Competitive List building - Knight Soup

[hermanista]

So as mentioned multiple times, to get the most from our knight lists you need some kind of CP farm.

 

Also I've mentioned going to the 40k GT as well, with its new restriction of 1750 points. Hard work to make a pure list fit, and with the earlier point soup is inevitable.

 

So whilst we have other threads discussing competative elements, I thought about making something purely based upon being competative and a place to share ideas.

 

This is my current thinking on the list planning from.

 

12 CP to start, 6 Spent.

 

Two 5+ attempts to gain a CP from my attempts

One 5+ attempt to gain a CP from opponents attempt.

 

 

 

Super Heavy Lance

House Raven

 

Knight Valiant, Exalted Court, Ion Bulwalk

Knight Gallant Exalted Court, Landstrider, Paragon Guantlet

Knight Gallant

 

Imperial Guard Battery

Commander Warlord, Brilliant Strategist

Commander, Kurovs Aquila

3x10 Infantry Squads

 

Blood Angel Supreme Command

Captain, Jump Pack, Power Sword, MC Bolter

Captain, Jump Pack, Power Sword, MC Bolter

Captain, Hand Flamer, Power Sword, The Veritas Vitae

 

If I pop in a second blood angel relic for another 2 cp, I can give one of the captains the angels wing jump pack, meaning reroll charge distance and the model can't be targeted by overwatch.

 

Throw him in first and then follow with a knight. That is a lot of CP spent before the game however.

 

 

I realise I'm not earning any favourite games from this list, lol.

[Clingy]

And hence forth this shall be known as Hermanistas Up in your Grill Build

[Heliomanes]

Not sure if the Valiant is as cut throat as the rest of your list. By all means, you do you, but if the purpose of the thread is to discuss competitiveness then that would be the first discussion point.

[hermanista]

Not sure if the Valiant is as cut throat as the rest of your list. By all means, you do you, but if the purpose of the thread is to discuss competitiveness then that would be the first discussion point.

No no, discuss away.

 

It was an either or choice between the 4++ and Traitors Bane.

 

With the amount of CP farming the list can do spending 3cp on rotate shields I thought was more useful.

 

But rerolls all wounds with the Flamer combined with the raven strat of rerolls all ones for the shooting phase meaning you can potentially up the amount of shots fired is Hellas scary too.

 

Thought choice between the two

[Heliomanes]

Honestly I don't think the chassis itself is a competitive choice. It's a cool choice, but not a cost effective one. If you want to make your list a bit closer to a tournament winner I think we'll do better by replacing it with a third Gallant and running them as Krast or Terryn, and spending the excess points on something else. Like mortars for your guard detachment, to kill off enemy objective grabbers?

[Charlo]

The Valiant is basically a shooty Gallant. Run it forward getting the Conflag Cannon into range, not caring about damage you take as that thing is running at optimum efficiency the whole time, right down to 1 wound.

[Heliomanes]

The Acheron can do the same thing cheaper, and is commonly considered a noncompetitive choice.

Still, the Valiant is really cool, so we could switch it up and start talking about how to optimize him rather than what's strictly competitive or not.

[hermanista]

The Acheron can do the same thing cheaper, and is commonly considered a noncompetitive choice.

 

Still, the Valiant is really cool, so we could switch it up and start talking about how to optimize him rather than what's strictly competitive or not.

 

It is, I don't have one of them though.

 

I do have a Valiant though, lol

[Aegir_Einarsson]

On thing worth concidering is hwakshroid valiant. With This 2CP stratagem to overwatch allied units And countercharge is huge IMO. Creating Nice anti-charge bubble. I’ll go Probably 2+ And traktors bane. Everything exept melta gives you 5+ at worst And chance to wound with small arm fire is even smaller. In edition that everything can wound anything is important. Don’t forget about that Nice rockets that can snipe characters.

[sneakybamsen]

You wrote 6Cp spent, but I don't get that to fit the bill. As far as I can see, you have 2 knights who you make characters, Valiant gets a trait, one gallant gets both relic and trait. That should be 4 CP. Then you have your warlord giving 1 character in the same detachment a free relic, the one your other commander carries, and finally you have the blood angels relic which you pay 1 CP for. That's 5 total to me. You have good chances at getting CP from stratagems both sides of the table, so hopefully you should have CP to spend later on.

[hermanista]

You wrote 6Cp spent, but I don't get that to fit the bill. As far as I can see, you have 2 knights who you make characters, Valiant gets a trait, one gallant gets both relic and trait. That should be 4 CP. Then you have your warlord giving 1 character in the same detachment a free relic, the one your other commander carries, and finally you have the blood angels relic which you pay 1 CP for. That's 5 total to me. You have good chances at getting CP from stratagems both sides of the table, so hopefully you should have CP to spend later on.

Exalted Court x2 =3

Heirlooms x2 =3

Blood Angel relic for 1

 

So it should actually be 7?

[Karhedron]

Blood Angel Supreme Command

Captain, Jump Pack, Power Sword, MC Bolter

Captain, Jump Pack, Power Sword, MC Bolter

Captain, Hand Flamer, Power Sword, The Veritas Vitae

If you are running a BA SCD, you really want to make one of those Captains into Captain Smash (Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Angel's Wing relic JP, Death Visions of Sangiunius (1CP) and Artisan of War trait). This guys hits almost as hard as a Galant for 129 points and can charge out of Reserves or use the "Upon Wings of Fire" stratagem to redeploy and then charge. I understand taking the SCD for the Veritas Vitae but I would advise taking better characters than just some Captains with power swords.

 

If you take Heliomanes' advice and switch out the Valiant for another Questoris, the points saved should allow you to boost this detachment properly. Also the Veritas Vitae only rolls one dice for each Stratagem used, not each CP spent. Even if you use a 3CP stratagem, you still only get 1 CP back on a single 5+ roll. The Veritas Vitae is inferior to the Grand Strategist in this regard.

[Frostbit3]

Going to derail you with a rules question because I’ve seen people commonly doing what you have done here and I would like to understand how it works.

 

Relics...

 

Every book I’ve looked at says something to the effect of “if your army is lead by a <specific army> warlord then before the battle you may give one of the following items to a <specific army> character...”

 

The BA relic strategem says your army can have “one extra relic.” Can you really have an extra if you aren’t eligible to have the first? Guard codex also uses the word “extra.” The knights book is worded differently and seems to bypass that restriction how I am reading it.

 

I seem to be reading it differently than the majority so please persuade me, I want it to be your way.

[Charlo]

Going to derail you with a rules question because I’ve seen people commonly doing what you have done here and I would like to understand how it works.

 

Relics...

 

Every book I’ve looked at says something to the effect of “if your army is lead by a <specific army> warlord then before the battle you may give one of the following items to a <specific army> character...”

 

The BA relic strategem says your army can have “one extra relic.” Can you really have an extra if you aren’t eligible to have the first? Guard codex also uses the word “extra.” The knights book is worded differently and seems to bypass that restriction how I am reading it.

 

I seem to be reading it differently than the majority so please persuade me, I want it to be your way.

 

This was answered in an FAQ.

 

Basically the fact you have a different warlord doesn't mean squat to using a stratagem to unlock more relics.

[Frostbit3]

Then Feedback about the actual list, and I’m off to find an FAQ. It’s similar to what I had come up with. When considering BA for that relic the math didn’t make sense to me unless you love the captains. You would have 12 cp spending 7 by your count (possibly more for the jump pack) leaving 5 (or 3) With the BA one only firing when you use a strategem you are probably only “guaranteed” 3 chances to use it. If you were going to play the blood angels anyway it should pay for itself, and you are golden. If you were taking them just to get the relic then the points may be better spent elsewhere.

I ended up nixing the BA and valiantfor an Acheron and a crusader

[hermanista]

Reason captain smash isn't there is the 1750 points limit. There just isn't the points to trim with the new GT points unfortunately.

 

I may well flip the Valiant out after a few attempts with the list, but I just wanna roast some things with the super-flamer, lol.

 

I do see the point about the Blood Angels detachment though.

 

Some pause for thought as it is essentially a tax for multiple 5+ rolls.

 

Maybe retaining the second guard battalion is the better choice for the easy +5 CP and further board control.

[Karhedron]

For the cost of the BA SCD, you are not far off the cost of Bobby G who brings a bunch of CPs and a juicy reroll bubble for all Imperial units.

 

If you are going for really dirty soup, how about trimming some points off an running a Custodes SCD consisting of 3 Jetbike Captains? That is 480 points, add 180 points for your Guard battery and that still leaves you 1090 points for your Lance, just enough for 3 questoris Knights (provided a couple of them are Gallants).

[sneakybamsen]

 

You wrote 6Cp spent, but I don't get that to fit the bill. As far as I can see, you have 2 knights who you make characters, Valiant gets a trait, one gallant gets both relic and trait. That should be 4 CP. Then you have your warlord giving 1 character in the same detachment a free relic, the one your other commander carries, and finally you have the blood angels relic which you pay 1 CP for. That's 5 total to me. You have good chances at getting CP from stratagems both sides of the table, so hopefully you should have CP to spend later on.

Exalted Court x2 =3

Heirlooms x2 =3

Blood Angel relic for 1

 

So it should actually be 7?

 

 

Yeah, except I don't see two heirlooms on your knights, but as I said, I don't have the codex yet, so bare with me. If you have the two relics (I can't remember most traits and relics by names yet) on your knights, are you not missing a trait if you pay for for two of either? Or is the one trait to have the free reroll once per game and +1CP, but perhaps not written in your list?

 

It's not to find flaws, it's just, if you have one more command point to start with, it's rather nice to be aware of :)

[Heliomanes]

He uses his free Warlord and Relic in the Imperial Guard detachment. Then he bought a warlord trait for two knights (costs 1 cp for 1, or 3 cp for 2), and a relic for one (costs 1).

[sneakybamsen]

He uses his free Warlord and Relic in the Imperial Guard detachment. Then he bought a warlord trait for two knights (costs 1 cp for 1, or 3 cp for 2), and a relic for one (costs 1).

 

Exactly my point. 3+1 for the knights + 1 for the BA relic is 5, not 6.