guard that pairs much better with Knights, though!

[brother_b]

I am kind of mystified at the stray remark towards Tau. That codex isn't bad, lol. It's won multiple GTs in the US just in the past month.

 

Anyhow, reading through the Knights codex, I've got two things I really like. The Castellan with Cawl's Wrath seems great even if hit penalties still make it suffer a bit. And a Knight Gallant warlord with Landstrider advancing for a turn one charge (your opponent's on Full Tilt) sounds both pretty great and pretty hilarious.

 

I really like the book at first glance. I think I'll pick up some Knights eventually to go with my Space Wolves. It's a pity I play Wolves instead of an army like Guard that pairs much better with Knights, though!

 

Actually it's awesome you play an army like Wolves instead of IG, because you like Wolves! You'll be howling a different tune the moment Russ returns!

 

I'm so glad that our group is pretty low key. None of the shenanigans/tournament stuff.

[sneakybamsen]

I'm puzzled to why the OP would start this, as he's been sorely absent since starting the thread, and didn't post anything of note in the time up till release. And the lashout against Tau too makes no sense. The knight codex isn't perfect, but then, what is?

 

I don't read a lot into that kind of behaviour, I just let it pass as ramblings untill the rambler backs it up.

 

But it's the kind of thread every new codex has, I guess, so it was only a matter of time before someone started it.

 

The above is not intented as a personal assault on the OP or anyone else, just trying to say that it can be taken lightly.

 

I hope GW make good on their promise of Armigers being there for CP, else I'm gonna be a tad disappointed. There are other things that need clarification/FAQ'ing, but they should hopefully be adressed soon.

 

If Armigers don't let us get CP, I'll damn well run a DA battalion with a techmarine and a librarian for support with the three scout squads (possibly sprinkling some heavy bolters for hellfire shells). 6 CP for three questoris/cerastus/dominus knights is far from thought through.

[Karhedron]

Do you think the lance restriction was to prevent other armies from taking 3 armigers in a Super heavy detachment and receiving 3 CP and allowing the armigers to have house rules?

 

No proof of course but I suspect this to be the case. Look at something like a Leman Russ. If you run a Detachment of 3 of those in a Spearhead, you get +1CP and it still requires an HQ tax. Allowing 3 Armigers to generate +3CPs might have made them seem flat-out better than most Heavy/Spearhead choices.

 

I can see the point of gview but given how few CPs Knights will get and how expensive many of their stratagems are, I think they went too far in the opposite direction.

 

For the cost of an Armiger, people will just run a bare-bones IG Battalion for CP generation, screening and some cheap ObjSec bodies.

[Karhedron]

Death Grip for example I'm not sure is costed appropriately at 1CP. It's very, very good...

Death Grip can be very good but it depends on getting into CC with an appropriately valuable target and not crushing it in the CC phase.

 

Most likely use case is crushing one unit on the charge and managing to consolidate into another. It is one of those stratagems that is very good but if you find yourself in the position to use it, chances are that the battle is already going your way anyway.

[sneakybamsen]

 

Death Grip for example I'm not sure is costed appropriately at 1CP. It's very, very good...

Death Grip can be very good but it depends on getting into CC with an appropriately valuable target and not crushing it in the CC phase.

 

Most likely use case is crushing one unit on the charge and managing to consolidate into another. It is one of those stratagems that is very good but if you find yourself in the position to use it, chances are that the battle is already going your way anyway.

 

 

You'd have to have charged the other unit to be able to do that, and I don't think consolidating even will let you do that, as it's the last thing you do in an activation. The grip is based on an attack against a single model target after you attacked, so it's definitely not going to be every fight you'll be able to use it.

 

That said it's good, and fun and all, but it won't come up too often, I think.

[Stray]

 

Death Grip for example I'm not sure is costed appropriately at 1CP. It's very, very good...

Death Grip can be very good but it depends on getting into CC with an appropriately valuable target and not crushing it in the CC phase.

 

Most likely use case is crushing one unit on the charge and managing to consolidate into another. It is one of those stratagems that is very good but if you find yourself in the position to use it, chances are that the battle is already going your way anyway.

 

There's certainly a situational component - you're not wrong buddy.

 

I figure it'll get used pretty reliably to take out 'buffing' characters that are accompanying units. Charge unit with your Gallant (position carefully), stompy stomp stomp, consolidate into range of buffer, find his lack of faith disturbing

 

 

 

Death Grip for example I'm not sure is costed appropriately at 1CP. It's very, very good...

Death Grip can be very good but it depends on getting into CC with an appropriately valuable target and not crushing it in the CC phase.

 

Most likely use case is crushing one unit on the charge and managing to consolidate into another. It is one of those stratagems that is very good but if you find yourself in the position to use it, chances are that the battle is already going your way anyway.

 

You'd have to have charged the other unit to be able to do that, and I don't think consolidating even will let you do that, as it's the last thing you do in an activation. The grip is based on an attack against a single model target after you attacked, so it's definitely not going to be every fight you'll be able to use it.

 

That said it's good, and fun and all, but it won't come up too often, I think.

 

Hmm. Interesting. RAW the Strat says... yadda yadda, use immediately after fighting, resolve an additional attack with [Gauntlet] against an enemy unit within 1" that consists of a single model. I'm not sure that you need to have declared a charge against them from that. You just need to be in range.

 

I think a lot of it is going to come down to where you place your Knight, and how they've spaced out their units.

[sneakybamsen]

 

 

 

Death Grip for example I'm not sure is costed appropriately at 1CP. It's very, very good...

Death Grip can be very good but it depends on getting into CC with an appropriately valuable target and not crushing it in the CC phase.

 

Most likely use case is crushing one unit on the charge and managing to consolidate into another. It is one of those stratagems that is very good but if you find yourself in the position to use it, chances are that the battle is already going your way anyway.

 

 

You'd have to have charged the other unit to be able to do that, and I don't think consolidating even will let you do that, as it's the last thing you do in an activation. The grip is based on an attack against a single model target after you attacked, so it's definitely not going to be every fight you'll be able to use it.

 

That said it's good, and fun and all, but it won't come up too often, I think.

 

 

Hmm. Interesting. RAW the Strat says... yadda yadda, use immediately after fighting, resolve an additional attack with [Gauntlet] against an enemy unit within 1" that consists of a single model. I'm not sure that you need to have declared a charge against them from that. You just need to be in range.

 

I think a lot of it is going to come down to where you place your Knight, and how they've spaced out their units.

 

 

When charging, you can only fight something you've charged, and it says "resolve an additional attack". So if you haven't charged the single model, you won't be able to pull it off, as I understand the rules as they are written. If your opponent knows what's coming, he'll keep his characters covered. Especially the marine sized ones. But hey, even a 180 point demon prince will find the grip uncomfortable...

[Stray]

 

 

 

 

Death Grip for example I'm not sure is costed appropriately at 1CP. It's very, very good...

Death Grip can be very good but it depends on getting into CC with an appropriately valuable target and not crushing it in the CC phase.

 

Most likely use case is crushing one unit on the charge and managing to consolidate into another. It is one of those stratagems that is very good but if you find yourself in the position to use it, chances are that the battle is already going your way anyway.

 

 

You'd have to have charged the other unit to be able to do that, and I don't think consolidating even will let you do that, as it's the last thing you do in an activation. The grip is based on an attack against a single model target after you attacked, so it's definitely not going to be every fight you'll be able to use it.

 

That said it's good, and fun and all, but it won't come up too often, I think.

 

 

Hmm. Interesting. RAW the Strat says... yadda yadda, use immediately after fighting, resolve an additional attack with [Gauntlet] against an enemy unit within 1" that consists of a single model. I'm not sure that you need to have declared a charge against them from that. You just need to be in range.

 

I think a lot of it is going to come down to where you place your Knight, and how they've spaced out their units.

 

 

When charging, you can only fight something you've charged, and it says "resolve an additional attack". So if you haven't charged the single model, you won't be able to pull it off, as I understand the rules as they are written. If your opponent knows what's coming, he'll keep his characters covered. Especially the marine sized ones. But hey, even a 180 point demon prince will find the grip uncomfortable...

 

 

I interpret it differently I think buddy. You could just declare a charge against both units in this case anyway. Or HI, or, or...

 

I don't think the Strat is implying that the 'additional attack' is being made against a unit you've already attacked, just that it's an attack, on top/after or in addition to the attacks you've made in the fight phase? You're completely right regarding the charge rules, but I don't see anything that indicates that the Strat needs to respect them - it's a separate function that has it's own specific built in rules for targeting, because it's not a fight phase attack in the normal sense right?

[Charlo]

Looking at the actual stratagem in all it's full written out glory:

 

 

It just says resolve an additional attack against a unit within 1". There is no pre-requisite of having charged or already fought the same unit or anything else.

[Stray]

'tis my interpretation too Charlo (which doesn't make it correct of course :P), but yeah, that's definitely what I get from reading the Strat.

 

It's an important distinction though, because as our Knightly colleagues point out above, it has quite an impact on the usefulness of the stratagem.

[sneakybamsen]

It could be as you say, and it'll make a difference (potentially a big one), however it turns out it's supposed to be played.

 

I am aware it doesn't have to be the same target that you already attacked, if it did, this would realisticly only be useful to be lucky to land a few mortals against big targets that survived your fist/stomp attacks.

 

But yeah, multicharge would definitely mean you land yourself opportunities, and with 12" movement (untill bracketing), you should be able to get in position for some shenanigans.

 

That advancing Krast gallant with Full Tilt landing that delightful T1 charge supported by another knight with Landstrider, naturally. Holy smokes if he hits a superheavy...

[Lysere]

It could be as you say, and it'll make a difference (potentially a big one), however it turns out it's supposed to be played.

 

I am aware it doesn't have to be the same target that you already attacked, if it did, this would realisticly only be useful to be lucky to land a few mortals against big targets that survived your fist/stomp attacks.

 

But yeah, multicharge would definitely mean you land yourself opportunities, and with 12" movement (untill bracketing), you should be able to get in position for some shenanigans.

 

That advancing Krast gallant with Full Tilt landing that delightful T1 charge supported by another knight with Landstrider, naturally. Holy smokes if he hits a superheavy...

 

In regards to the rules for the stratagem fighting includes everything up to and including the final consolidation. The issue of targeting is a bit more confusing. The rule for chargers is they can't target something they didn't charge but the stratagem seems to skip that step if you go entirely as its written. Even if it can't skip it I don't think GW has ever clarified what counts as a failed charge when mutli charging so you could charge the character and consolidate into them after you stomp on the squad in between and then use it anyway.

[Stray]

 

It could be as you say, and it'll make a difference (potentially a big one), however it turns out it's supposed to be played.

 

I am aware it doesn't have to be the same target that you already attacked, if it did, this would realisticly only be useful to be lucky to land a few mortals against big targets that survived your fist/stomp attacks.

 

But yeah, multicharge would definitely mean you land yourself opportunities, and with 12" movement (untill bracketing), you should be able to get in position for some shenanigans.

 

That advancing Krast gallant with Full Tilt landing that delightful T1 charge supported by another knight with Landstrider, naturally. Holy smokes if he hits a superheavy...

 

In regards to the rules for the stratagem fighting includes everything up to and including the final consolidation. The issue of targeting is a bit more confusing. The rule for chargers is they can't target something they didn't charge but the stratagem seems to skip that step if you go entirely as its written. Even if it can't skip it I don't think GW has ever clarified what counts as a failed charge when mutli charging so you could charge the character and consolidate into them after you stomp on the squad in between and then use it anyway.

 

 

A failed charge when multi charging must essentially fail to reach every one of the nominated targets, or at least, this appears to be how the community plays it. You see play based around this used regularly by some of the bigger ITC personalities. They'll declare a risky charge against say a character, and then also a safer one against a closer unit. If they miss the distance needed for their first choice of target, they simply charge the 'consolation prize' and still get to fight.

 

It's somewhat exploitative of what are arguably unclear rules, but it's a widely used and universally accepted technique within the competitive scene.

[Lysere]

 

 

It could be as you say, and it'll make a difference (potentially a big one), however it turns out it's supposed to be played.

 

I am aware it doesn't have to be the same target that you already attacked, if it did, this would realisticly only be useful to be lucky to land a few mortals against big targets that survived your fist/stomp attacks.

 

But yeah, multicharge would definitely mean you land yourself opportunities, and with 12" movement (untill bracketing), you should be able to get in position for some shenanigans.

 

That advancing Krast gallant with Full Tilt landing that delightful T1 charge supported by another knight with Landstrider, naturally. Holy smokes if he hits a superheavy...

 

In regards to the rules for the stratagem fighting includes everything up to and including the final consolidation. The issue of targeting is a bit more confusing. The rule for chargers is they can't target something they didn't charge but the stratagem seems to skip that step if you go entirely as its written. Even if it can't skip it I don't think GW has ever clarified what counts as a failed charge when mutli charging so you could charge the character and consolidate into them after you stomp on the squad in between and then use it anyway.

 

 

A failed charge when multi charging must essentially fail to reach every one of the nominated targets, or at least, this appears to be how the community plays it. You see play based around this used regularly by some of the bigger ITC personalities. They'll declare a risky charge against say a character, and then also a safer one against a closer unit. If they miss the distance needed for their first choice of target, they simply charge the 'consolation prize' and still get to fight.

 

It's somewhat exploitative of what are arguably unclear rules, but it's a widely used and universally accepted technique within the competitive scene.

 

 

I know this tends to be how it's played but that doesn't mean it is correct and since GW has yet to say one way or the other you can use this idea in theory. It's not the way I feel it should be played and I'm not sure how GW to rule if they ever address it in the future but for now it is a reasonable assumption to play by. Most characters don't have strong enough shooting to scare a knight anyway.