Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Panzer]

T5 kinda crosses over into the area of Deathguard/Primaris Aggressor (who are clearly designed to be more durable than regular Primaris but in a different way than Terminators). What would that make for Deathguard? Their Blightlords and Deathguard would suddenly turn into T5 W3 Sv2+/4++/5+++ monsters.

[justicarius6]

I'm not so sure about increasing the combat skills to 2+. That would mean they had better stats than their non-TD brethren and also better than lieutenants.

 

One of the big problems with Terminators happened when they started doling out weaponry that previously in the fluff only they could wield due to being so heavy and cumbersome, to normal marines. It makes me wonder why regular bolters even exist anymore when everyone and their mums can tote a stormbolter one handed.

 

Back to the matter in hand; Termies need either a flat boost to T5 and W3 or half-damage from weaponry. They need to be made tough again.

 

A strategem that benefitted their teleportation wouldn't go amiss either:

 

Risky Teleport - 1CP A unit of terminators (or assault terminators) held in reserve may teleport within 6" of an enemy unit instead of the usual 9". For each model in the unit roll a dice, for each six rolled the terminator unit takes a mortal wound.

[PeteySödes]

The Ap -1 or 2 immunity and half damage rounding down would be pretty great. It’d make it a 4+ to kill outright in a D-d6 situation and a 5+ on a d3. That would make them pretty attractive to me.

 

Not to mention he ability that would give them to go toe to toe with what I would generally throw them at in combat.

[Captain Idaho]

Terminator Armour was always supposed to be more than pure protection but a combat enhancing suit. It had in built targeters in 2nd Edition and the large bulk of it makes close combat with them almost unstoppable. It makes sense to have increased stats.

 

I should probably extend it to characters too.

[Panzer]

WS2+ would also help with them having only 2 attacks but carrying heavy melee weapons like powerfists and thunderhammers which let them hit only on 4+ (or worse) currently.

[Captain Idaho]

Exactly.

 

I don't want to introduce needless special rules that complicate things. A simple extra wound is quick and easy.

 

I'm not adverse to Marine wide ignoring of -1 AP but does anyone really think GW will go for it?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You have presented an elegant solution Brother Idaho and I am onboard with it.

[Brother Casman]

[snip]

 

I'm not adverse to Marine wide ignoring of -1 AP but does anyone really think GW will go for it?

The Seraphon in Age of Sigmar have exactly this effect. Their shields ignore Rend of -1. So, there's precedent in the other system, at least.

[Panzer]

Age of Sigmar has a very different dynamic tho.

[Wargamer]

It's also an absolutely terrible rule. I guarantee that if you give that to Terminators, two codices later you'll be able to field an entire army that ignores AP-1, and the one after that will spam AP-2 to compensate.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

The other half of the Seraphon rule is that most don't have a save better than 4+ to balance that.  I think in the end an extra wound, or a rounding down of damage to a minimum of 1 might be the best course, since there are many many armies with terminators in this game.  sfPanzer brings up an excellent point about chaos terminators, I know my blight lords and Scarab Occult would become a lot more appealing with this change than my Templar terminators.  I fully believe terminators are extremely hard to balance nowadays, perhaps we go way back to the 3+ armor save on 3d6 

[Panzer]

Well Nighthaunts also have a rule that their armor save can't be modified in any way. I don't think we get anywhere by looking at AoS units. We know perfectly fine what's possible to do and what not. The question is what's appropriate for 40k which is not necessarily the same as for AoS. 

[Captain Idaho]

The systems aren't really comparable from an armour saves rules. Wounds spill over and models don't really have saves better than a 4+ nor Rend better than -2.

 

All these fixes I propose are in a theme and style consistent with 8th edition so GW will embrace them more readily.

 

Don't get me wrong, they might not like them and they might be a wrong direction but at least I'm trying.

 

***

Drop Pods amended to include Primaris.

[Closet Skeleton]

The other half of the Seraphon rule is that most don't have a save better than 4+ to balance that.

 

Very little in AoS has a 4+ save before modifiers and even on gods their rend generally doesn't go above -2.

 

 

Well Nighthaunts also have a rule that their armor save can't be modified in any way. I don't think we get anywhere by looking at AoS units. We know perfectly fine what's possible to do and what not. The question is what's appropriate for 40k which is not necessarily the same as for AoS. 

That's just an invun in a system with even less generic terms than 8th ed 40k.

 

A Tactical Squad is power level 5, whereas a Scout Squad is power level 6, yet scouts are cheaper in points per model than their senior brethren.

 

Scouts have higher power level because of camo cloaks. Fully upgraded scouts are more expensive than tactical marines in points too.

 

 

Terminators SHOULD be almost at Custodes level. They are elites amongst elites.

 

 

They're just elites, all the different veteran types are just equipment options, the whole first company could suit up if they want to.

[Charlo]

I am not liking the idea of 2+ BS and WS on a Terminator. I think ignoring hit modifiers in close combat and moving and firing heavy weapons would do it.

I have advocated 3 wounds on Terminators for a while now, but I am not sure about T5 I would have to see that work before I make a decision.

Their heavy weapons need a point decrease, the Cylcone Missile Launcher is worse than two Missile Launchers.

 

You're onto something here I think...

 

Terminators ignoring the to hit penalty on a Powerfist and Heavy Weapons would make a lot of sense to me and is one way to buff thier output without messing with Raw stats.

 

Combine this with 3W OR reducing all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1 (I prefer the latter) and you are looking better already.

[Captain Idaho]

Ignoring the hit modifiers isn't terrible an idea. But I think the damage output of Terminators is more than just heavy weapons and power fist close combat. Why take Lightning Claws if they don't hit better? Storm Bolter/Twin Bolter fire should still be effective and 20 odd shots hitting on a 2+ is not bad.

[CCE1981]

Something I would prefer to see is a change, whole game issue here so I apologize if it is a bit off topic, but Invulnerable saves turning into a + to armor save.  A Vanguard Veteran with a Storm Shield for instance would have a 3+ save with a +3 save due to the Storm Shield.  The armor save wouldn't be able to get better, but would function to reduce the AP of an attack, this leaves cover its own separate benefit while also making Invulnerable saves useful.

[Marshal Arthur]

I think all space marine veterans should hit on a 2+ in their respective specialization (WS for vanguard and assault termites and BS for sternguard and tactical termites). As it stands there really isn’t a huge difference between regular marines and veterans and that would go a long way to marking them as superior warriors. Terminators with 3 wounds doesn’t seem too far fetched, and maybe an improved invuln save. I mean mutants in the Imperial Guard are more durable and better armored with a slab of metal on their arm vs. high tech power armor and a force shield. I also think drop pods should allow the occupants to disembark normally (so a 3” move without any 9” restriction) and perhaps I clue a stratagem where they’re allowed to charge as well. We also need rules to encourage mobility. Right now with heavy weapon modifiers and our reliance on reroll bubbles were encouraged to run relatively static gun lines which is not at all how marines are supposed to be played.

[Ipsen]

Something I would prefer to see is a change, whole game issue here so I apologize if it is a bit off topic, but Invulnerable saves turning into a + to armor save.  A Vanguard Veteran with a Storm Shield for instance would have a 3+ save with a +3 save due to the Storm Shield.  The armor save wouldn't be able to get better, but would function to reduce the AP of an attack, this leaves cover its own separate benefit while also making Invulnerable saves useful.

 God damn it .  I literally just wrote a thread about precisely this.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is kind of going OT. Like Cpt Idaho said this is for 8th edition not wish listing or next edition.

[CCE1981]

 

Something I would prefer to see is a change, whole game issue here so I apologize if it is a bit off topic, but Invulnerable saves turning into a + to armor save.  A Vanguard Veteran with a Storm Shield for instance would have a 3+ save with a +3 save due to the Storm Shield.  The armor save wouldn't be able to get better, but would function to reduce the AP of an attack, this leaves cover its own separate benefit while also making Invulnerable saves useful.

 God damn it .  I literally just wrote a thread about precisely this.

 

Read your post, we are on the same wavelength with that.

[Panzer]

 

Well Nighthaunts also have a rule that their armor save can't be modified in any way. I don't think we get anywhere by looking at AoS units. We know perfectly fine what's possible to do and what not. The question is what's appropriate for 40k which is not necessarily the same as for AoS.

 

That's just an invun in a system with even less generic terms than 8th ed 40k.

 

You're partially right. It's an invulnerable save in a system without anything like that. Even Daemons use the regular save mechanic and are affected by Rend like other units in AoS.

However as said before, it doesn't make much sense to compare things with AoS so let's just drop it here.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The unit that is most comparable to Terminators imo are Bullgryns.  

 

5 Bullgryns with shields and mauls costs 210 points and they have a 2+ save or 4++, T5, S7 with mauls,  WS 3+, 3 attacks(4 on the charge), 6" movement, and 3 wounds.  A vastly better stat line than terminators.  Additionally, Bullgryns have superior stratagem and psychic power support enabling them to achieve 2++ invulv saves or -1+ armour saves in cover.  

 

If Bullgryns are a solid choice with their current cost and statline then why not just have Terminators with T5, 3 wounds, 3 attacks, 6" movement and some decent stratagem support?  

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like another Stratagem or two that boosts Terminators. Any ideas guys?

 

***

 

You make a compelling case for T5 Terminators. Certainly I feel justified in changing them to 2+ WS and BS and 3 wounds now.

 

Gravis Armour grants +1 toughness so it's not out of the realms of possibility.

 

It's just spit balling but we used to all suggest this previous editions... Why not allow Terminators to take their Invulnerable save in addition to regular save? More effective than +1 toughness.

 

I'm really liking this.

[Panzer]

It's just spit balling but we used to all suggest this previous editions... Why not allow Terminators to take their Invulnerable save in addition to regular save? More effective than +1 toughness.

 

 

That's not going to happen. GW just changed the FnP rules so that you can't ever take more than one of such rolls to reduce the amount of times people have to roll.