Deep Strike/Reserves & Strike from the Shadows Clarification

[Syward]

I’ve got a 1500pt Vanguard Detachment army that has the following units:

TDA Captain

TDA Chaplain

 

Dreadnought

5 man Terminator Squad

5 Man Assault Terminator Squad

5 Man Sternguard Squad

 

Land Raider

Drop Pod

 

I understand that I need to deploy at least 50% of my units on the table while being allowed to keep the remaining units in reserve. What I’m not 100% is how my units are counted (Specifically the Drop Pod.)? i.e. How many units do I have for the purposes of Deep Striking? 7 or 8? I know (I think I know anyway LOL) that I put the Dreadnought & Land Raider down, that’s 2 units, and if I put the Captain & Chaplain down that’s 4, which is at 50%  if I count my Army as 8 units or 57% if it counts as 7 units, so either way I could keep the TDA squads & the SternGuard squad and their Drop Pod for Deep Strike (or more realistically keep 1 HQ, a TDA squad & the Sterngaurd+Drop Pod in reserve)

 

What’s I’m looking for is if I were decide to expand this list and have a 2^nd Sternguard + Drop Pod? Did my list go up to 10 units or is it 8? It could make a big difference in what I’m able to keep in reserve. If it counted as 8, I could keep both TDA squads & both Sternguard Squads + Drop Pods in reserve while deploying both HQ & the LR & Dread. But if it’s 10 units, I’d have to deploy one of the TDA squads to keep both by Sternguard + Drop Pods in reserve.

 

Also, the list is intended to be a Black Templars list, but just out of curiosity, what happens if I want to run them as Raven Guard and take the ‘Strike From the Shadows’ stratagem? Would I technically be able to Deep Strike everything including the LR & the Dread? Or am I completely misunderstanding what SftS does?

 

Thanks for the input/clarification.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Transports and any units transported in them count as separate deployments for calculating the 50% (see page 5 of the main 40K FAQ, found here: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf )

 

So, with your amy as is, added the sternguard with drop pod, that would violate the 50% (as it would be 4/10 units on the table).  You, could, however, put one of the squads you have in reserve onto the table or into the landraider, as that would give you exactly 50% units deployed.

 

As for strike from the shadows, I don't know what the wording for that is, and will leave it to someone else to respond. :)

[Syward]

Transports and any units transported in them count as separate deployments for calculating the 50% (see page 5 of the main 40K FAQ, found here: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf )

 

So, with your amy as is, added the sternguard with drop pod, that would violate the 50% (as it would be 4/10 units on the table).  You, could, however, put one of the squads you have in reserve onto the table or into the landraider, as that would give you exactly 50% units deployed.

 

As for strike from the shadows, I don't know what the wording for that is, and will leave it to someone else to respond.

 

Thanks for the answer and the resource. That's exactly what I was looking for regarding how my Drop Pods count.  

[TheWolfLord]

Strike from the Shadows still counts as being placed in reserve so you couldn’t place your entire army in a combination of SftS and Deep Strike.

 

The only allowance the beta Tactical Reserves rule gives to SftS is allow units using it to setup outside of your deployment zone.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

If has similar wording to the Forward Deployment stratagem in the Chaos Space Marine codex, I disagree with the WolfLord.

 

That stratagem reads "Use this stratagem when you can set up a friendly Alpha Legion Infantry unit during deployment.  You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield.  At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first player's turn begins... set it up anywhere on the battlefied that is more than...."

 

This is similar wording to that in the entries of chaos terminators " During deployment, you may set up this unit in a teleportarium chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield" or raptors "During deployment, you may set up this unit in low orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield"

 

The tactical reserves rule (page 215 of the rule book) reads "Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserves, etc. in order to arrive on the battlefield mid game as reinforcements."

 

 

Given the triggering wording "During deployment, you may set up this unit in [special place]", it would trigger the 50% rule.

 

There could be room for argument that the Forward Deployment rules doesn't set them up "mid game" as required by the Tactical Reserves rule. However, as they set up "at the beginning of the first battle round", it certainly doesn't occur before the game and would thus be as mid-game - at least as much as a first turn deepstrike.

[BluejayJunior]

A unit in a transport/drop pod counts as two units. 

So if a squad is in the land raider, that counts as two units on the board. If you put a squad in a drop pod, that counts as two units in reserve. You always count the number of units, not the number of drops.

Strike from the Shadows allows you to put a unit into reserve instead of deploying it on the table. So that would count towards the number of units in reserve and require it to be balanced by a unit on the board. But since that unit is then deployed from reserve before the first turn, it can be placed anywhere on the board (following the rules of the stratagem), instead of having to be placed in your deployment zone per the Beta Rule. 

[TheWolfLord]

If has similar wording to the Forward Deployment stratagem in the Chaos Space Marine codex, I disagree with the WolfLord.

 

That stratagem reads "Use this stratagem when you can set up a friendly Alpha Legion Infantry unit during deployment.  You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield.  At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first player's turn begins... set it up anywhere on the battlefied that is more than...."

 

This is similar wording to that in the entries of chaos terminators " During deployment, you may set up this unit in a teleportarium chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield" or raptors "During deployment, you may set up this unit in low orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield"

 

The tactical reserves rule (page 215 of the rule book) reads "Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserves, etc. in order to arrive on the battlefield mid game as reinforcements."

 

 

Given the triggering wording "During deployment, you may set up this unit in [special place]", it would trigger the 50% rule.

 

There could be room for argument that the Forward Deployment rules doesn't set them up "mid game" as required by the Tactical Reserves rule. However, as they set up "at the beginning of the first battle round", it certainly doesn't occur before the game and would thus be as mid-game - at least as much as a first turn deepstrike.

I’m not sure which part you disagreed with me over as I too said they would count towards the reserve limit.

 

They can be placed outside of the deployment zone because they are setup before the first turn begins and because the beta rule specifically states this stratagem is excluded from that rule.

[Syward]

Thanks for the replies and clarification everyone, I appreciate it.

 

So, the major benefit to SftS then is that I can “Deep Strike” a unit that wouldn’t normally be able to Deep Strike, such as Intercessors (or even a vehicle?), but because I still need to follow the 50% rule for reserves, it wouldn’t make sense to play the army list I put in my 1st post as Raven Guard since all of the units in that list can already Deep Strike right?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

 

I’m not sure which part you disagreed with me over as I too said they would count towards the reserve limit.

 

Sorry - I'm not sure how I misread your post.

 

And in regards to Syward's question, Strike from the Shadows does allow you to have the units start inside the opponent's deployment zone, something you can't do until turn 2 if you deepstrike.

 

Other than that, yeah, the list you gave above wouldn't make much use of Strike from the Shadows as it appears that everything you want to deploy out of reserves already does so.

 

That said, Raven Guard may have additional benefits that might be useful, so whether you use Strike from Shadows may not be determinative.

[TheWolfLord]

Thanks for the replies and clarification everyone, I appreciate it.

 

So, the major benefit to SftS then is that I can “Deep Strike” a unit that wouldn’t normally be able to Deep Strike, such as Intercessors (or even a vehicle?), but because I still need to follow the 50% rule for reserves, it wouldn’t make sense to play the army list I put in my 1st post as Raven Guard since all of the units in that list can already Deep Strike right?

The major benefit is that the setup of units using SftS is done before first turn so those units can move normally. If you get first turn you can move inside 9” to get improved changes and into flamer range with units like Aggressors.

[Syward]

 

Thanks for the replies and clarification everyone, I appreciate it.

 

So, the major benefit to SftS then is that I can “Deep Strike” a unit that wouldn’t normally be able to Deep Strike, such as Intercessors (or even a vehicle?), but because I still need to follow the 50% rule for reserves, it wouldn’t make sense to play the army list I put in my 1st post as Raven Guard since all of the units in that list can already Deep Strike right?

The major benefit is that the setup of units using SftS is done before first turn so those units can move normally. If you get first turn you can move inside 9” to get improved changes and into flamer range with units like Aggressors.

 

Ahh... I see. Thanks for the additional info. 

 

Just to clarify, because the wording of SftS says 'units' I could if desired, use it to position a vehicle such as a Dreadnought or Predator right?

[Mr. Shine]

Just to clarify, because the wording of SftS says 'units' I could if desired, use it to position a vehicle such as a Dreadnought or Predator right?

Check the first sentence of the stratagem. It applies only to RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY units.

[Syward]

 

Just to clarify, because the wording of SftS says 'units' I could if desired, use it to position a vehicle such as a Dreadnought or Predator right?

Check the first sentence of the stratagem. It applies only to RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY units.

 

Thanks! I missed that part.