Scouts

[Pvnisher]

So as an old school dark angel I’ve never ever used scouts. But I plan on building close to 3 squads worth. I plan on doing 2 x 5 with bolsters and maybe a heavy bolter. Maybe one squad with sniper rifles. I also plan on making them 10 man squads of each. What do you guys recommend? Or should I just go 3x5 bolters.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Depends what you want to use them for. I use mine for 2 purposes: (1) to fill out a battalion for CPs, and (2) infiltrate for deep-strike denial (arguably less important now with the beta deep strike rules). Therefore, I keep the squads small and cheap (3x5 bolters). In general, I think it's the best way to run scouts, but I'm sure others will have a different perspective.

 

I've not seen snipers do enough to really make them worthwhile, although throwing in a heavy bolter for the hellfire stratagem can be worth it. A 10 man squad will still die to anything that turns its attention their way, and their footprint for deep strike denial is less necessary if you are playing with the beta deep strike rules. So I think keeping them to 5 is a better option.

[Pvnisher]

I think I may try to use them as a cheap troop choice. However it’s nice to be able to throw down 3 squads of 20 conscripts. But they aren’t as good as they used to be. So maybe I’ll do 3x5 bolsters and fill the squad out to 10 a piece just to have them.

[sneakybamsen]

You will not be in need of bigger scout squads than 5 ever. There is no logical argument for taking bigger units, really. Only fluffyness of your lists.

 

With regards to loadout the Hellfire Shells stratagem made heavy bolters worthwhile. Before we got the codex a heavy bolter was more or less 10 wasted points. Yes, it's better on paper than a bolter, but the actual difference in regular shooting output is miniscule.

Snipers don't do a lot. IF you get 6's to wound, you replace that wounding hit with a mortal wound. That's not bad, but you get so few 6's with them. For it to work consensus seems to be a minimum of 10 snipers. Apart from being able to target characters, they most of the time do less damage than bolters because they are heavy(1). Been running 10 sniper scouts in 3 league games. They really struggled to kill just cultists.

Missile launchers are to me too expensive to be worth it. You pay the same as you do for a lascannon, and yes, you can shoot frag missiles, but let's be honest, noone does that. So in effect, you're -1S, -1AP but pay the same for the weapon. There's the flakk stratagem, which is decent against fliers, but then, you'd always want devastators to do that kind of work with signum and amorium cherub (if in need of two attempted d3 mortal wounds).

Shotguns and the pistols + blades are fun to put on the table, but they never get to have effect. Unless you can somehow get shotguns within 6" of your opponent (and then you're looking at T4+ for shotguns to be better than bolters, which you don't want scouts to be fighting), bolters are plain better.

 

But getting yourself 3 scout squads with bolters would be a great idea, imho.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Depends what you want to use them for. I use mine for 2 purposes: (1) to fill out a battalion for CPs, and (2) infiltrate for deep-strike denial (arguably less important now with the beta deep strike rules). Therefore, I keep the squads small and cheap (3x5 bolters). In general, I think it's the best way to run scouts, but I'm sure others will have a different perspective.

 

I've not seen snipers do enough to really make them worthwhile, although throwing in a heavy bolter for the hellfire stratagem can be worth it. A 10 man squad will still die to anything that turns its attention their way, and their footprint for deep strike denial is less necessary if you are playing with the beta deep strike rules. So I think keeping them to 5 is a better option.

 

regarding the less usefulness of deep strike denials thanks to beta rules, bear in mind that they can still serve as buffers for turn 2 deepstrike denial. With this in mind, a simple scout squad with camo cloaks and bolters will still serve WELL as deep strike denials and protect your army core from being ambushed from unexpected quarters in Turn 2.

 

For me, as a space wolf, what happens in turn 2 onwards is that my army moves forward, either as one or splitting where necessary. In this circumstances, the mid field is vulnerable to deep strikers coming turn 2. with your normal scouts infiltrating and hopefully the enemy ignoring them (which they will if you hide them), they will serve as unexpected stumbling blocks for the deepstrikers.

 

I say this, because i'm constantly whining that wolf scouts, which are NOT neophytes, can't do infiltrate like neophytes, disallowing me from using them as stumbling blocks.

 

One last comment: beware those with extra movement even after infiltrate stage: meaning Death company who with strategem can move after deployment, Raven Guard who can move after coming out from shadows again, and Tyranids Swarmlord and various shenanigans, which can bypass the 9" restriction.

[Hantheman]

 

Depends what you want to use them for. I use mine for 2 purposes: (1) to fill out a battalion for CPs, and (2) infiltrate for deep-strike denial (arguably less important now with the beta deep strike rules). Therefore, I keep the squads small and cheap (3x5 bolters). In general, I think it's the best way to run scouts, but I'm sure others will have a different perspective.

 

I've not seen snipers do enough to really make them worthwhile, although throwing in a heavy bolter for the hellfire stratagem can be worth it. A 10 man squad will still die to anything that turns its attention their way, and their footprint for deep strike denial is less necessary if you are playing with the beta deep strike rules. So I think keeping them to 5 is a better option.

 

regarding the less usefulness of deep strike denials thanks to beta rules, bear in mind that they can still serve as buffers for turn 2 deepstrike denial. With this in mind, a simple scout squad with camo cloaks and bolters will still serve WELL as deep strike denials and protect your army core from being ambushed from unexpected quarters in Turn 2.

 

For me, as a space wolf, what happens in turn 2 onwards is that my army moves forward, either as one or splitting where necessary. In this circumstances, the mid field is vulnerable to deep strikers coming turn 2. with your normal scouts infiltrating and hopefully the enemy ignoring them (which they will if you hide them), they will serve as unexpected stumbling blocks for the deepstrikers.

 

I say this, because i'm constantly whining that wolf scouts, which are NOT neophytes, can't do infiltrate like neophytes, disallowing me from using them as stumbling blocks.

 

One last comment: beware those with extra movement even after infiltrate stage: meaning Death company who with strategem can move after deployment, Raven Guard who can move after coming out from shadows again, and Tyranids Swarmlord and various shenanigans, which can bypass the 9" restriction.

 

 

Scouts are a must for me for all those reasons. Good wolf 

 

don' forget alpha legion shenanigans (Don't get me started on how unbalanced those armies are because of it)

Scouts are a must for me for all those reasons. Good wolf 

 

don' forget alpha legion shenanigans (Don't get me started on how unbalanced those armies are because of it)

[Pvnisher]

Thanks guys. I guess I’ll start with 3 x 5 and make an extra heavy bolter guy for each in case I wanna use them. And then I can make more.

[G8Keeper]

Just as an aside, I have begun to take my third scout squad with bp & ccw and get them threatening the enemy early on. Near an objective etc.  The loadout gives me the ability to be aggressive and charge in with them when needed.

[sneakybamsen]

Just as an aside, I have begun to take my third scout squad with bp & ccw and get them threatening the enemy early on. Near an objective etc.  The loadout gives me the ability to be aggressive and charge in with them when needed.

 

They actually get to survive for a turn when being up front?

[G8Keeper]

 

Just as an aside, I have begun to take my third scout squad with bp & ccw and get them threatening the enemy early on. Near an objective etc.  The loadout gives me the ability to be aggressive and charge in with them when needed.

 

They actually get to survive for a turn when being up front?

 

 

You'd be suprised.  I try and shove them out of line of sight of stuff to help so I'm not just giving first blood away.  If I get first turn I can usually at least distract something killy over to them and reduce the fire coming in to my plasma devs.

[Indefragable]

I think there’s a case to be made for Snipers in a DA army. With Grim Resolve, they are offensively better than any other subfaction except Salamanders. But...as others have said...that doesn’t make them THAT good. But you need to have 10+, arguably 15+, to have any hope of success. Likewise, you want snipers to either focus on a single enemy character and not stop every turn until he’s dead, or go after secondary characters you’re more likely to kill (Commissars, Psykers, etc...)

 

So you really need to invest in Sniper score to make them worth their while...which is pretty much the issue: investment. With Beta rules, chances are you are bringing Scouts to save points...so why are you spending so many on those Scouts?

 

I think for DA you want 4x Bolters + Heavy bolter (at least 1 Squad, more of points allow). Grim Resolve will help you get that much more mileage out of them, especially the Hellfire Shells. Also, always take a Chainsword on your Sgt. It costs you nothing and can be taken in addition to the bolter.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I think there’s a case to be made for Snipers in a DA army. With Grim Resolve, they are offensively better than any other subfaction except Salamanders. But...as others have said...that doesn’t make them THAT good. But you need to have 10+, arguably 15+, to have any hope of success. Likewise, you want snipers to either focus on a single enemy character and not stop every turn until he’s dead, or go after secondary characters you’re more likely to kill (Commissars, Psykers, etc...)

 

So you really need to invest in Sniper score to make them worth their while...which is pretty much the issue: investment. With Beta rules, chances are you are bringing Scouts to save points...so why are you spending so many on those Scouts?

 

I think for DA you want 4x Bolters + Heavy bolter (at least 1 Squad, more of points allow). Grim Resolve will help you get that much more mileage out of them, especially the Hellfire Shells. Also, always take a Chainsword on your Sgt. It costs you nothing and can be taken in addition to the bolter.

 

I completely forgot about Grim Resolve, which actually makes sniper scouts SLIGHTLY more attractive, and increases the actual wounds inflicted quite a bit I think.  Don't know the cost of smiper scouts with cloaks, but it can't be more expensive than a tac squad with plasma gun.

 

Otherwise, bolter and heavy bolter seems to be cheapest and possibly most useful combination, with ability to threaten with hellfire rounds. Just keep them out of sight or provide big distractions so that the scouts don't get shot off the board.

 

For CC scouts, so far only worked for me during Shadow War armageddon. Funny thing about wolf scouts, they can add a full power armoured veteran sergeant in it with all the usual options (combi and power weapons), and the scout leader can have a power weapon too. Fluffy, but not exactly crunchy.

[sneakybamsen]

 

I think there’s a case to be made for Snipers in a DA army. With Grim Resolve, they are offensively better than any other subfaction except Salamanders. But...as others have said...that doesn’t make them THAT good. But you need to have 10+, arguably 15+, to have any hope of success. Likewise, you want snipers to either focus on a single enemy character and not stop every turn until he’s dead, or go after secondary characters you’re more likely to kill (Commissars, Psykers, etc...)

 

So you really need to invest in Sniper score to make them worth their while...which is pretty much the issue: investment. With Beta rules, chances are you are bringing Scouts to save points...so why are you spending so many on those Scouts?

 

I think for DA you want 4x Bolters + Heavy bolter (at least 1 Squad, more of points allow). Grim Resolve will help you get that much more mileage out of them, especially the Hellfire Shells. Also, always take a Chainsword on your Sgt. It costs you nothing and can be taken in addition to the bolter.

 

I completely forgot about Grim Resolve, which actually makes sniper scouts SLIGHTLY more attractive, and increases the actual wounds inflicted quite a bit I think.  Don't know the cost of smiper scouts with cloaks, but it can't be more expensive than a tac squad with plasma gun.

 

Otherwise, bolter and heavy bolter seems to be cheapest and possibly most useful combination, with ability to threaten with hellfire rounds. Just keep them out of sight or provide big distractions so that the scouts don't get shot off the board.

 

For CC scouts, so far only worked for me during Shadow War armageddon. Funny thing about wolf scouts, they can add a full power armoured veteran sergeant in it with all the usual options (combi and power weapons), and the scout leader can have a power weapon too. Fluffy, but not exactly crunchy.

 

 

Snipers with cloaks are 18 ppm, so 90 for 5. Ludicris pricing to be very frank. At that point I'd much rather have a tac squad with plasma and combi. Costs only a few points more. Yes, cloaks makes them as durable in cover, but 18 points for scouts that are to sit still and shoot what is widely less good than a bolter for an entire game? In 7th, when cloaks were 2 ppm, they weren't really used overly much. Now, they cost 50% more, so they hardly see tabletime at all.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Sneaky - you are probably right, sadly I never used snipers due to Space Wolves version being overcosted yet doing less than regular scouts (there was a time when they were WS4, BS4 back when scouts were WS3 BS3.

 

Still good and cheap for being a speed bump though. Not to mention if you want to farm CPs via brigade detachment.

[Hantheman]

 

 

I think there’s a case to be made for Snipers in a DA army. With Grim Resolve, they are offensively better than any other subfaction except Salamanders. But...as others have said...that doesn’t make them THAT good. But you need to have 10+, arguably 15+, to have any hope of success. Likewise, you want snipers to either focus on a single enemy character and not stop every turn until he’s dead, or go after secondary characters you’re more likely to kill (Commissars, Psykers, etc...)

 

So you really need to invest in Sniper score to make them worth their while...which is pretty much the issue: investment. With Beta rules, chances are you are bringing Scouts to save points...so why are you spending so many on those Scouts?

 

I think for DA you want 4x Bolters + Heavy bolter (at least 1 Squad, more of points allow). Grim Resolve will help you get that much more mileage out of them, especially the Hellfire Shells. Also, always take a Chainsword on your Sgt. It costs you nothing and can be taken in addition to the bolter.

 

I completely forgot about Grim Resolve, which actually makes sniper scouts SLIGHTLY more attractive, and increases the actual wounds inflicted quite a bit I think.  Don't know the cost of smiper scouts with cloaks, but it can't be more expensive than a tac squad with plasma gun.

 

Otherwise, bolter and heavy bolter seems to be cheapest and possibly most useful combination, with ability to threaten with hellfire rounds. Just keep them out of sight or provide big distractions so that the scouts don't get shot off the board.

 

For CC scouts, so far only worked for me during Shadow War armageddon. Funny thing about wolf scouts, they can add a full power armoured veteran sergeant in it with all the usual options (combi and power weapons), and the scout leader can have a power weapon too. Fluffy, but not exactly crunchy.

 

 

Snipers with cloaks are 18 ppm, so 90 for 5. Ludicris pricing to be very frank. At that point I'd much rather have a tac squad with plasma and combi. Costs only a few points more. Yes, cloaks makes them as durable in cover, but 18 points for scouts that are to sit still and shoot what is widely less good than a bolter for an entire game? In 7th, when cloaks were 2 ppm, they weren't really used overly much. Now, they cost 50% more, so they hardly see tabletime at all.

 

 

To be honest half of the cost of Space Marine armies makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

[FlamingDeth]

Since it sounds like most people consider small sniper squads ignorable, has anyone tried saving points and running them without cloaks?

[sneakybamsen]

In the league I've been participating in, I ran 2 5-man sniper squads without cloaks over the course of 3 games. We had to have a min of 250 points worth of troops for every battalion/brigade, so I ended up with 4 scout squads, 2 with bolters and 2 with snipers. Over 3 games I think I managed 4 or 5 MW's. Often the snipers just whiffed completely or one of the squads got murdered by some enemy in CC early on. To me, the only positive they brought were the deployment rules. They kill chaff worse than bolters, as I pointed out above, and hold objectives/provide screen just the same as bolter scouts.

 

The snipers had no intimidating effect on my opponents, they didn't hide characters from the scouts. They either gotta limit your opponent greatly, do damage or be so dangerous they become a priority to kill. They managed nothing of those three over 3 games. I'm not impressed. Would be even less with them wearing cloaks. Even my terminators (642 pts including Belial) did a lot better, when looking at points invested vs effects on the games.

 

The weapon itself is the issue. You replace, what is for a free weapon really solid, with something that costs more, has rules to sometimes (rarely) be fun and funky, but for the price should have a better statline. The MW on 6's to wound is fair enough, and being able to target characters makes sense. But being heavy(1) with the same S and AP as a bolter, albeit 12" longer range, just means they don't do enough. I personally think snipers should have AP -1, but otherwise be unchanged both in terms of rules and profile but also points. After all sniper rifles shoot fairly high caliber bullets, that should be reflected in the profile.

 

Regards

[Pvnisher]

Sneaky how many heavy bolters do you run. One in each squad or just one period. Like I said before I’m going to paint up 3 x 5 and an extra heavy bolter for each.

[Solrac]

Nowadays I only run 3x5 bolter scouts.

 

I have experimented with almost everything with Scouts in my tournament games. Large squads, small squads, Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher and Snipers (both large and small squads).

 

Please keep in mind this is a tournament/competitive focus based on my experiences and meta in the tourneys I go to. If you are playing a casual or narrative game take whatever you like

 

Scouts in general do get ignored most of the time however in ICT tournament missions (and some other missions) they can be some easy kill points for scoring which means you have to be clever with their deployment if you are going close to the enemy lines. This is also why keeping them cheap is best. Camo Cloaks are never worth the cost. If you have 3 squads of cloaks all those cloak points almost buys you another whole squad of scouts.

 

Sniper Scouts are not really worth it because you need 10 to 15 to hunt squishy characters and even then they can't be relied on to kill the character in 1 turn of shooting. Their Mortal Wound output does not justify their cost and to increase their Mortal Wound output means you need to park a Lieutenant nearby meaning you are spending more points on them. They are too expensive and inefficient to use as bubble wrap because you won't want to move them from their denial position and a lot of the times they won't be able to see what they need to shoot at. Whilst their Scout deployment is good it's still not the best as unlike Eldar Pathfinders they can easily be countered. 

 

I find Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers not really worth it in Scout squads. Yes I know Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shot are good stratagems however having those weapons in the squad made me play scouts differently and more static. My scouts like to hide out of LOS near objectives or to deny deep strike. That chance you can do some mortal wounds to something forcing you to stay still can be good in a pinch but in the long run not really worth it as Scouts need to be mobile.

 

If you want to use of Flakk and Hellfire take your Heavy Bolter and Missile Launchers in devastator squads. This is the only unit that you should take to use these strategems as combining the signum and the cherub with your stratagem is your best use of those command points by far.

 

Scouts are not about damage output. They are about running from cover to cover to grab objectives, area denial and home objective camping. They want to be behind LOS as much as possible to deny your opponent kill points and objectives.

[sneakybamsen]

Solrac has the thick of it, Pvnisher, he definitely knows what he's doing, and he plays far more competitively than I do.

 

But to answer your question, I have 2 scouts with a heavy bolter, 12 with bolters and 1 with BP+CCW (sergeant in the the squad without heavy bolter) plus shotgun, older BP+CCW and sniper scouts. I do sometimes, when trying to tune lists, bring older models so that I don't have to take the heavy bolters, but I feel the heavy bolters are sensible for casual play. People tend to forget about the Hellfire shells for a turn or two. But it does mean more defensive play with the scouts, unless you just want to sell that scout squad turn 1. I have recently run both pure bolter squads and the ones with heavy bolters in them, only substituting 1 model in either squad.

 

Regards

[Pvnisher]

Thank you guys. I’m Def going to do 3x5 bolter scouts. Should I bother with the bp and ccw? I might worry about heavy bolter later. Sorry for the million questions I just like to know before I start building.

[STTAB]

Storm bolters if you have the points leftover. 2 points to double the ROF of the Sergeant.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Thank you guys. I’m Def going to do 3x5 bolter scouts. Should I bother with the bp and ccw? I might worry about heavy bolter later. Sorry for the million questions I just like to know before I start building.

 

Probably shouldn't bother with BP and CCW, although admittedly it looks much more cooler than a bolter armed scout. Depends on how strong WSYWIG conditions are in your meta I guess. If your meta is not too particular, just use BP and CCW as Bolter armed scouts. Sprinkle with a few heavy bolter armed scouts in case you need to camp at objective and throw out occasional mortal wounds.

 

Again remember you are a cross dressing Dark Angel. You shoot better when you are standing still with your dresses flowing in the wind. :P Sorry, couldn't resist. So static camping heavy bolter armed scouts are still decent I believe.