Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Captain Idaho]

I really like the changes and would be happy to play any of them.

The only one I think needs a bit more work is the meteoric descent stratagem. I know it only costs 1 cp but it still doesn’t seem worth it. I don’t think, realistically, it will inflict many wounds on a unit. Maybe 1 or 2 each time which, personally, I don’t think compares to say 1cp to reroll the shot numbers on a D6 weapon or the damage on a D6 weapon.

Personally I would change it to one of these:

1) inflict a mortal wound on a 5+ (or even 4+)

2) change it to roll a D6 for every model in the unit being charged

3) each individual jump pack marine (rather than the unit) rolls a D6 for every model within 1 inch of it.

You may need to adjust the cp cost for one or more of those but I think the higher chances of inflicting wounds is worth it.

Just my opinion though, like said, really like the other ideas, particularly removing the need for three vehicles for the killshot or linebreaker strat.

Game balance is important here. Something simpler perhaps?

 

4+ causes D3 mortal wounds. If the squad numbers 10 models it causes 3 mortal wounds.

 

That is very powerful and probably needs to be 2 CPs though.

[Ishagu]

 

All the stratagems are garbage, imo. Even our best ones are medicore, with the exception of the RG infiltration.

They need a full re-write, top to bottom. Look at what the Eldar factions, Custodes or Knights have as an example of how influential stratagems can and should be.

Marines have the weakest codex right now, we're only marginally better than Index armies in all truth. Every single unit, including Guilliman, is over-costed.

Did you even bother to read the first post?

I did, and I don't think it goes far enough. We need new stratagems completely, not up-gunned versions of the existing ones which are frankly boring when compared to the new and more exciting options that have come out since for other factions.

[Captain Idaho]

A note on points costs - yes there are changes but I've refrained from changing too much. If I want GW to take this feedback seriously it can't be just massive buffs and massive points drops.

[Captain Idaho]

 

 

All the stratagems are garbage, imo. Even our best ones are medicore, with the exception of the RG infiltration.

They need a full re-write, top to bottom. Look at what the Eldar factions, Custodes or Knights have as an example of how influential stratagems can and should be.

Marines have the weakest codex right now, we're only marginally better than Index armies in all truth. Every single unit, including Guilliman, is over-costed.

Did you even bother to read the first post?

I did, and I don't think it goes far enough. We need new stratagems completely, not up-gunned versions of the existing ones which are frankly boring when compared to the new and more exciting options that have come out since for other factions.

Well I don't think the changes and new Stratagems I suggested are garbage at all. I feel like they're measured and maybe not perfect but a balanced approach. I also feel like the new ones suggested are quite character.

[Ishagu]

Ask GW to point out the big tournament events in which Marines have placed high in the last 3 months.

I think the data exists for them to look at. The codex is the worst, not really disputable.

 

If all you know well are Marines you might not have the full picture. I own multiple books, have a varied local meta and play competitively. If you played with (not against) Eldar or Nids for a few games it would open your eyes.

[Closet Skeleton]

Stupid wishlist

 

Terminator armour - replace the invulnerable save with -1 to enemy wound rolls, Cataphracti also lose their invulnerable save but get 1+ armour

Tactical marines down to 11 points, scouts stay at 11 points because infiltrate is as good as +1 save or drop to 8 points and drop weapon/ballistic skill to 4+, neophytes drop to 8 points. Assault marines 10 points, 12 with jump pack.

 

Land raiders fall back and shoot, drop 30 points

 

Attack bikes -5 points, heavy weapons become assault, movement 12

Landspeeders drop to 40 points, get chapter tactics, ignore hit penalties for moving as long as unit doesn't split fire

 

Predators 80 points, thirteen wounds, light tank special rule that makes turret weapon assault.

 

Missile launchers 20 points, cyclone 35 points

Meltagun 12 points

Multi-melta 20 points

[Tokugawa]

If GW buff a marine unit, their Chaos equivalent would receive the same buff. And the Nurgle ones receive the same buff, along with higher toughness and FNP. And the Slaanesh ones receive the same buff, along with double fire...

 

 

The result: one day your wishes really come true,then they are pushed to Tier1, you are in Tier2.

 

 

Unless GW focus the rule enhancement on the parts which have no chaos equivalent(e.g. primaris). I don't think veteran marine players would welcome that...

[autek mor]

Lol I am a battle hardened Marine tournament player, I'e been to two in the last month.

 

No one insists the Marine codex is solid. It's not as terrible as the weakest books in 7th were when compared to the best, but it's most certainly the weakest of all the current books.

The tournament results are the evidence you should look at, not what people say. Marines are not placing high, not winning, not dictating the meta, etc, etc

 

Who are the hardcore players insisting on the strength of the book? Reece at FLG? lol

 

lol reece was flying the flag for marines for a while, recent example of "marines are still strong" is in the comment section of almost pro gamings video where he interviews 1st and 3rd from a recent tournament. both the winner and runner up still had kind words for the marine dex despite both using dark eldar. not one loyalist chapter made the top five of that particular event.

 

apologies for briefly derailing the thread. the fast attack section definitely needs some serious love. players have no incentive of choosing anything other than inceptors at the moment.

[Charlo]

Great start Idaho, some really good ideas here.

 

Marines have been failed in their portrayal of flavour through stratagems (unlike every other codex after it, especially the later ones) and the arms race is certainly real.

 

The Astartes should be the premier mid-range shooting force, with above average durability and the option for close combat when necessary. They use extreme discipline and tactics to get the job done with a surgical strike. Stratagems should be what reflect this.

 

Instead though, our stratagems cover a lot of old wargear/ upgrade options/ detachment bonuses and are for the most part useless or too niche to be of any worth.

 

To push this feeling, I'm a huge fan of these:

 

 

 

NEW! Decapitating Strike – “2 Command Points: Use before a Tactical or Intercessor squad fires in the Shooting Phase. The unit's shooting attacks, except those with the Heavy type, can target Characters for this phase even if they are not the closest models.

NEW! Fury of the Chapter – “1 Command Point: Use before a Crusader, Tactical or Intercessor squad fires in the Shooting Phase. That unit can fire twice this phase.”

NEW! No Pity, No Remorse – “1 Command Point: Use before a Crusader, Tactical or Intercessor squad attacks in the Fight Phase. Any model can opt to fire it's Bolt weapons into combat as if it was the Shooting Phase, even if it is the opponent's turn. However, models that do so cannot make their normal attacks that Fight Phase.”

 

THIS is how marines should be, the main units in the company (Tacticals & Intercessors) forming a Vanguard that are adaptable for a few CP.

 

To further this, I think as well as these stratagems, Marines need additional Bonus CP to represent the time-honoured tradition of the Codex - The Battle Company.

 

Battle Company - Any <ADEPTUS ASTARTES> Battalion Detachment adds the following text to it's command benefits if it's compulsory troops choices are filled using Tactical Squads with 10 members: +3CP. In addition, Any <ADEPTUS ASTARTES> Brigade Detachment adds the following text to it's command benefits if it's compulsory troops choices are filled using Tactical Squads, compulsory Fast Attack choices are filled with Assault Squads and Compulsory Heavy Support Choices are filled with Devastator squads, with 10 members: +12CP.

 

For a Battalion, this effectively adds an additional CP for every Tactical Squad you bring at full strength, making them a much more inviting prospect and more than just a CP tax. For the Brigade, this means you get double the normal CP for bringing a fluff-tastic force that, while expensive, when combined with new stratagems should be able to work properly.

 

Finally, this brings me to Drop Pods. These are another totally iconic unit of Marines and thus should be special. A lot of units in other armies that are very powerful have inherent deep strike at 9" away from T2. The Drop Pod is supposed to be THE surgical strike tool that let's marines do their job. Keep the points cost the same and let it circumvent the T2 restriction, so squads can come out guns blazing where needed. In addition upon landing, the penalty for moving and firing any sort of weapon doesn't occur.

[autek mor]

If GW buff a marine unit, their Chaos equivalent would receive the same buff. And the Nurgle ones receive the same buff, along with higher toughness and FNP. And the Slaanesh ones receive the same buff, along with double fire...

 

 

The result: one day your wishes really come true,then they are pushed to Tier1, you are in Tier2.

 

 

Unless GW focus the rule enhancement on the parts which have no chaos equivalent(e.g. primaris). I don't think veteran marine players would welcome that...

 

adjusting points should help. at this stage, some loyalist units are basically fodder to some of their chaos counterparts or comparable units. make centurions cheaper and we may see them as much as obliterators. hellblasters, aggressors and super expensive transports have made centurions almost extinct.

[Captain Idaho]

That's exactly why I have refrained from points changes. Too much of a change and we need every Codex amended.

[Ishagu]

What makes you think others need changes? Chaos have a lot of utility, superior stratagems and psychic powers. They don't need the same base unit adjustment.

[autek mor]

That's exactly why I have refrained from points changes. Too much of a change and we need every Codex amended.

 

i'm not trying to be a smartass but isn't that happening anyway with FAQs and chapter approved? it is good that they are trying to balance the game but they clearly went the wrong way by making some marine units and weapons more expensive which gives us fewer choices when making point efficient lists.

[CCE1981]

I have said since I started playing Marines back in 3rd edition that Space Marines just don’t feel like the super humans they are supposed to be. With the addition of Primaris Marines I knew that my old suggestion was ideas were increasingly spot on:

 

All Infantry and bikes, excluding Characters and Scouts gain one wound and one attack. Pts for scouts reduced to 8 pts per model. All others +1-2 points per model.

 

One of the main weaknesses of Marines is bodies on the table, I think they should still struggle with that, but giving them more efficient pts/wound would help out a ton, and with the amount of multiple damage weapons out there your surviveability isn’t that outrageous. Compared to IG you are still paying more per wound, your basic unit at 10 wounds (no upgrades) would still cost nearly double what IG pays instead of being over triple for what you have now.

[Ishagu]

The problem is Marines got nerfed because for a period of 1 or so months, leading up to Chapter Approved, when they were the only faction with a codex and were superior to the index lists. Everything that has appeared since has been better, cheaper and more exciting.

 

Also, we really should be focusing on Primaris as much, if not more than the older lines. They are the future of the faction and the more likely aspect of the force to receive new units an updates. The book needs a whole host of stratagems and psychic powers built around the Primaris.

[Wargamer]

Can I suggest a minor tweak to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic?

Specify that the Venerable Dreadnought gets a 5+ FNP instead of 6+.

[autek mor]

Can I suggest a minor tweak to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic?

 

Specify that the Venerable Dreadnought gets a 5+ FNP instead of 6+.

 

make that 5+ across the board please. why should deathguard get all the fun? bad enough some of their units get a 5+ demon save on top of that.

 

@ishagu

 

as salty as i was about the primaris upon initial release, there should be no reason why they can't have fluffy and effective rules like the deathguard got.

[Rik Lightstar]

For Terminators I'd rather see them reduce ALL damage to 1 than see them gaining a wound.

 

It would give them the same sort of resilience to Heavy Weapons that is shown in the fluff, also it would make those Terminator Characters really viable and give Grey Knights a buff that they are in serious need of.

 

Rik

[Charlo]

 

Can I suggest a minor tweak to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic?

 

Specify that the Venerable Dreadnought gets a 5+ FNP instead of 6+.

 

make that 5+ across the board please. why should deathguard get all the fun? bad enough some of their units get a 5+ demon save on top of that.

 

@ishagu

 

as salty as i was about the primaris upon initial release, there should be no reason why they can't have fluffy and effective rules like the deathguard got.

 

Because Deathguard have been mutated and blessed by their patron, with their natural biology already offering horrendous resistance to damage not to mention 10,000 years of fighting hardening them.

 

Iron Hands have some bionics sure, but not to the same level.

[Captain Idaho]

Primaris have received buffs in these amendments in the form of Stratagems. As I said, I'm not prepared to put my name to something that is just buffs and points drops across the board. Likewise I'll not focus on Primaris just to keep new players excited.

 

As I mentioned - what do people think about the Drop Pod amendments suggested above? Some have said the limitations of 1st turn drops being removed. I think perhaps Primaris shouldbe allowed.

 

Personally I think Drop Pods shouldn't receive a 1st turn drop allowance simply because it would inflate the points cost dramatically. I want Space Marines to have affordable transports. We need to look at how GW would want to deal with it and the impact on the wider community.

 

I think Aggressors coming down will make a good change. Makes flamers worthwhile on them.

 

For Terminators I'd rather see them reduce ALL damage to 1 than see them gaining a wound.

 

It would give them the same sort of resilience to Heavy Weapons that is shown in the fluff, also it would make those Terminator Characters really viable and give Grey Knights a buff that they are in serious need of.

 

Rik

  

 

I considered that but it didn't help with small arms. I didn't want a situation where heavy Bolters were preferred to killing them over Autocannons!

 

Can I suggest a minor tweak to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic?

Specify that the Venerable Dreadnought gets a 5+ FNP instead of 6+.

 

 

By the Emperor, yes!

 

***

 

I agree with Land Raiders changes suggested. For a close Assult vehicle they lose so much firepower if they get charged.

[autek mor]

 

 

Can I suggest a minor tweak to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic?

 

Specify that the Venerable Dreadnought gets a 5+ FNP instead of 6+.

 

make that 5+ across the board please. why should deathguard get all the fun? bad enough some of their units get a 5+ demon save on top of that.

 

@ishagu

 

as salty as i was about the primaris upon initial release, there should be no reason why they can't have fluffy and effective rules like the deathguard got.

 

Because Deathguard have been mutated and blessed by their patron, with their natural biology already offering horrendous resistance to damage not to mention 10,000 years of fighting hardening them.

 

Iron Hands have some bionics sure, but not to the same level.

 

 

then at the very least give them something that is unique to them as the 6+ FNP is available to a few other armies as well if i'm not mistaken. the deathguard book is very well written and it is reflected in how they play. GW did put out a look of codexes in a short space of time so i can accept that the following books were written with some hindsight. if they stick with 6+ FNP next time round then every other unit should have it to reflect that, just like how their tanks had an option to have blessed autosummulcra(or however you spell it) in 30k. surely that wouldn't break the game.

[Captain Idaho]

Top post amended to reflect Iron Hands Chapter Tactics changes regarding Venerable Dreadnoughts.

[Ishagu]

Iron hands should be 5+ fnp across the board, imo.

 

Black Templars should have a 4+ fnp against psychic powers that cause mortal wounds.

[Captain Idaho]

That sort of Codex creep would undermine the whole project really. I really want GW to take this feedback seriously.

[Tokugawa]

 

Iron hands should be 5+ fnp across the board, imo.

 

Black Templars should have a 4+ fnp against psychic powers that cause mortal wounds.

 

5+ FNP on 1 wound models is OK, but it would be too effective against damage2/D3 attacks, on massive 2 wounds models.

 

It still may not break the meta, but would render usage of any other loyal chapters in competitive play, to...0%.