Iron Warriors in Unification Wars

[Honda]

Apologies upfront for my ignorance.

 

So the questions I would like answered are:

 

1. Did the Iron Warriors conduct operations during the Unification Wars?

 

2. If yes, were they called the Iron Warriors, or did their chapter have a different name?

 

3. Were they known as the assault/siege/techno specialists that they are today?

 

4. Anything else interesting about them during  this period?

 

Reasons for asking: I'm working on our 2019 campaign story arc and having the IW operate during the Unification Wars would be very helpful.

 

Cheers,

[Michaelum]

There you go: 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Warriors

[Slips]

*pulls out copy of extermination*

 

Uhhhh...

 

Lets see:

1. They were founded during the closing stages of the Unification Wars so they might have seen some action. Their first muster grounds was atop the wreckage of a recidivist fortress on the Auro Plateau of Sek-Amrak. Also notes that they first fought on Terra against the final resisting elements.
2. None officially but was known as the Corpse Grinders by the Imperial Army. 
3. Essentially, yes.
4. Their section in HH3: Extermination goes into better detail but yes there are some interesting tidbits. The wikis might have them but in short:

• Battle Honors of Cydo-Tyre Orbital, The Zidec Archipelago, Ice Station Echo and Mehr Yasht
• Under direct command of the Emperor to break the backs of the Litho-Gholem armies of the War Witches
• Quite a few of their original terran recruits were actually supposed to go to the Emperors Children but due to their Geneseed Problems were sent to the IVth

[Honda]

Outstanding, thank you both very much!

[Skalpynock]

Of note is that they already had the four techno-cultist societies. The Dodekatheon were the Brethren of Stone, the Apolakron the Brethren of Steel, the Kheledakos the Brethren of Cold, and the Lyssatra the Brethren of Thunder.

[Sandlemad]

I think the Corpse Grinders epithet only really spread when Perturabo took command and... did his thing. Extermination has a quote from a history which mentions their "proud steel banners" during the early off-Earth conflicts so maybe some of their later livery was already there?

 

Might be worth noting that while they only took part in actions towards the end of the Unification Wars - like every legion bar the first - their geneseed had a lower rejection rate than most so their numbers increased more rapidly than the other legions. Same for the proto-White Scars. As such the IVth and Vth legions seem to have been the largest non-1st astartes forces fighting in the last few significant Terran conflicts.

 

As Slips said their muster grounds were in Sek-Amrak and some of their first recruits were drawn from the "warlike gun-tribes, blood grieves and Tek-enclaves in the surrounding area", an area which quickly became a loyal imperial heartland. Hard to say where that is exactly. I've seen folks point to South/Central America (the name being a bastardisation) or Iran (plateau, the name Sek matching a town) but it's a bit of a crapshoot.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Legions all had grey/steel armour before unification with their Primarch.

 

Also of note is that they had a reputation even at the earliest stages of being an uncomplaining workhorse Legion. They were seen as the perfect "standard" Legion, in a way.

[Ryltar Thamior]

this miiiight be a bit about the thread-necro threshold but in the name of helping a frater, and because I didn't see the thread at the time ... I hope, regardless, that the usefulness of my reply [should it be found so] should make up for this potential transgression. 

Yes, the IVth were active during the late Unification Wars; although it is questionable they'd be *entirely* familiar in characterization to the later Iron Warriors, due to both the rather different operational considerations inherent in that conflict , especially for Marines [i.e. "we have reserves" is not as much of a thing, as the Astartes recruitment pool , despite little incidences such as the XVIIIth's assault on the Tempest Galleries and such, is rather limited due to apocalyptic wars messing with human genomic integrity in many populations [hence, incidentally, why Iran is such a popular recruiting ground - the Achaemenid Empire *not* having been repeatedly nuked [etc.] nearly as recently as much of the rest of the (still-habitable) planet], and limited *still* further by the fact that the implantation and ongoing Astartes-fictation process is uh .. "still having some bugs worked out", so to speak - which constrains both the relative speed and success-rate of Astartes creation [although arguably, the accelerated Astartes creation made especially possible following Primarch reunification produces *inferior* Marines in some respects ... hence in part why the Heresy happens .. but that's just my personal speculation on the subject]], as well as the specific citation for the IVth having lost much of its original culture and such in the immediate years following its departure from Terra [although it kept the organizational pattern laid down for it *at* Terra at the outset of the Crusade, this would quite likely not actually have applied, for obvious reasons, *prior* to the Crusade leaving from Terra] . 

Now, as I have said elsewhere [i may be one of those pushing the "Iran" line which Sandlemad notes in his post above], I am of the avowed belief that the IVth Legion in Late Unification had much to do with Iran. My reasoning for this is threefold; and I'll break up this post into the relevant parts with sub-headings because it's uh ... it's turned out rather bigger than I thought ... 

First part covers some of the linkages between what we know of the Unification-era IVth with a certain historical Persian empire, in terms of names and other elements of fluff-characterization [followed by me getting a bit carried away suggesting potential incorporations therefrom to *further* flesh things out]; second part situates the IVth in the context of my own theory [and it's a pretty good theory imo] of the 'unfolding' of the Unification Wars based on what we know from FW Black Books and Black Library publications etc; and the third ... well, i've forgotten. It may come back to me. 

The Historical Sassanid Connection - A IVth Built Upon An Empire

First, and perhaps most prominently, we have the profusion of Sassanid-etc. terms in the Iron Warriors' ranks and societies other bits and pieces - *especially* those elements which *were* very much in place *pre* Olympia-fication. The best example of which being the Stor-Bezashk , which have undergone something of a worthwhile linguistic shift from their place as er .. combat veterinarians for the Sassanid cavalry, through to maintaining the IVth Legion's artillery if memory serves correctly. [indeed, while there are, from memory, some elements which appear Greek which fall into this category as well, the fact of the matter is that given the substantial Grecification which had taken place in Persia following Alexander means that this, too, rather strengthens the Iranian connection, rather than perhaps supplanting it as one might instead presume.] 

Although now that I think upon it, there is also a Unification [of Sol system, to be fair] victory , already mentioned at least once in this thread, which is *further* proof in this area - "Mehr Yasht", upon Venus apparently. Which I would not be *at all* surprised to find took its name from the "Mihr Yasht" hymn of the Zoroastrians - the 'veneration of Mithra' [which, given Mithra's association with light, would make for an interesting way to refer to a campaign on Venus, the brightest object in the heavens other than the Moon; and, come to think of it, the Persian experience against theoretical [and possibly actuallly somewhat real] adversaries and nearby tribes lead by women , would further assist with this notion of "War-Witches" , who were being fought by the nascent Imperium at same] [oh and in terms of the other Unification or shortly after battle-honours cited, "Cydo-Tyre" is most probably a reference to the historical Sidon & Tyre, two cites in Lebanon about 40 km apart, and which very much wound up under periodic Persian or other Imperial domination (possibly with a side order of the Cyclades - not to be confused, in this instance, with thousand island dressing, despite being Greek]; and I'm drawing a bit of a blank on the "Zidex Archipelago"  - but would consider it somewhat possible that it's a corruption [ha]/derivation of Azi Dahak ; meanwhile, the only "Ice Station" I know of offhand is "Zebra" :P ]. 


It would certainly be very characterful and in keeping with this trend for you to do similar things with other historic elements from the Sassanid military to 'flesh out' the Unification Era IVth . Particularly considering the well-regarded abilities of said military in the context of siege warfare :P (seriously - check out the number and sheer scale of the Walls these guys were putting up about the place)

In fact, I'm getting a few ideas now in this department, including tamga-heraldry for small unit subformations, the utilization of Asvaran as a potential pre-designate for Astartes [or, for that matter, proto-Astartes - more on that later], Clibinarii and such to refer to early forms of fully-enclosed power armour [perhaps not even 'Mk.II proper', but more refined and with actual powered legs [seriously, i get that it's cool and alll to have unpowered legs on Mk.I , but it's uh .. well .. it's not the most sensible idea ever given the sheer weight involved of an exoskelton for only the top half ot be so] [i mean seriously - the idea of referring to an Astartes or other  trooper in fully-enclosed and questionably flexible [perhaps vaguely akin to Mk.III or even proto-terminator plate] powered armour as "camp stove" .. when the Astartes in question is *well* out of hearing distance, of course! . is both amusing and sounds appropriate to me :P - not least because no doubt the rather imperfect armours of the day *would* likely be belching exhaust in a manner not entirely unreminiscent of a cooking fire !] [and, of course, on a closely relaed note - the Grivpanvar] , Spahbed and related terms for command officers especially of the Imperial Army [there's a closely related term for a cavalry chief - Aspbed - which may a) be more directly appropriate for (Proto-)Astartes; and b) now that i think about it, may actually form a viable in-universe etymological precedent for the derivation of "Astartes" [considering this latter pseudo-latin term's .. vexed relationship with historical latin iirc]] [the commander-of-fortification connotations of 'Argbed' would also be quote useful here for the IVth] , , while also raiding the ranks of Sassanid weapons tech and terminology for suitable names for patterns of ballistic or blade etc. hardware [like this - the Kontos]

There is also, obviously, space for mention in appropriately 'localized' terminology for a certain ... imperial ... guard , so to speak, numbering ten thousand members, bedecked in gold, and of 'immortal' characterization, if you get my drift :P [yes, I am aware that there is a subject of some disagreement as to when the Custodes actually turn up in the timeline - some sources say at/post the Unification Wars; others, that they were around pre-Astartes and indeed formed part of the templating work for same - particullary, interestingly, the XXth legion - but I digress] [also, these guys , the Pushtigban , potentially in the context of Companions - note the "sacrificers of their lives" sobriquet for the sub-unit ] 

Perhaps include a little historical shaped-like-itself reference by having the chronicling of the early IVth's offices and formations and outfitting take place in the context of a late 30th millennium Notitia Dignitatum :P 

Also, if you wanted to inject a certain ... 'fantastical' vibe into the force and accounting, then there's no reason you couldn't draw inspiration from certain of the bits and pieces depicted in The 300 and its Athenian-oriented sequel. I am thinking in particular of those rather odd alchemist bomb-throwers who turn up for all of three seconds in the first movie; however even despite hte ... bizarity of the Immortals , those Zhayedan i've mentioned earlier as a potential way to refer ot hte Custodes , as depicted in the film ... there is an obvious and logical place within IVth legion and broader Astartes warfare for ... heavily armed/armoured highly competent stealth-capable killers. Indeed, there is a log floating around somewhere here on B&C, I *think* by BCK/Brother-Chaplain Kage and possibly also Hyenidae  {I may be misspelling that august name :/ ] , featuring IVth Legion assault efforts on Detroit which makes intrinsic use of *just* such a specimine - although I can't remember whether that was an VIIIth legion proto Astartes seconded to a IVth legion proto Astartes lead kill team/infiltration squad. Will have to go hunting for the link later to share. 

Said film's use of .. odd looking rhino-like beast or whatever it was, as well as the actual-historical utilization of war-elephants may either suggest the incorporation of *similar* beast-handling expertise ; or you could instead reinterpret them as large-scale war-engines of a siege or armoured tank or transport nature. 

Meanwhile, in terms of Imperial Army/Army of Unification levees ... if you want to really emphasize the 'corpse-grinder' style approach, then once again Sassanid military history comes to your aid - the Paygan class of conscript-infantry pretty much *exactly* fits the bill in terms of both its employment and its morale and equipment issues lending both to and from same. 

ALthough given the way both the Army of Unification and the Sassanid military appear to have worked, it would also be advisable to include reference and especial mention for various formations of mortal or non-Astartes genehanced [and therefore still arguably mortal] human-ish troops drawn from various other close-by regions under nascent Imperial/Unity control with their own martial traditions and specializations and who would be of a superior class and clade of quality to those aforementioned teeming conscripts. [a potential 'counterpoint' here might be something like the rather more modern-day Basij as it existed around the time of the early-1980s fighting about Basra during the Iran-Iraq war ... wherein despite the arguable quality of training and equipment and even style of operation not being at all very distinguishable from those aforementioned Paygan forces from a millennium and a half earlier ... the sheer level of *positive* morale and fanatical determination forms a huge qualitative difference in some respects.] 

Good potential includes might be the Daylamites [perhaps equipped with some form of incendiary munitions to simulate their naptha javelins], Sogdians, Sarmatians [and yes, I know that the ethonym isn't supposed to have been a reflection of their supposed penchant for scale-mail ... but there's no reason that needs apply to their 30th millennium analogue-descendent people :P Grab some inspiration from the Easterlings depicted in Peter Jackson's take on Lord of the Rings, and some scale pattern armour like the Alpha Legion headhunter torsos, and go to town! Then lay siege to that town, and claim it in the name of the Emperor! FOR UNITY! ], various Central Asian or further East peoples - such as Scythians, or even Amazons [there's some rather interesting theoretical work in this area potentially linking them back to the Sarmatians , and this could provide an interesting opportunity to work in something akin to the Geno Five-Two Chiliad of LEGION fame, given this posited female-command/rule approach] potentially emphasizing fast hit-and-run cavalry or jump infantry to really capture that 'wind' feel [hm, Alexander's "troops that can fly", have just struck me as potentially *very* useful for certain sorts of siege warfare - although whether with Reiver style grapplers or crampons .. or actual jump-pack capacity, is another matter], and perhaps also Arab [Assassins, maybe?] and/or Levantine or even Mesopotamian/Sumerian and (of course) Greek and/or Anatolian incorporations. [bonus points if you go anachronistic and work in *Assyrian* siege-specialists for the win!]. [in terms of large-scale siege engines, apart from the ones which the Sassanids et co actually *did* have, you could always bring in some Turkic vibes 

This is without getting into the many and various peoples cited in FW materials for the relevant areas which do not precisely correspond with ancient ethnography - those "gun-tribes" for instance [along with the "blood grieves" and "tek-enclaves" mentioned elsewhere in the same sentence of their Black Book writeup], or the Xeric dust-raiders [i have my own treatment of those based around a combination of Scythian and Indo-Iranian elements but *Conan voice* that is another story for another time]. 

As a point of interest on this note, not only would "Gond-i-Shahanshah" be an interesting potential rendering for "Army of Unification" [it actually works out at, obviously, far closer to "Army of the Emperor" or "Imperial Army"] ... but I would not be *at all* surprised if it shared an etymological coterminity with the Sanskrit term "Gana", and the Greek/Latin term "Genus". Which, in the case of the Sanskrit, has come to mean an array of things ranging from 'people' [in the sense of 'GanaRajya' working out as something akin to 'people's state' or 'popular republic'] , through to 'tribe' , but also a 'company' in the sense of a martial body of men - perhaps harkening back to the days wherein multi-ethnic armies of empires would be formulated on the basis of a building-blocks of fighting formations comprised of a particular ethnic group each [this plays out in both a) Shaivite theology/mythology, and not at all coincidentally, b) my own Terran-veteran IVth Legion , with the references to the "BhutaGana", which are something like ... indeed, arguably *are* the Einherjar of Odin. But I digress. Again. Although it's kinda relevant, as we shall soon see] .

I've taken you on this etymological tangent because it would certainly be an interesting way to refer to a military force which was not simply "The Emperor's Army" ... but rather, one which was perceived as being a race, a breed apart, and perhaps even having some level of [symbolic or otherwise] patrilineal connection to Him. Or, in other words, exactly what you can very plausibly regard Astartes, Proto-Astartes, Custodians and/or Thunder Warriors as having with the Emperor. [although as Primarchs would be unknown at this stage outside of *very select close confidantes of the Emperor and the associated project-staff* , the 'Grandfather' situation of the Emperor relative to Astartes would be similarly unknown and unquantifiable - it is instead posited here in the sense, as is familiar from 40k, of the transhuman warriors in question being the Emperor's Angels .. even in this avowedly secular/literally-militantly-atheist age]. 

Also, as a brief series of notes which don't quite fit inot hte above, but instead refer largely to Crusade era bits anad pieces - 

I also do not think it coincidental that even after the reunification with Perturabo, we find mention of the "satrapies" of the Iron Warriors - a term which, while it is also in 'conventional' English, has always had specific connexion to the Persians; and further, given the culture-of-origin for "Cataphract", the subsequent enthusiasm for the Cataphractoi pattern of terminator armour amidst the IVth, even notwithstanding its actual characteristics, would make additional sense given this . I'm unsure about the *precise* specifics, but I also believe that hte "Galibed" formation of mortal auxilia attached to the IVth through a good chunk of the Crusade is *also* of Iranian inflexion - however i'm yet to flesh this out properly ['working theory' atm is the '-bed' suffix is the same as that affixed to officers , e.g. "Spahbed", "Navbed" etc. ; while the Gali- element may *possibly* derive from a Phrygian eunuch sect ... however I've just stumbled across a mention for a "gulu-band" in Persian referring to "a slaveset at liberty", so will keep probing...] ... oh and speaking of mortal auxilia ... again, post-Unification by quite the margin, but "Selucid" Thorakites, eh? [bit of a 'less direct' reference here, I think, which is drawn from something somebody said on B&C a few years back .. insofar as Alexander's mother was "Olympia" - the Selucids being pointedly recruited *from* the mortal population of Olympia, and also being uh .. one of the main descendent empires of Alexander the Great .. yee] 

[as applies the Dodekatheon - well, apart from the aforementioned direct-porting of the 'Twelve [Olympian] Gods' from Greek mythology, entirely appropriate for the Grecified Persians post-Alexander, I'm still looking into just what this "Warcaste Metistraad" might be. Initial postulation would be that it might be a corruption/derivation of "Magisterium" - itself a derivation from Iranian "Magi"; and while it's not a great lead, the notion that hte "Metis" missile in somewhat common Iranian and Iranian-affiliated [e.g. Hezbollah, Syrian military] use , may have something to do with it, also plays upoon my mind, particularly in light of the word "Raad" , meaning "thunder" in Persian, which has found itself affixed to a number of Iranian missiles and artillery-pieces; or, for that matter, "Mersad", meaning "ambush"; actually, come to think of it, the Greek "Metis" - "wisdom/skill/craft" iirc a mother of Athena by Zeus, possibly mashed up with er .. "(t)raad" in the sense of the "Landsraad" of the Dune setting, may be closer to the mark; or it could even be a Mithridates derivative] ] [i'm thinking about the Lyssatra at the moment, and while there are a few "atras" to be found , i'm rapidly running out of energy to continue .. so uh .. might look into later] 

Anyway, that's *most* of part one done, albeit imperfectly. I'd initially intended to then move straight on to Part Two , but like I say, running low on energy, so will leave it a bit and come back. 

Suffice to say it will both help to support my contention vis a vis the "Auro Plateau" being situated somewehre in Persia , as well as being of potential usefulness for your Unification Wars relevant "interesting stuff" question, point four. 

which, come to think of it, might have been what the 'third section' was going to be. 

 

[Honda]

Well, first off RT, thank you very much for all of that thought and analysis and theory. I did read all of it and felt like I was stepping in front of a fire hose on full, only holding a thimble.

 

So, while you are taking a pause to reload, I will be digesting. There is a tremendous amount of information there and although I would love to use it all, I will have to basically sift through all of this and settle on some main concepts.

 

I will say that your timing is impeccable as some of this information will be used in my Kairos thread (WIP) and is extremely relevant to ongoing  efforts. Very timely.

 

In the meantime, I shall eagerly await your next installment and wonder where you will take us next.

 

I *think* by BCK/Brother-Chaplain Kage and possibly also Hyenidae  {I may be misspelling that august name :/ ] , featuring IVth Legion assault efforts on Detroit which makes intrinsic use of *just* such a specimine - although I can't remember whether that was an VIIIth legion proto Astartes seconded to a IVth legion proto Astartes lead kill team/infiltration squad. Will have to go hunting for the link later to share.

 

 

If you are able to locate this thread, I'd be very interested in reading it. My general impression of Hyenidae's work is that it revolved around the IVth and a lot of their efforts during the Siege of Terra, but I also got into one of those threads rather late in the game.

 

In any case, whatever you find will be appreciated.

 

Cheers,

[Ryltar Thamior]

Thanks :D Glad it's appreciated and ever surprised that it all gets read :P I uh ... i ran a word-counter over it this morning and realized with some surprise that i'd somehow cranked out a little over three thousand words on the subject. A not insigificant chunk of which, of course, is me thinking out loud about material for my own Unification Wars project which turned up in my head while checking my references for some of the stuff I'd said, but hey - grist for the mill. Whomever's mill :D 

As applies fire-hoses and thimbles ... I guess that's a subtle indication that the work in question [yours, mine, others' entirely] is uh ... holey :P 

Anyway, I did a bit of googling today before/after crashing out for like three hours, and *did* manage to find the following: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309361-turpe-et-dicere/page-6 

I thoroughly encourage a comprehensive read-through of the thread, because there's just ... so much excellent material there from not just a modelling perspective, but a 'conceptual' and even fiction-writing one. The page linked has the start of the relevant IVth legion bits and pieces ["Chapter 2.3"] [the next part of that story being on like the last page, and posted just a few months ago]; although ther's quite a wealth of VIIIth Legion ['Crimson Sons'], XIVth Legion, and XVIIth Legion material elsewehre in the log [the VIIIth piece writeups in particular stick in my mind]. [As a point of further interest, there's also Hyaenidae [yus! spelled it *right* this time!] having a stab at a most interesting Imperial Army formation in miniature and fictional form which touches on Unification elements iirc - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312141-3rd-bjaha-sur-caballeros/ ] [also, now that i remember, it would appear that what's happened is Hyaenidae's IVth legion bits and pieces from the Heresy/Siege of Terra .. well, some of them, i guess, we get to see their 'start' during Unification it would appear based around some very similar names and suchlike. Which makes senese, given the motivation for at least one of the rebel IVth I can recall from the HH log you are mentioning]. 

Now in *addition* to this ... I would also potentially suggest taking a leaf through some of The Observer's logs - there's one in particular which is aimed rather directly at Unification-era bits and pieces [ http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326334-a-war-forgotten-tales-of-unificationterran-magos/ ] although I possibly recall some of his other ones *also* touching upon the subject [*might* have been the Beneath Terra] one. 

And, on top of *that*, there's material of potential salience/relevance/use in several EdT threads - the Horus Heresy Kill Teams [http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286355-eds-heresy-kill-teams-custodians-and-ruins/]  one sadly is now mostly missing its pictures, but the fluff-pieces he's written up yet remain [i particularly recommend, for reasons which i'll cover in PART TWO of my writeup on your question, the one he produced to go with his Thunder Warriors], a number of which have Unification Wars relevant material contained therein. He's also really gone to town with Unification on his current thread [there's a B&C iteration of it as well, but here's the Ammobunker one - http://s3.zetaboards.com/The_Ammobunker/topic/9047928/1/ - I uh .. I have another essay-length comment around comparative Indo-European mythography that i keep meaning to finish and post on it in relation to his use of Slavic-derived elements for his Unity /  Thunder Warriors .. but haven't gotten around to finishing it :/ ] ; again, i link these not just because there's some very cool modelling work going on therein, but because of the conceptual-work he's putting in around fleshing out the setting to situate his models *in*. oh, come to think of it, i also thinik he was doing some Terrawatt Clan bits and pieces awhile back as well, although i'm not sure how far those got .. 

And 'finally' [for the moment], there's also the Unification Wars threads both on Ammobunker [ http://s3.zetaboards.com/The_Ammobunker/topic/9031091/3/ - this also contains some of my thoughts on material from Master of Mankind which substantiates an "Indo-European Bronze Age" vibe around the Emperor and His ongoing projects...] and here on B&C [ http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336006-vox-stellarum-the-unification-wars/ ] , which myself and Umbral are running. 

Anyway ... there's a few points of interest and/or eye-mind candy for you to look over; and i'll get cracking on the next parts of my Writeup. 

Oh, before i forget, in terms of Black Library offerings - I'd also found i) The Outcast Dead and ii) Prospero Burns to be particularly useful in helping to get a 'view' of at least some parts of the Wars of Unification [not to mention Master of Mankind]; although there are doubtless other novels and short stories [The Last Church, anyone?] which I am forgetting to mention here. 

[b1soul]

"Litho-Gholem"...I love it

[Ryltar Thamior]

Alright, I'm going to try and keep PART TWO relatively brief - both because I er ... went a bit overboard with Part One [what can I say - I'm IVth. I see an opening ... I get the sudden urge to build a wall .. of text .. on it], and because I'm having a bit of trouble remembering some of the material in greater precise detail. 

Now with that out of the way ... 

My own interpolation of how the Unification Wars likely progressed is based upon several key strands of evidence. The first of which, obviously, is the snippits we have directly and expllicitly from the various relevant Black Library novels and FW Black Books. 

Now, these are interesting - because while they tell us a bit about who the 'main players' are at that stage in Earth's history, they don't really do a spectacular job at *explicitly* setting out much of anything beyond a few names, some locations, and other 'secondary' datapoints which we have to do quite some 'extrapolation' work from to actually get the sort of information you're after for your campaign writeup .. I er .. imagine. 

And yes, this is all arcing back towards the IVth and their role in Unification, so bear with me. 

So to state it plainly: what we 'know' is the following:

The 'key' non-Unity powers active on Terra in this part of M30, which the Emperor and His Forces wind up having bellicosity with, are the Yndonesic Bloc, the Pan-Pacific Empire, and Ursh. To these, we can of course add quite a number of more 'minor' powers who're hostile - including the Urartu Kingdom , the subjugation of which forms the 'official' close of Unification; as well as other groupings to the north and west of there including the Caucasus Wastes polity, various European states or confederations [including neo- French, British, and German equivalents, as well as Nordic, and Mediterranean states], and further beyond that, various states in the modern-day Americas.

We also 'know', based around material from those aforementioned Black Library and Black Book sources, that the 'inner elements' of the nascent Imperium have a perhaps surprising degree of connection to North India [c.f an array of stuff that Arik Taranis says about what he was up to, and some of his legendary achievements prior ot the Battle of Mt Ararat ; as well as the impressive frequency of Sanskrit and Sanskrit-/Hindu- derived materials in these elements as well] [and, perhaps most tellingly, the fact that the way in which Taranis and his second refer  to one another using military ranks [subedar & Jemadar] derived from the armies of this area in the last few centuries [they're of Mughal inflexion, although were also used in the subsequent British-controlled army, and have been maintained to some extent in successor militaries including hte Nepali, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and previously the Indian army. This tells us that the Unification forces built in a rather literal sense by the Emperor himself were likely significantly culturally influenced by this area, thus further supporting the idea of it being very important to the early phases of Unification building up to the significant conquest of much of the world and the rollout of the Astartes] .

[there is also a non-zero chance that the fact that Sanskrit and Sanskrit-ized terms keep showing up places is because the Emperor's own native language is , if not Proto-Indo-European .. then at least something pretty close to it in temporal and linguistic senses [it's cited as being a PIE precursor dialect to Hittite iirc in Master of Mankind] ... which may therefore mean that the Emperor and associated personnel are just using something which feels more 'natural' and 'comfortable' .  But that is just a bit of a footnote theory. ] 

In addition to cultural and linguistic elements [which i've detailed iirc in something i wrote up awhile ago on one of our logs - i can see about fishing it out if necessary] there's also the evident fact that the Emperor had been active in, and building up a 'home base' in this area for quite some time prior to the Unification Wars' conclusion. We can tell this because the Khangba Marwu was used to house quite a Rogue's Gallery of the senior figures of those aforementioned states subjugated by the Emperor's rollout of Unification. And while it's not explicitly stated that the Emperor had a *direct* hand in its initial construction, a millennium prior to the Heresy, this nevertheless supports an Imperial presence in the area for quite some time. 

Which should be *entirely* unsurprising considering it appears inordinately likely that the Emperor's ongoing gene-crafting work which gave rise to the Thunder Warriors, Custodes, and eventually the Primarchs and Astartes themselves, *also* appears to have been taking place in his Himalayan sanctum - again, a process which must surely have taken centuries.

[another brief side-note: in our research institute's head-canon, the Emperor is arguably pretty close to Lord Shiva, and not simply because He is demonstrably Space Odin [i have another rant abou that for another time] ; which would *also* support a Himalayan demesne ... along witih, of course, the seriously frightening [semi-literal 'terror troops'] army/retinue, and an array of other things] 

Now, further to all of the above, I have a bit of a theory that - with some exceptions - the numbering of the Legions may potentially reflect their initial rollout ... which matters in the context of a) this thread, and b) my "Iranian" supposition, because that would place the IVth as among the first wave or two of the Emperor's Astartes. And would therefore further mean that the initial course of the War of Unification would have been a *westward* movement [although in reality it likely expanded in a number of directions simultaneously] - to encounter the Achaemenid Empire, who are cited as very early on 'patching over' to the Unity project , as well as the supposed initial combat deployment of the IVth ,and recruitment from, 'gun-tribes and such-like in a similar area. 

But in any case, from the relevant portion of North India [i say "India", technically speaking this would also encompass areas presently claimed by Pakistan, and likely also China - the Khangba Marwu is iirc in Gilgit-Baltistan] , there are a finite array of logical directions in which to prosecute a war. One of these, to be sure, is to the east, down across the Gangetic Plain, and from thence into present-day SOuth-East Asia, or up toward China across Sikkim, Assam and such. 

However, the potentially more interesting, and furthermore, better supported routes are two lying to the west - that of heading up through the Khyber Pass and via Afghanistan to the 'gap' into Central Asia via which the Indo-European migration took place going in the other direction perhaps four thousand years or more before present ; and that of pressing westward across the Iranian plateau, before hitting the Zagros mountains, and coming down in a swathe through modern-day Iraq, Syria and suchlike, pending an arc upward into Europe or pressing on downward and hten either west or south to go through "Nordafrik" or whatever it's called in the fluff, or further into Africa itself.

Probably all of the above. 

This would nicely fit with 'established' fluff - any of the Westward possibiliteis, I mean - as it would allow for the 'holdouts' in the eastern end of Anatolia, and the "Caucasus Wastes" to their north, to remain 'bypassed' by the Emperor's ongoing forces - and it would, to a certain extent, make sense to do so [minus the possibility of them launching raids into supply-lines going past them, of course, in the manner of hill-folk bedevilling expanding empires since time immemorial], due to the evident severity of conditions entailed in attempting to bring htem to heel [seriously -hte Tempest Galleries should show how difficult the Caucasus Wastes was in this regard] . With, presuming the 'Central Asian' Gap route is pursued, providing ample opportunity for a relatively early connection to be made between the Emperor and the Terrawatt Clan located in the Urals. 

I am not sure if there is any detailed material about Mesopotamia during Unification [although iirc Kasper Hawser is from the region - which may have had a Tower of Babel style thing going up, perhaps] ; however the mountains running down present-day Iran's western flank all the way from its border wtih the former Soviet Union to the Persian Gulf's meeting with the Indian Ocean would present *quite* the obstacle due to the prevailing local climactic and geographical conditions [hence, inter alia, part of the reason for a number of previous military efforts going *the other way* , and heading *into* Iran from present-day Iraq, floundering as they did] . 

Although it is possible that a) local geography has changed slightly, or can be changed - e.g. by utilizing a nuclear or other weapon to blast a rather large hole in said mountain-range if necessary, or other infrastructural works which may have eventuated in the ensuing er .. twenty eight thousand years or so. ; b) that the drying up of much of the world's oceans has opened up considerable additional planar areas of potentially relatively easyer campaigning , to the south of India - the Gulf of Khambat, for instance, may be now largely dry, as might the Persian Gulf itself - thus presenting a viable alternate pathway Westwards . However, ih vaen't actually bothered to check the underwater hydrography of the sea floor [wait, i tihink i mena topography .. ] so er .. Caveat Cartographor on that score. Does make for some potentially interesting pathways *east* toward the Yndonesic Bloc, and south toward Orioc on Antarctica. 

[oh and a bit of a side-note now that i've brought up Orioc - I haven't chekced the dates on it, if any are even given, but there is a rather reasonable chance that that battle takes place whle the thunder warriors are still around; which would hterefore , potentially , mean that the pattern of the Imperial Heralds being used as 'diplomats' after a sort - emissaries, anyway , and also special operations troopers, may acutally hold true in a sense for other Legions in the same time-period. That is to say, in part no doubt due to their relatively small numbers, the Marines might have these more speicalized functions while hte Thunder Warriors and Army of Unification take care of the mroe conventioanl fighting, etc.] 

Anyway, there's likely quite a bit of material I'm forgetting here; and as ever, I welcome scrutiny of my efforts at .. extrapolation .. to see wehre they might be improved. 

But for the purposes of your initial set of questions, and anything else you mgiht be doing which requires a a *sliiightly* more fleshed out Unification Wars than we have at present ... the above should provide more than a few fruitful avenues for expansion [ahem, pardon pun]. 

So with regard ot the IVth, you'd quite likely be able to plausibly have them in action even preceding Unity coming to the Iranian Plateau; and definitel yfollowing that 'first muster ground' establishment .... heading up to the north, and/or the west, in those aforementioned routes I cited above. 

Which is pretty cool, bceause it opens up the possibility of a reasonable number of based-on-a-historical-kingdom-or-city-or-tribe M30 adversaries for them to potentially make a mess of all the way through Afghanistan, and Central Asia and/or the Middle East; before hitting any of the 'big player' or even soem of the 'minor player' states cited above in Europe, Russia, or the East. 

In fac, i think from memory, that the BCK short-story on a VIIIth Legion proto-astartes which was in one of the threads I linked you to above does *exactly* this , i think based on Oxiana / Transoxiana ; and the EdT log I linked has made stirling use of a Greek-origin Central Asian state whose name escapes me momentarily in a similar manner. 

And there's definitel ya few historical keeps, fortreses, Gates and such in the area and on Iranian frontier which you could draw upon for further inspiration. 

Hope that helps. 

[Honda]

Thank you RT, once again for an excellent and thought provoking presentation.

 

You've given me some excellent food for thought and accidentally, reaffirmed the possibility of one yet to be revealed story points for the IVth in our campaign. All without knowing it, bravo! :)

 

So thank you good sir.

 

And now, much like after a very robust meal, I shall sit back and digest. So much to think about.

 

Cheers,

[Son of Carnelian]

The Legions all had grey/steel armour before unification with their Primarch.

Not at all. The Salamanders, Thousand Sons, Night Lords, and Dark Angels all had a color scheme in place before reuniting with their Primarch. These schemes may have changed with these reunions, but they did exist.

 

I suspect the Iron Warriors never painted their armor because they likely didn't see the point in it. The kind of warfare they engaged in would have quickly wiped away any of their heraldry.

[bluntblade]

Adding to that last point, they conducted themselves similarly under Perturabo. Not to the extent of the Death Guard, but non-essential maintenance was only undertaken at the end of a campaign.

[Ryltar Thamior]

 

The Legions all had grey/steel armour before unification with their Primarch.

Not at all. The Salamanders, Thousand Sons, Night Lords, and Dark Angels all had a color scheme in place before reuniting with their Primarch. These schemes may have changed with these reunions, but they did exist.

 

I suspect the Iron Warriors never painted their armor because they likely didn't see the point in it. The kind of warfare they engaged in would have quickly wiped away any of their heraldry.

 

There was also the Dusk Raiders, at least in terms of one arm; although as applies the Crimson Sons, I wasn't quite sure whether those were one particular portion of the VIIIth or the VIIIth all up, in terms of their particular livery. 

 

One problem, however, and this relates directlly to the idea of the IVth not painting their armour ... is that if it's supposed to be unpainted ceramite, we have a number of different [i.e. conflicting] fluff-sources about what unpainted ceramite actually looks like. For instance, supposedly the white-ish armour of the Death Guard is *also* unpainted ceramite (which would, perhaps go with the idea of it being 'ceramic'] ... as is the greyish/gunmetal of the Knights Errant. And there may be other instances besides. 

 

It is therefore possible that there are different manufacturing processes or finishings of ceramite - so you shouldn't necessarily feel entirely tightly constricted to an 'iron' colour or whatever. 

 

A possibility I can't necessarily be bothered to put the work into but which would probably look interesting for a bit of a change of pace, is the 'blackened' grey of one of the black book colour plates of an XIXth Legion recon marine [although he's in Mk.IV so obviously post-Unification by quite a margin]. 

 

And as applies the IVth ... well, it'll depend rather heavily, perhaps, on what the intended combat role of whatever force of IVth is being considered/painted. 

 

I see no especial reason, for instance, for them not having the nous to apply appropriate camouflage to some units adapted for a forward observing [for their big-as siege guns etc.] or other infiltration; although given the nature of their operations and operating environment, this may perhaps entail really dark grey/black with flecks of burning amber ... "firestorm camouflage" you might say - of the sort that would look legit if one were attempting to blend into the smoke-plumes and wind-bourne embers of a burning oil-field coming outta Kuwait so to speak . Or ash-deserts, pumice-fields, salt-pans ... or even, for that matter, a seriously large amount of (thick) mud [weathering or actual camouflage]. 

 

[not that i'd do it ... but i did just start thinking about Marines in urban camouflage - perhaps even that rectangular Berlin Pattern you see sometimes when people're being 'fancy' :p ] 

 

Now obviously, that doesn't - indeed, even perhaps shouldn't - be the 'standard' for all Marines involved. 

 

But given the different operational constraints of the Legions before they'd left Terra - insofar as they very likely couldn't afford to be *anywhere near* as profligate with their expenditure of manpower as the IVth later, somwhat callouslly became ... due to the number of factors constraining the rate of new Astartes creation in comparison to subsequent developments in this area [including smaller overall pools of worthwhile/compatible human genestock to draw from for new recruits/aspirants; the still not entirely 'perfected' implantation/creation process; the lack of the Primarchs around to draw material from for the later subsequent 'accelerated' approach; etc. etc. etc. ] , i could certainly see an argument for such 'innovations' as may increase Marine survivability rather than just treating them all as expendable enough not to bother in the first instance. 

 

YMMV, of course. 

 

There is additionally the fact that we know that at least some of the interior specialist organizations likely existed at this stage - each of which might have had their own heraldry, panoply of war alterations in colour-scheme etc. and even [where appropriate] specialized equipment [the Stor-Bezashk, for instance, might have had servo-arms in a manner not entirely dissimilar to a modern techmarine; as well as carrying big ol' wrenches [there's one on the Goliath sprues that'd do iirc] , maybe having crude cognis-signum style devices and/or MIU-ish stuff [plus cabling, not-usb er .. data-spikes?] for greater 'direct' interfacing with their artillery-pieces and other war machines , possibly even some form of lower-grade cortex-controller for assisting with the wrangling of the servitors they almost certainly would have had around htem in the process. and maybe some identifying 'badge' or insignia either tying to their artillery role or their mechanic role or even hearkening back to the veterinary/animal/cavalry role of their namesake. 

 

dangit, you're now making me feel like i should i) start building one (or more!) for my Unification Wars forces; ii) start going through the other specialized formations etc. to see if there's anything *else* I should be exploring potential colourscheme/equipment mixes for ... 

 

oh, also, there's a non-zero chance that several of the Consul etc. roles we later come to see during the Heresy were *also* present at this point in Unification. For example, we *know* that the Heralds were around [i forget what those turn into .. the non XVIIth ones, I mean - like, obviously they're basically proto-chaplains [coz black armour, skull-helm, "eagle-winged mace"], but i forget whether those turn up in 30k outside specialized instances as consuls, even though again iirc their subsequent function of policing the Edict of Nikaea] - so if you like, you could do an IVth Legion one of those ; with a bit of a 'twist' that he's carrying on his person some form of ,, not a teleport-homer but both a secure longer-range comm, and some sort of ranging-beacon visible on the targeting screens of the IVth artillery parked just over yonder hill. Idea being that if the negotions don't go as well as might feasibly be expected, and he's suddenly finding himself being pulled down by anti-Unity humans or whatever - he can either a) call in artillery bombardment as necessary on targets within his line of sight or which have been pre-ranged in upon [i imagine that a certain level of pre-scoping of a settlement, fortification etc. would take place *before8 sending the Herald in - or, indeed, that could be one of the Herald's implicit roles as he's going .. pathfinding and recon, subtly relayed bac kfor the next wave of (Proto-)Astartes should one be neessary ..  , or b) potentially call down a bombardment *on himself* [which, since he's in reasonably powered armour, might dependent upon the nature of the munitions used, prove singificantly less dangers/fatal to him than to that which is threatening to drag him down through weight of numbers. *Maybe*] ; and/or c) if and when his twin hearts stop beating or some other condition is met showing that the Herald is basically lost, that basically sending a message to gunnery crews to start the retribution on hte last registered location of said beacon which'll be where he was taken out [which may also be a good idea to keep incerdibly valuable Unity gene-tech and hardware out of the hands of those who may otherwise learn its weaknesses ore ven reveerse-engineer it ..  to facilitate their own subsequen resistance  .. ] , and to everyone else to commence the more generalized advance and/or whatever other operational plans are in place. 

 

Gosh, there's probably a short story in there somewhere for yer campaign materials :P

 

Oh, and hte other Consul I had in mind as potenitally being around was the one cited in connectoin with the VIth Legion - the Consul Opsequiari ; with the military police insignia from the old Rogue Trader marines , and presumably something of a function to match [probably necssary considering i somehow doubt that Unification era Marines were particularly psychologically balanced in comparison to some later-day re-runs of the concept. 

 

I am still working on an appropraite translation of the Sanskrit - ish name given for what this insignia is supposedly from. A Sangha is a monastic order, though. 

 

Oh and-and ... perhaps some sort of forerunner-precursor sub-sect to the later Iron Havocs - I mean, it seems a fair assumption that being both a) really keen on and b) really good with .. large, Astartes-portable heavy-weapons which can do the whole bunker-busting and/or anti-armour role , would be something that the IVth would be genetically hard-wired about. [this is before we get into shrapnel/anti-personnel bits and pieces - which may yet be antoher story..]

 

[as it happens, which is probably why ti's turend up in my head, nwo that i think about it, I'm building an IVth-ish Proto-Astartes which may fit into the first part of the above, so keep an eye eon our Unification Wars thread perhaps] 

 

Anyway, I've gone off on a wild tangent from what i was initially intending to respond with, and dawn appears to have broken around me as I've been typing .. so I'll call a (temporary) halt there.

 

I'm aware that I sitll haven't actuallly gotten around to posting the PART THREE I said I'd do on some of the cool/interesting/useful details not covered in the proceeding two parts; but no doubt there'll be some potentially useful fluff-ideas contained in the above ramblings at any rate. 

[Honda]

I'm aware that I sitll haven't actuallly gotten around to posting the PART THREE I said I'd do on some of the cool/interesting/useful details not covered in the proceeding two parts; but no doubt there'll be some potentially useful fluff-ideas contained in the above ramblings at any rate.

 

 

You want my complete list or just  the top two or so :P

 

1. Consul, very cool idea and I will definitely be exploring that idea.

 

2. I also like the idea of a forward observer with advanced optics/comms. Oddly enough the crozius didn't seem to fit with my initial visualization, but who can really tell with these things.

 

3. Camo? Sign me up. It does strike me that the IVth would be very pragmatic about this, so much like hastily applied winter camo on the Eastern Front WW II, I don't get the impression that it  would be pristine, consistent, nor difficult to apply. The important thing would be to have some present, though the mud camo might be an interesting concept to explore.

 

dangit, you're now making me feel like i should i) start building one (or more!) for my Unification Wars forces; ii) start going through the other specialized formations etc. to see if there's anything *else* I should be exploring potential colourscheme/equipment mixes for ...

 

 

Yes, all of the above. :)

 

I was finally able to get my hands on some Cataphractii plastics that I will modify into a proto-Astartes Mk. III troopers. In essence, one of key characters of the campaign has a IVth bodyguard for reasons to be revealed soon (story point in progress).

 

As an aside, about what point in the UW/GC do you think Iron Circle Automata could reasonably become available to the IVth? This has more  to do with their presence in story terms, not whether or not I end up getting one. :)

 

It would also assist with tying into a specialist that operates them like modern day drones, hence is integrated to the degree that they are an extension of the specialist. Sort of like the Thousand Sons character in their book that psychically operated automata.

 

Cheers,

[bluntblade]

From memory, Perturabo's Iron Circle (the Domitar variants, right?) only became a thing after Fulgrim tried to burn his soul as fuel. However I guess that praevians would appear a few decades into the Crusade, once several Forge Worlds are churning out automata.

[Ryltar Thamior]

lol, all the questions, all the time - gives me something to do while things're drying and I can't muster the hand-eye co-ordination to properly do any converting or whathaveyou.

And I do agree about the crozius being rather .. odd for Unification. But, "eagle-winged mace" quoth the Black Book, so there it is. [seriously, i'm looking at the Herald I built, and the crozius on him, while definitely helping to convey who and what he is, just seems rather too '40k' for me; perhaps the one on the Word Bearers character from teh Calth box might look less out of place in that regard] 

Although I maintain that given the purpose-based and rather more 'utilitarian' approach the IVth might feasibly have ... something else a little more 'appropriate' could insteaad have taken their fancy. Both in terms of the "symbol of the Imperial Truth" element, and the "it's a mace" bit - given their siege-maker/breaker proclivities, perhaps a slightly more ornate maul or hammer could fit the gap - the latter in particular ot reflect the notoin of "building" a better destiny for mankind [via clubbing dissenters into submission, of course - but also masonry. Even if such masonry , as with the improvised 'roads' built through the swamps outside Basra for the Iraqi counter-attack following the Battle of the Marshes , is either metaphorically or literally, made out of the remains of the enemy] . I would perhaps have suggested one with an eagle's talon on it [i'm trying to remember where i've seen one of those - might be one of hte Alpha Legion characters]; although you could perhaps also go for a 'siege pick' made out of one of the rahter odd looking power-weapons from the Dark Angels ravenwing command box, however it might be a bit questionable as a crozius analogue. 

Anyway, it's a bit of a side issue which i've gotten myself caught up in. No reason why the IVth couldn't have a rather more 'straightforward' figure or set of figures broadly analogous to the Heralds , in terms of conveying the whole "surrender & Comply .. or die" message, but sans some of the trappings of the latter position. 

It's a good concept you've pointed out with the winter daubing of Eastern Front armour - something relatively quickly applied but also quick to wear away, communicating the simple and 'bare minimum' nature of combat expediency for forces rapidly shunted from warzone to warzone, perhaps, who'd therefore lack hte time to do much more oor more elaborate designs. 

ANother possibility would be looking at some of the German camouflage designs from after the material shortages *really* started to bite mid-way through the War. Not only does this a) give a few vibes about camouflage done despite significant suppply constraints; b) some interesting patterns which would likely be relatively appropriate for IVth engagement terrain [i can definitely see the pea soup , potentially in greys rather than ochre/khaki/olive-drab [ok, well dunkelgelb, rotbraun, olivgrun, etc. .. and let's not forget the panzergrau for some other areas], cropping up in the mud] ; c) the 'disruption' effect .. and also, now that i think abaout it, something potentially interesting to explore for larger miniatures in terms of 'ambush camouflage' [i.e. attempting to protect larger assets particularly from air-power by helping to blend in under trees ands uch whle they're waiting to spring a trap or in defensive positions .. not tha thtere may b all that many trees on Terra come to think of it, bu I digress]. 

However, the concept which *really* struck me just now is someting entirely dfiferent - namely, ways to represent an Astartes having applied thermal-baffling countermeasures to his armour. I mean, thinking about it, while obviously visual targeting will be what many if not most of his foes are basically running on , due to the rather larger number of relatively low-tech and/or conscript opposition that Unification windsup chewing through ... th sorts of tougher, harder nuts to crack - proto-dreadnoughts [i forget what hte Albian ones are called - Ironsides or something, isn't it?; and that's before  getting into those things in the TEmpest Galleries etc.] ,genetiacally engineered super-soldiers, elite formations of seasoned mortals, etc. - which one would be mroe likely to *need* to send Astartes against in the first place, are *much* more plausibly going to be equipped with a range of sensor/scanner equipment which might make trench-raiding/infiltration raather mroe difficult. Presumably by detecting the significant heat-signature which a Marine's powered armour is giving off especially when he's moving at speed. [which presents a bit of a problem for the Marine because heat-shielding extra plating is not likely to be a viable prospect due to the potential for overloading the rahter primitive power-sources .. to say nothing of the questionable extent to which hte legs are even powered to begin with!] 

anyway, what i'm getting at is, that it could be interesting to do a rahter 'plain' looking disruption / splinter / patchy camouflage job on some of the Marines who're designated forward operators slash 'storm troopers' / Arditi etc. - and apart from the obvious [or more subtle, depending on how you do it] potential for *visual* obscuration/disruption [again, whith different patterns being better for the Marine whose job it is to potentially remain still in one place for a long time ;versus the one who's going  to have to try and survive running very fast across an uncovered/minimally covered area - making it harder ot hit a target in motion with false edges and such , etc.] , the various coloured areas [well, differing shades of grey, most likely] would perhaps represent these infrared etc. confusing special substance applications. 

another possibility , would be some kind of zimmerit - like, on teh marines, I mean. Which, while it might sound a bit "uhh what" - consider the sheer clunkiness of early power armour. Particularly the first [later Mk.1] suits with enclosed/powered legs and such. I mean, the basic role of these things is to be able to trade blows with other similarly armed and armoured opponents, carry out breakthrough assaults in extreme conditions that would shred an ordinary Unification Army trooper - wadin through small-caliber firestorms and such. 

All of hwichc, now that i tihnk about it, is very much 'intrinsic' to the stereotypical IVth 'way of war' :D 

But anyway, it is considerably less likely that these suits would be constructe with nimbleness or even perhaps significant all-around optics/sensors [remember that helmets you could turn automatically were only around from, like .. i forget whether it's late Mk.II or early Mk.III onwards - some of hte older art for theese armour mks basically has helmest htat are integral to chest-pieces and can't be turend at all]] ... which, in a manner similar to Gaddafi's [relatively modern-ish] tank formations in the Libya-Chad war being surprisingly vulnerable to Chadian 'technicals' made out of Toyota flat-bed trucks with recoilless rifles due to slower turret traverses and suchlike which had difficulty keeping up with fast moving trucks ... [or, for that matter, any number of instances particularly in more close-confines combat environments such as urban warfare or the jungle, where tanks are at a distinct disadvantage due to hte potential of marauding infantry able to burst out from behind .. ] would straight-up open Marine 'heavy infantry' to being attacked and quite possibly seriously damaged via light infantry moving fast and/or sneaky, and basically hitting the Marines with anti-tank mines. I have no diea whether the armours of the time would be significantly magnetic enough for magnetic paste to be a viable way to attach such a mine .. but I'm sure that's a minor detail in the scheme of things.

Now, as applies modelling ... as i may have mentioned elsewhere, I have myself done Unification era Astartes in very early Mk.III utilizing the plastic cataphractii route. It's not a bad way to go - and given the heavy (yet still surprisingly mobile) nature of hte armour in comparison with some of the other stuff floating around ath te time, makes i) a lot of sense; ii) especialy *more* sense on IVth. The fact I put it on XIXth is entirely beside thee point :P 

However, what I would perhaps suggest , if you're feeling up for it , is the comparatively greater visual distinguishment and unquestionably more 'period-vibe' feel of several both GW and third party 'Chaos Warrior' type kits. Whatever the uh ... thing htat're chaos warriors now, i guess, for Khorne in Age of Sigmar, would be ideal - as this delivers thick, leather-ish boots, breaches, chain-mail under-armour for further force dissipation, and big-as rather brutal looking metal plates. And that's just hte legs. It'd look quite reasonable to represent the unpowered lower halves of Mk.1 armour's eralier iterations; and gets you a few more interesting poses to work with as well - helsp to draw a visual distinction between those 'stuck' with [or perhaps too proud/stubborn to eschew] the "older" pattens, versus this smaller grouping who've been blessed [slash sentenced to a potentially 'interesting' time as live-fire prototype-testers ..] with the much newer and supposedly superior gear. [alternatively, bodyguards , they might want to have the more 'reliable' equipment as compared to those aforementioend 'prototypes' or first-ffew production runs armours - less chance of something going wrong at a key critical juncture] [there is also the fact htat, particularly when one is wading through cloying mud, dust/sand etc. ... the rather greater number of moving parts involved in/required for locomotion in 'proper' powered armour - particularly the interlocking rings of Mk.II, now that i think about it - are at a *far* greater chance of having serious issues in these conditions than thick leather breache®s and boots] 

This is particularly the case with some of the older [relatively speaking] Khornate etc. chaos characters from Fantasy [AoS is a bit more .. complicated in this area for the characters beause most of them really have gone 'up to eleven' on vibes that require rahterm ore work to get to "Imperialish" Techno-Barbarian, imo] ... and, speaking of Khornate characters from Fantasy [sort-of :P - it's in the fluff :P ] , even miniatures like Krell are a good fit here [i've got a proto-Astartes VIIIth based on Krell, in no small part due to the winged skull device :P ] 

Another possibility would be using Grave Warden terminator legs, if you were going to splash out a bit - other htan the fact the torsos are surprisingly interesting for truescaling in "this doesn't look like 'modern' by 30k standards] kinda way, they have the same rear plates style design as basic cataphractii, but with a far more 'archaic' kinda feel due to the tabards with chain links running down them, and hte fact that their knees and such are with that lovely [brass-ish, in my head] trim. 

Now personally, i've generally tended to think of Proto-Astartes as quite likely being 'larger' than the actual-Astartes which followed them; but that obviously isn't always going to be the ase [depends what alterations were made to them, point number one, as well as their gene-seed , and how well it's taken etc. ] - which is another optential reason to take a look at some of the larger-ish AoS chaos infantry kits [the AoS starter blood-whatever they are are perhaps a sdhade smaller than my recent truescaling efforts [which are, themselves, arguably rather 'tall'], about hte same size as Primaris marines, and would therefore be an appropriate visual contrast to those aforementeiond Mk.III clad figures - on grounds that clearly the armour is oging to add more height than stomping around in a pair of old boots :P ]]

anyway, i've digressed again.

I'm not entirely sure about a 'hard' evidentiary basis to answer your question about the domitar ferrum's introduction with the IVth, however I would suggest that it is likely that their availability in numbers outside of Perturabo's personal guard would be something for the mid to late Heresy - I think from memory it may have been something he decided to get to serious work on following Phall. 

That said, there's easy precedence for combat automata with the IVth well before then, through the Crusade etc. - and it seems plausible to presume thta not entirely dissimilar robots would have been available to them from relatively early on in the Crusade; and the Conqueror class robot the Domitar's apparently based off was around arguably since teh Dark Age of Technology [at least, i haven't seen any early inception date for it, and it's listed as being an "ancient" design]. Although the Domitar itself is apparently one of the final combat robots to enter into production before the Heresy begins - so that would render it correspondingly unlikely at any point before that [certain IVth or even Perturabo tinkering around and producing designs which look very like the eventual Domitar, perhaps excepted .. maybe]. 

I'm not sure how viable robots are in Unity forces during much of Unification, although who knows what some of the Terrawatt style enclaves were getting up to. Once the concordat with Mars is reached (which appears to be prior to the end of Unification on Terra itself, but will have to double check htat], it becomes more plausible. 

Anyway, the issue with attempting to replicate the way the Thousand Sons ran with their automata is that these , the Achea pattern of Castellax iirc, were um ... "cheating rather wildly" so to speak - making up for the shortcomings of more 'conventional' methods of animating and guiding a combat robot with BLATANTLY HERETICAL WARP/CRYSTAL MAGIC. 

However, having said *that* ... apart from the idea I posited earlier about utilizing something like a cortex-controller with various grades of tech/combat servitors [perhaps in a mannner not entirely dissimilar to a necromancer and a shambling horder of not-really-undead] , there's also a handy fluff figure in the form of Narik Dreygur, whom i think is the 'named example' for a ... is it a Praevian? [i did actually parse what his name meant awhel back, but will have to consult my notes]. In any case, the direct integration of the cortex controller said Consul has into hsi nervous system would perhaps be not entirely dissimilar to what you're goin gfor there. Not likely to be *quite* as close or efficcacious as the THousand SOns' approach, but that is the limits of technology. 

[Harrowmaster]

From memory, Perturabo's Iron Circle (the Domitar variants, right?) only became a thing after Fulgrim tried to burn his soul as fuel. However I guess that praevians would appear a few decades into the Crusade, once several Forge Worlds are churning out automata.

Iirc the Iron Circle were comissioned after a unit of Fists made it to Perturabo's chambers during the battle of Phall

[bluntblade]

Ah

[Brother Pheidias]

 

From memory, Perturabo's Iron Circle (the Domitar variants, right?) only became a thing after Fulgrim tried to burn his soul as fuel. However I guess that praevians would appear a few decades into the Crusade, once several Forge Worlds are churning out automata.

Iirc the Iron Circle were comissioned after a unit of Fists made it to Perturabo's chambers during the battle of Phall

 

There were Iron Circle present during the events BB is alluding to.

[Harrowmaster]

Never said they weren't just that Phall spurred Perturabo to implement a bodyguard

[bluntblade]

Yep, I was wrong