Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Charlo]

 

 

 

3 wounds is a massively different prospect from 2.

That would be a huge boost to Termies.

Yes and together with WS and BS changes Terminators might become dangerous again.

 

It's these sorts of changes, small and subtle, that GW are more likely to accept and the spirit of the changes I am working on.

3W 2+WS/BS Terminators to me, does not feel like a Subtle Change... That is reaching for Custodes level of power.

 

I almost feel like reducing damage rolls by 1 to a minimum of 1 is better, as that makes D2 & Dd3 weapons a lot less reliable and feels like their armour making a difference. Then I'd say give all Terminators some kind of special rule upon deep strike - maybe re-roll shooting hits for Tactical ones and re-roll charge/ deny overwatch for Assault ones?

Terminators SHOULD be almost at Custodes level. They are elites amongst elites.

 

The custodes are still superior with better Invul. Too many modifiers like that grind the game down.

 

Also, dont compare like that. Loads of models have 3 wounds that aren't on the level of Custodes.

 

Okay let's use a different comparison, that is commander level. I'll admit there is a massive disconnect between a commander and veteran (a veteran gets promoted to a commander and is suddenly a better fighter?) and it also falls down to the lack of granular numbers in a D6 system.

 

Also, please stop telling me to not compare things a certain way, cheers :)

[Panzer]

 

 

 

3 wounds is a massively different prospect from 2.

That would be a huge boost to Termies.

Yes and together with WS and BS changes Terminators might become dangerous again.

 

It's these sorts of changes, small and subtle, that GW are more likely to accept and the spirit of the changes I am working on.

3W 2+WS/BS Terminators to me, does not feel like a Subtle Change... That is reaching for Custodes level of power.

 

I almost feel like reducing damage rolls by 1 to a minimum of 1 is better, as that makes D2 & Dd3 weapons a lot less reliable and feels like their armour making a difference. Then I'd say give all Terminators some kind of special rule upon deep strike - maybe re-roll shooting hits for Tactical ones and re-roll charge/ deny overwatch for Assault ones?

Terminators SHOULD be almost at Custodes level. They are elites amongst elites.

 

The custodes are still superior with better Invul. Too many modifiers like that grind the game down.

 

Also, dont compare like that. Loads of models have 3 wounds that aren't on the level of Custodes.

 

 

Crisis Suits for example have T5 W3 Sv3+, Tyranid Tyrant Guard have T5 W3 Sv3+ and the Tyranid Hive Guard have T4 W3 Sv4+.

 

I'm all for Terminators with W3 and WS/BS 2+ (I do think it should be either or depending on whether it's Tactical Terminators or Assault Terminators tho).

[Ipsen]

Terminators must always have an invulnerable save.

 

Why? AP-4 isn't that common (and helblasters have enough shots to tear through terminators without it), its 2 damage weapons that make terminators too easy to kill. There are a lot of buffs to terminators that i would gladly swap the (barely fluff justified) invulnerable save for.

 

-1 to wound (harlequins have it so why not)

halve incoming damage (abaddon has it)

feel no pain (blightlords already have it and are T5  4++ which pushes them into only okay)

T5 (centurions already have it and aren't that survivable)

 

The only really good thing about the 5++ is that its the only way librarians and sorcerers can get an invun.

 

 

They do. It's just their inv save was balanced for last edition and gws design team are mouth breathers.

 

 

The invun was barely balanced for 3rd edition. The only time terminators have been good pre early 8th ed was when 5th ed introduced 3+ storm shields.

 

 

Ok the previous armour penetration mechanic. And yes i can't remember a time when termies haven't been hopelessly over costed compared to the weapons that kill them.

[Charlo]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat when did Crisis Suits get T5?!?!? That's madness.

[Ishagu]

Point is, Terminators should indeed be 3 wounds with better BS or WS.

[Captain Idaho]

It's a discussion needed to be had.

 

Terminators at the moment are under powered and die on the table easier than equivalent Tactical Marines points for point. So there's 2 routes to take.

 

1st is reduce points. This causes problems elsewhere in the list however, as well as between other armies that also have Terminators to balance with totally different units.

 

The 2nd way of fixing Terminators is to improve their performance. They need to be more survivable and already have a 2+ armour save. The quick and easy way to do it is increase their wounds to be in line with expectations. Even Ork Nobz have 3 wounds!

 

The other easy fix is increase them to 2+ WS and BS.

 

Both are easy and seamless whilst keeping rules book keeping down for players. It does NOT tread on the toes of Custodes, who have better invulnerable saves, can ignore Mortal Wounds, more attacks, Strength and Toughness 5 and better weapons.

 

It certainly doesn't tread on the toes of Marines Characters. They have special abilities and superior stats.

[SickSix]

3W BS2+ WS2+ would be awesome for Terminators. They have never lived up to their fluff since 5th ed Hammer and Shield guys.

[Ishagu]

The thing is, event that wouldn't make them particularly powerful.

 

3 wounds at around 40ish point with wargear, still less efficient than say... 2 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles.

We should be looking for a point reduction on top of that.

 

An Imperial Knight pays 11 points per Toughness 8 wound with a 3+ 5++ that can be improved to 2+ 3++ for free

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe but I leave that up to GW.

 

Though I dispute Intercessors are as efficient as Terminators as they're better in close combat with the stat changes. Totally different units.

[Captain Idaho]

Land Raider changes added as suggested.

 

I want to change Drop Pods to include Primaris. It's iconic and I doubt we'll get a separate Primaris Drop Pod. I'd like to see Aggressors with flamers worthwhile again.

[Ishagu]

Intercesor in cover is as tough as a Terminator, has better range and a gun that is efficient at killing both hordes and slightly more elite unit.

2 Intercessors is 4 attacks in CC

4 shots at 15" range at -1 AP, 2 shots at 30

4 wound spread across two models

 

Obv a Terminator has a power fist, but you're looking at a single hit on average.

Same number of worse shots

2 wounds speard across a single model

 

These things need to be considered. And remember, Intercessors are UNDER-POWERED at the moment lol

[phoenix01]

I have an issue with Scouts myself. At 11 points, they are way too attractive a Troops choice as compared to Tactical Marines, what with their WS and BS being 3+ like a regular Marine on top of their Concealed Positions ability and access to camo cloaks. Consider the power level. A Tactical Squad is power level 5, whereas a Scout Squad is power level 6, yet scouts are cheaper in points per model than their senior brethren. These guys are Marines-in-training and should reflect that in their rules. A possible solution would be to make scouts WS4+/BS 4+ with only their sergeant being WS3+/BS3+ to indicate his seniority. Another would be to shift Scout Squads from Troops to either Elite or Fast Attack.

[Ishagu]

Scouts should be even cheaper than that, imo. I think they should stay as a troop.

Probably around 9 points. Marines at 10.

[Captain Idaho]

Intercesor in cover is as tough as a Terminator, has better range and a gun that is efficient at killing both hordes and slightly more elite unit.

2 Intercessors is 4 attacks in CC

4 shots at 15" range at -1 AP, 2 shots at 30

4 wound spread across two models

Obv a Terminator has a power fist, but you're looking at a single hit on average.

Same number of worse shots

2 wounds speard across a single model

These things need to be considered. And remember, Intercessors are UNDER-POWERED at the moment lol

We're talking about the changes to Terminators - they hit on a 3+ with a power fist and on a 2+ with 4 shots (they teleport remember) and will have 3 wounds, an invulnerable save and ALSO benefit from cover.

 

I mean, why would you take Terminators to hide in the backfield and hold objectives? If you use Genestealers to do that then sure they are inefficient.

[Panzer]

Scouts should honestly be more expensive than Tacticals. The ability to infiltrate far outweights the Sv4+ and they can still take a Power weapon on the Sergeant and a Heavy Bolter/Missile Launcher which coincidentaly also have great Stratagem support.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not sure I'll touch Scouts points. Like much of the Codex I'm only going to deal with major points issues. It's too core and fundamental to change points for everything.

[Panzer]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat when did Crisis Suits get T5?!?!? That's madness.

 

Since the Index where their cost per model (without weapons!) got also raised to above Terminator levels (with weapons). ;)

[Captain Idaho]

Can we stop talking about off topic things? I care so little about Tau I'm numb writing this.

 

Going forward I will have to remove off topic posts.

[MARK0SIAN]

What do people think about T5 for Terminators? Either in conjunction with some of the other changes mentioned or as a single boost.

 

I think it would improve their durability by quite a stretch as it would affect wound rolls from quite a variety of weapons like bolters, heavy bolters which should find it hard to wound a terminator and also means that it’s harder to wound them on a 2.

[BloodWolves]

Well I agree that a normal Tactical Marine needs to be better. The way they play is so very different from the fluff and same with the bolter. I think a 2 point reduction would help but also something in their unit stat line or basic load out has to increase.

I know it'll never happen but the way fluff writes about the revered bolter is like S5 AP-2. Though I know that will never happen. Maybe S5 AP-1. Rapid Fire 2

And my personal favorite, Heavy Bolter.. model it after an actual Support Weapon and maybe S5 AP-1 Heavy 5 Rounds ignore cover (cause the rounds destroy cover.. Ie. M60 vs Concrete) and to have the "Suspensors" rule. No penalty after movement, but range is at 20".

 

If you look at the first Dawn of War opener.. How many hits and wounds does the Marine take before planting the flag.. he takes 5 hits and 2 grievous ones. I would make it 2 wounds for tactical and for intercessor.. 3 wounds but a condition on the final wound that a 4+ must be rolled to represent the Belisarius Furnace kicking in or it was still in a refractory period from the last wound before it could be used.

 

Maybe the ability to combine Intercessors and Tacticals in a Squad might help?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Intercesor in cover is as tough as a Terminator, has better range and a gun that is efficient at killing both hordes and slightly more elite unit.

2 Intercessors is 4 attacks in CC

4 shots at 15" range at -1 AP, 2 shots at 30

4 wound spread across two models

 

Obv a Terminator has a power fist, but you're looking at a single hit on average.

Same number of worse shots

2 wounds speard across a single model

 

These things need to be considered. And remember, Intercessors are UNDER-POWERED at the moment lol

 

Your not factoring in special weapons for terminators, and built in deep strike is a powerful ability. Not really suggesting their better because I haven't used terminators much but I think you need to provide an argument including their strengths when judging those two units, more so because the basic gun, two wounds, and two attacks are the Intercessors selling points.

 

 

 

What do people think about T5 for Terminators? Either in conjunction with some of the other changes mentioned or as a single boost.

 

I think it would improve their durability by quite a stretch as it would affect wound rolls from quite a variety of weapons like bolters, heavy bolters which should find it hard to wound a terminator and also means that it’s harder to wound them on a 2.

 

T5 would be interesting, and I like it more than increasing BS & WS. It has the benefit of providing the characters in it a buff, which is nice. That and it doesn't open the can of worms that increasing their BS & WS does because if their BS & WS is increased what about the other 1st company vet style units? 

[BloodWolves]

Any ideas to make the Apothecary more of a important role? Personally I do like them in elite slot but always wondered if there should be a Chief Apothecary as an HQ choice (I do have a bit of a soft spot for them as I see them as the "Paramedics" of the battlefield and Im a Paramedic). I feel like a Chief Apothecary would have the same stat line as a Chaplain. Give a larger Narthecium coverage and on a 3+ brings back a single unit vs a 4+ Id call in Veteran Medicine. And a 6" bubble of something like what an Ancient does with like a "last stand" rule as like the Chief Apothecary administed a shot of Adrenaline to overload the Marine and give it one more shot or attack in fight phase.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

While I agree with keeping Scouts at 11, Neophytes should be cheaper as they don't have any abilities, buffs and no access to special or heavy weapons. (Looks longingly at his long unbuilt metal heavy bolter scout models.)

[CCE1981]

I am not liking the idea of 2+ BS and WS on a Terminator. I think ignoring hit modifiers in close combat and moving and firing heavy weapons would do it.

I have advocated 3 wounds on Terminators for a while now, but I am not sure about T5 I would have to see that work before I make a decision.

Their heavy weapons need a point decrease, the Cylcone Missile Launcher is worse than two Missile Launchers.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

T5 makes sense. Why is it that wearing tactical dreadnought armour makes you less tough than riding a bike?