First thoughts on Codex: Imperial Knights

[Inquisitor Fox]

 

Is it just me, Or is there a legitimate argument for both a "Super-Heavy Detachment" and a "Super-Heavy Auxillary Detachment" both being a Super-Heavy Detachment for purposes of House traits? Similar to how a unit of Space Marine Devastators is a unit of Space Marines? The wording and lack of italics or further examples allows for a great deal of vagueness.

I suppose there isn't any italics, but considering there is a 'Super Heavy Detachment' and 'Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment' and the word auxiliary isn't within the lance rules I would assume not. The AM codex is a good example, although that specifically says 'Not super heavy aux' and this one doesn't.

 

You're 100% correct, it would be beneficial if the writers were consistent in their wording to avoid any possibility of confusion

I just figure it's like someone trying to tell me that Marines get chapter tactics in Detachment A but not Detachment B. It just makes sense that they always get household traits. Codex: SM says Space Marine Detachment, but a Detachment of Space Marine Scouts claims the chapter tactics benefit

 

Similarly if I wanted to be "that guy" I could argue that none of the detachments in the main rulebook say "Space Marine Detachment" so therefore no one gets chapter tactics ever, but we all know how that'd go...

[Tyriks]

No, that doesn't work. The SM codex specifies what counts as a SM detachment. Similarly, our codex only mentions a Super Heavy Detachment getting the trait rules. There's nothing to argue because it explicitly and exclusively gives permission to one detachment. There's never a point in any rulebook which refers to the Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment as a "super heavy detachment."

[facmanpob]

My theory on why SH Aux Detachments don't get Household traits is that its a rule writer's way of pushing the player down the line of picking a Freeblade as a standalone knight, but that's pure speculation.

[Vel'Cona]

My theory on why SH Aux Detachments don't get Household traits is that its a rule writer's way of pushing the player down the line of picking a Freeblade as a standalone knight, but that's pure speculation.

 

That's possible.  Also something of a "nerf" on splashed Knights because the Freeblade rules are generally pants compared to Knightly Houses :(

[Focslain]

 

My theory on why SH Aux Detachments don't get Household traits is that its a rule writer's way of pushing the player down the line of picking a Freeblade as a standalone knight, but that's pure speculation.

 

That's possible.  Also something of a "nerf" on splashed Knights because the Freeblade rules are generally pants compared to Knightly Houses

 

That's varied. If you just pick your qualities you can give it either a stat boost (peerless warrior or indomitable warrior) or objsec (Sworn to Quest), left to chance you can roll and hope for them. 

 

The burdens aren't too bad except the machine spirit one and that is only on a failed lead check on 9 (10 if you indomitable)

 

Personally haven't had much issue with freeblades, but only used twice so time will tell.

[Vel'Cona]

 

Personally haven't had much issue with freeblades, but only used twice so time will tell.

 

It's not so much the Burdens I dislike (though that doesn't help).  More so the loss of Household rules (some of which are critically valuable) and access to the Household-specific Strategems, Warlord Traits and Relics (especially the Strategems).  I feel that Freeblades are certainly fine to use and could offer some cool benefits, but the randomness is something that I've disliked since I tried playing Orks under 3rd edition Waaagh! rules :P

[Karhedron]

It's not so much the Burdens I dislike (though that doesn't help).  More so the loss of Household rules (some of which are critically valuable) and access to the Household-specific Strategems, Warlord Traits and Relics (especially the Strategems).  I feel that Freeblades are certainly fine to use and could offer some cool benefits, but the randomness is something that I've disliked since I tried playing Orks under 3rd edition Waaagh! rules 

 

You don't have to have random Qualities and Burdens. You can always choose yourself if you prefer. Either choose 1 Quality or take 2 random ones. Either choose 2 Burdens or take 1 random one.

 

Some burdens hardly bother certain builds. For example, getting reduce to BS6+ won't  bother a Galant much and nor will having to declare charges against all targets within 12". In fact, I would say that a Gallant is the best choice for a Freeblade since you can choose 2 of burdens 4-6 which don't affect Gallants much since you won't be doing much shooting with them.

 

You can then choose a good Quality like Legendary hero (a free reroll every turn). Whilst I would prefer Household traits, a Freeblade Gallant works pretty well too.

[Zogash]

Regarding the CP debacle, I'm sure GW will have to faq that wording - requiring three (!) big knights just to get those crucial 6 CP makes pure IK just not fun to play - or play against - at our group's most common 1250p level. Sure, you can squeeze in three Questoris knights of most variants - e.g. three Gallants, each with Stormspears, can be hilariously OP at that level... but it's very hard to make it work to both players' satisfaction: if they build a take-all-comers-army, you clobber them - if they stack up on AT, they clobber you - not much long term replay value there... and not being able to field any Armigers or Dominus..eses at all unless you're willing to play with just 3 CP - that blows.

 

I get that they had to prevent people from just taking three (scary effective) Helverins for an easy +3CP, but I think that could have been easily achieved by requiring at least one Questoris or Dominus knight per detachment to unlock the CP, not a ridiculous three. That drives up the cost, while still giving people room to be creative when building a list that's fun to play with, and against.

[CaptainMarsh]

Played a 3k game. Brought a Castellan with Cawl's Wrath, a Warden with Judgement, and a Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet. Castellan had Ion Bulwark, Gallant had Landstrider. Also brought 3 Helverins and 3 Warglaives and a small Guard Battalion with 2 tanks, fit in with one point to spare. House Raven. 

Faced a Guard Armored Regiment. It was all tanks, some Primaris Psykers, two Basilisks, 3 Hellhounds, a Baneblade, and the SH with a Volcano Cannon. We ended up with 11 drops, I dropped first, I went first...

Called it two turns later when he had one tank left on the field. The Castellan one-rounded the Shadowsword(I think it is that one), and then one-rounded the Baneblade the next turn. The Gallant Turn 1 Charged and destroyed all three Hellhounds and turn 2 charged and destroyed a tank commander and a tank. Helverins tore up the Basilisks, Warglaives took down some tanks and took almost all the shots he had left at the bottom of 1 (he had nothing left soon after). The Warden did his part. 

All three Relics did their part. Cawl's Wrath did a total of 18 damage to a SH each turn. In two turns I had 12 Volcanon Cannon shots. Judgement fired a total of 9 times (two turns and a silly overwatch), hit 8 times. Wrecked shop, very effective. And the Paragon Gauntlet...worked as intended. 
I lost 3 Warglaives and five Guardsmen, two to Morale. The Gallant had taken 6 wounds (4 mortals from 3 Hellhounds blowing up, 2 during Overwatch), the Warden had taken 4 from a Lascannon, and the Castellan had taken 1. The Helverins were unharmed. 

[Black Knight]

I want to cry for your opponent but I think they must be right now oO

[BluejayJunior]

I'd be fine with requiring 2 Questoris/Dominus Knights for the CP. That is still an investment in the Knights, but gives more freedom for some Armigers or allies. With a Dominus and 2 Questoris in a list, you really only have room for about 3 Armigers and no allies. 

[Tyriks]

Or require 3 Questoris/Dominus Knights in your army instead of detachment. Then if you are bringing 2 SHDs in a 2000pt game you can still get 9cp without allies. That would still be limiting because you wouldn't be able to afford a unit of 3 Armigers for things like Sally Forth.

[Emicus]

Minimum 1 questoris/dominus is good too..

 

Still 700+ points for 3 CP.

[Zogash]

Or require 3 Questoris/Dominus Knights in your army instead of detachment. Then if you are bringing 2 SHDs in a 2000pt game you can still get 9cp without allies. That would still be limiting because you wouldn't be able to afford a unit of 3 Armigers for things like Sally Forth.

 

While that would help in 1850pt+ games, it still wouldn't do anything about the pitiful CP in smaller games of 1000-1500pt.

[Tyriks]

That's true. My group only plays at 2000pts so I hadn't considered that. Maybe a sliding scale like the detachment limits. But one big knight per detachment is easier.

[noigrim]

The three knight rule to get traditions is offputting, thought to get a single knight, now I need 3+

[Marshal Reinhard]

You could go the freeblade route if you're just intending to get one. Makes perhaps the most sense thematically for a single roaming knight as an ally too.

[Stray]

The three knight rule to get traditions is offputting, thought to get a single knight, now I need 3+

 

If it helps, you can get traditions via a single Knight and two Armigers - or even just three Armigers, though that limits your options far more.

 

Obviously you'll get no CP from the detachment this way, but you will get all the other benefits.

[bigmic66]

My twin shadowsword list got beat by the twin volcano knights using the mechanicum traits to get back up at end of turn then fire at full efficiency for 3cp. So good