Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Tokugawa]

 

Also, we really should be focusing on Primaris as much, if not more than the older lines. They are the future of the faction and the more likely aspect of the force to receive new units an updates. The book needs a whole host of stratagems and psychic powers built around the Primaris.

 

 

"Which is more heretical, Chaos space marines, or Primaris space marines"?

[Ishagu]

The only Heresy is refusing to accept them

[Charlo]

I think at their current points pods would be fine for a 1st turn strike. Marines don't have much in the way of totally and utterly devastating units that getting a few of them in your face on the first turn is too problematic. It would give drop pods a use again for sure. By all means it could have a balancing factor of "no charges allowed" to focus on shooting and clearing a landing zone though?

 

Sure Space Marine transports need to be affordable, but beyond a few units the pod is pretty useless anyway, give it a full use I say.

 

Black Templars should have a 4+ fnp against psychic powers that cause mortal wounds.

 

Custodes only get a 6+ FNP against Psychic powers, 4+ on every Black Templar is insanity, 6+ would be a fine little buff though.

[Captain Idaho]

I think at their current points pods would be fine for a 1st turn strike. Marines don't have much in the way of totally and utterly devastating units that getting a few of them in your face on the first turn is too problematic. It would give drop pods a use again for sure. By all means it could have a balancing factor of "no charges allowed" to focus on shooting and clearing a landing zone though?

 

Sure Space Marine transports need to be affordable, but beyond a few units the pod is pretty useless anyway, give it a full use I say.

 

 

Black Templars should have a 4+ fnp against psychic powers that cause mortal wounds.

 

 

Custodes only get a 6+ FNP against Psychic powers, 4+ on every Black Templar is insanity, 6+ would be a fine little buff though.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

So it seems, with no points adjustment, people would prefer Drop Pods to allow units to 1st turn land anywhere, greater than 6" but no charging?

 

95pts seems fair for that.

[Ishagu]

Dont compare them like for like. Custodes have other amazing abilities.

 

It's far from game breaking. Would give BT a chance against some of the chaos armies who spam psychic powers.

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not let this thread devolve into a discussion about it.

 

I'd like to see a separate thread with all the changes you like, Ishagu.

[CCE1981]

Iron hands should be 5+ fnp across the board, imo.

 

Black Templars should have a 4+ fnp against psychic powers that cause mortal wounds.

While your at it, it’s far more fluffy for the Black Templars and Ultramarine Relics to be switched.

[Cruor Vault]

For a long time I've wanted Space Marines to have a 2CP stratagem granting a free drop pod to a single unit during deployment.  No upgrades possible to the pod, and only a single unit can be placed in the pod.

[Charlo]

 

I think at their current points pods would be fine for a 1st turn strike. Marines don't have much in the way of totally and utterly devastating units that getting a few of them in your face on the first turn is too problematic. It would give drop pods a use again for sure. By all means it could have a balancing factor of "no charges allowed" to focus on shooting and clearing a landing zone though?

 

Sure Space Marine transports need to be affordable, but beyond a few units the pod is pretty useless anyway, give it a full use I say.

 

Black Templars should have a 4+ fnp against psychic powers that cause mortal wounds.

 

Custodes only get a 6+ FNP against Psychic powers, 4+ on every Black Templar is insanity, 6+ would be a fine little buff though.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

So it seems, with no points adjustment, people would prefer Drop Pods to allow units to 1st turn land anywhere, greater than 6" but no charging?

 

95pts seems fair for that.

 

Aye, I'm hesitant to say 6", but anything to make Flamers be worth it on the drop!

[Captain Idaho]

 

Iron hands should be 5+ fnp across the board, imo.

Black Templars should have a 4+ fnp against psychic powers that cause mortal wounds.

While your at it, it’s far more fluffy for the Black Templars and Ultramarine Relics to be switched.

I'd agree with that but I doubt GW would accept such a thing. Shame really. What do people think on this?

 

(Obviously changing the name of the Crusader's Helm)

[Tokugawa]

 

Dont compare them like for like. Custodes have other amazing abilities.

 

It's far from game breaking. Would give BT a chance against some of the chaos armies who spam psychic powers.

 

 

Marines from other chapters don't have better chance than BT. Each librarian has only 1 chance to dispel per turn, and no real modifier(e.g. Tzeentch psyker could cast smite from 24", hood only provide +1 in 12"). When Tzeentch needs to cast some really important magic, usually you would be "naked" against that.

 

Maybe the best anti-psyker tools, is to introduce some 4pts guardsmen, and let them eat the mortal wounds for your marines.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

I really like the changes and would be happy to play any of them.

The only one I think needs a bit more work is the meteoric descent stratagem. I know it only costs 1 cp but it still doesn’t seem worth it. I don’t think, realistically, it will inflict many wounds on a unit. Maybe 1 or 2 each time which, personally, I don’t think compares to say 1cp to reroll the shot numbers on a D6 weapon or the damage on a D6 weapon.

Personally I would change it to one of these:

1) inflict a mortal wound on a 5+ (or even 4+)

2) change it to roll a D6 for every model in the unit being charged

3) each individual jump pack marine (rather than the unit) rolls a D6 for every model within 1 inch of it.

You may need to adjust the cp cost for one or more of those but I think the higher chances of inflicting wounds is worth it.

Just my opinion though, like said, really like the other ideas, particularly removing the need for three vehicles for the killshot or linebreaker strat.

Game balance is important here. Something simpler perhaps?

 

4+ causes D3 mortal wounds. If the squad numbers 10 models it causes 3 mortal wounds.

 

That is very powerful and probably needs to be 2 CPs though.

Yeah I could get on board with that. Perhaps I would keep it at 1CP but change your wording slightly and say D3 mortal wounds on squads of up to 10 models and 3 mortal wounds on squads with 11+ models. That way it’s not too cheesy against things like marine squads etc but does have an impact on much larger squad sizes like nids and orks where 3 casualties are more easily absorbed.

 

Might still be quite powerful for 1 cp but then when you look at what other armies can get for 1CP it actually doesn’t seem so bad. For example, the knight stratagem that lets a knight return to its top damage tier for a turn is only 1 cp and a Knight going from hitting on 5s to hitting on 3s is likely to wreak far more than three extra dead on a swarm of gaunts.

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm. It's a difficult one. I lean towards 2 CPs but am open to consider it a single CP. Knights can't always get their own CPs easily which is probably why that's a cheap Stratagem. (GW likely needs to grapple with allies...)

 

What do other people think on this?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

its an interesting list of suggestions. I think as a stop gap solution it would help, but realistically the Primaris units need help as well. I also feel that until the CP system is overhauled its gonna to be tough for an old school marine force to compete. Even with better stratagems and abilities your still competing with every imperial unit now.

 

I really feel that there should be AoS style benefits associated with each army that you only get if a certain percentage of your choices are from one codex fraction. There just is no benefit to taking your entire force from one book and that needs to change if one codex armies are gonna to be viable.

[Captain Idaho]

Totally agree with that sentiment but let's work on what we have in front of us and worry about competitive soup lists ruining the fun later.

[Ishagu]

Multi faction armies are more common than single faction forces.

[Captain Idaho]

No they're not. Unless you play tournaments and even then it's mostly just the Imperial lot.

 

And if people don't want to get involved in feedback on this constructively because it doesn't deal with the "Soup" issue, then that's okay too. Let's just not debate it here eh.

[Ishagu]

OK, here's a real issue.

 

I played a game last night with my Ultras and brought an Imperial Knight along as an auxiliary Lord of War.

I used every single one of my command points on my Imperial Knight. There wasn't a single strategem that I valued more in the Marine codex that would get me to burn CP.

 

My Knight was charging after advancing, had a 3++ the whole game and got to shoot at full BS after it was destroyed. Those are strategems worth using! There is literally nothing in the marine book that matches the quality of these.

[Tamiel]

I just want the average marine, be he armed with bolter or chainsword, to be stronger. All these stratagem changes are good and all, but they are simply bells and whistles if the core problem is ignored: Bolters do not hurt and power armour does not protect.

Some people want to take an elite army and make it even more elite by arming every unit to its teeth. That's completely fine, but the bolter and chiansword is what drew me to marines in the first place. Not the flashy plasmaguns or power weapons. And right now, on the tabletop, the bolter and chainsword are just not threatening to anyone.

[Brother Captain Ed]

OK, here's a real issue.

 

I played a game last night with my Ultras and brought an Imperial Knight along as an auxiliary Lord of War.

I used every single one of my command points on my Imperial Knight. There wasn't a single strategem that I valued more in the Marine codex that would get me to burn CP.

 

My Knight was charging after advancing, had a 3++ the whole game and got to shoot at full BS after it was destroyed. Those are strategems worth using! There is literally nothing in the marine book that matches the quality of these.

When Ish is right, he is right.

[NiceGuyAdi]

Idaho thanks for putting these thoughts out. They’re considered and don’t read like a disgruntled fanboy’s wish list, which is important if you want to put them to GW.

 

I’ve long been wondering about allowing bolters to double tap at 75% range instead of 50%, or allowing an additional shot at rapid fire range (ie 3 instead of 2), to help upgun marines in the close-mid range firefight.

 

I’m reticent about the ignore 1st turn DS rule on Drop Pods. It’d skew so many lists into going for 1st turn alpha annihilation or bust again.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the changes I've listed along with the new Stratagems ARE leading to a more powerful Codex. You all keep saying our Codex needs work and I agree, hence why this topic.

 

Changes like Predators getting +1 to wound combining with a 1 CP Stratagem is solid. Tactical Marines being able to target characters is solid. +1 to wound on BS2+ Terminators is solid.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Tamil has hit the nail on the head there. I played against some Thousand Sons at the weekend and Rubricae are nails. They cost more, but they survive like marines should, and they do better shooting damage. My marines couldn't touch them.

[Captain Idaho]

We already know Marines need a hand. That's what is topic is for. Stop dragging it off topic stating the obvious with nothing useful to add.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Terminators must always have an invulnerable save.