Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Captain Idaho]

Um, Disgustingly Resilient comes after armour saves?

 

*Edited*

 

Iron Hands are an issue somewhat. I guess it's a case of taking the better save - Terminator Armour trumps Chapter Tactic.

[Panzer]

Um, Disgustingly Resilient comes after armour saves?

 

*Edited*

 

Iron Hands are an issue somewhat. I guess it's a case of taking the better save - Terminator Armour trumps Chapter Tactic.

 

Yes I know? But you can't stack FnP stuff anymore. Before if you had two 6+++ you could roll both one after another. Now you simply have a single 6+++ and the other doesn't count.

Point is that GW made a change to reduce the amount of rolling. Allowing a unit to take a second save (invul in this case) goes in the exact opposite direction and add another roll to the sequence again.

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm. Good point. It causes problems for Death Guard and Iron Hands.

[PeteySödes]

I'd like another Stratagem or two that boosts Terminators. Any ideas guys?

 

***

 

You make a compelling case for T5 Terminators. Certainly I feel justified in changing them to 2+ WS and BS and 3 wounds now.

 

Gravis Armour grants +1 toughness so it's not out of the realms of possibility.

 

It's just spit balling but we used to all suggest this previous editions... Why not allow Terminators to take their Invulnerable save in addition to regular save? More effective than +1 toughness.

 

I'm really liking this.

 

I'd love maybe a stratagem that echos the old Arjac's sheildbrothers formation. Could be used in the enemy shooting phase for more potency as a reactive strat. Also could be tailored a bit to fit the previous suggestions.

 

Shield Formation - 1 CP to increase a unit containing X storm shields to T5. 

[Wargamer]

I really don't think Terminators have to be the most unkillable unit on the board. Three wounds seems right as it'll keep them around longer and it makes plasma spam a lot less effective for killing them (two overcharged shots to drop one Terminator is pricey!).

 

My point of concern would be Cats with claws, as they're far too slow to be a combat unit as is.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I really don't think Terminators have to be the most unkillable unit on the board. Three wounds seems right as it'll keep them around longer and it makes plasma spam a lot less effective for killing them (two overcharged shots to drop one Terminator is pricey!).

 

My point of concern would be Cats with claws, as they're far too slow to be a combat unit as is.

I disagree.  For their cost they need to be hard to remove since they do not shoot well or move fast.  They are also very vulnerable to smite spam or any form of mortal wound spam.  Im not convinced that just adding a 3rd wound is good enough since terminators are vulnerable to volume of dice AND multiwound in addition to being slow.  Both of those weaknesses have to go away almost entirely.  T5 and 3w would really help against both ontop of stratagem support which is currently lacking.   

[Captain Idaho]

Cataphractii with 3 wounds and hitting on a 2+, alongside cheaper Land Raiders and teleport, should help them.

[9x19 Parabellum]

The more I think about this, the more I start coming around to the idea of T5 terminators.

 

I used to be of the idea that toughness represented the combination of <tissue resiliency> + <mental fortitude>; to wit, it was entirely linked to the biology of the organism occupying/making up the model.  As the game evolved, and Armor Saves, Wounds, Toughness, Feel No Pain and other special rules all started to reflect the model's durability in some form or another, I started to realize that this interpreation was flawed.

 

Example: no Tau pilot (the actual member of the species wearing the battlesuit) is T5. The T5 rating given to a crisis suit model is entirely representative of the battlesuit itself, not the wearer. 

 

I don't know where the fine line between Armor (and by "Armor" I mean <anything surrounding your soft tissue that protects you from harm, which could be power armor, TDA, a battlesuit, or a rhino tank>) as Toughness and Armor as Armor Save begins/ends.

 

I have always understood Wounds to be a function of mass, except for characters, where wounds are a function of the will to continue on fighting.  That, I don't think, has changed much, as it's generally true in WH40k that big things have more wounds, all other attributes aside.

 

If it's true then that biological strength is no longer sole determinant of the "Toughness" Characteristic, it seems absurd to chain Terminators to their legacy "T4" rating, while Aggressors, Crisis Suits and other things vault into the "T5" attribute without so much as a "by your leave". 

 

This may have a ripple affect that requires looking at many other things, but that's an aside; it seems right to me that Termies should be T5.

[BloodWolves]

Can anyone with good photoshop skills make an updated Chaplain sheet with the rules the OP made?

[Panzer]

inb4 we can find it as rumour on bols :D

[SickSix]

Yeah I never truly understood how a PA marine was the same S and T as a terminator. I get that Dionne stuff is abstract, but that is breaking immersion in a big way.

[Captain Idaho]

Repulsor points cost decreased and Redemptor Dreadnought changed to ignore the penalty to moving and firing with heavy weapons.

 

The latter is a no brainer since the thing is rubbish right now for average guns. It has a D6 damage fist for a reason!

[PeteySödes]

Repulsor points cost decreased and Redemptor Dreadnought changed to ignore the penalty to moving and firing with heavy weapons.

 

The latter is a no brainer since the thing is rubbish right now for average guns. It has a D6 damage fist for a reason!

Any reason this wouldn’t apply to all dreads? Seems like something to make them a bit better in regards to recent codexes.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I'd consider that. It's just me being conservative since other races' vehicles don't get that benefit.

 

What's the feeling on this issue folk.

[MARK0SIAN]

I believe all dreads should get to ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. They’re pretty stable platforms, they’ve got additional targeting systems and lets not forget, they’re crewed by a Space Marine who earnt that ‘reward’.

 

From a gameplay perspective there are plenty of other units in game that are on an equal or less stable platform than a dread that get to ignore the penalty. Necron Heavy destroyers, the Helverin, even Tallarn vehicles like sentinels.

[Guest MistaGav]

One simple buff for the dreadnoughts is their close combat weapon should have a sweep attack profile similar to what the Armiger Warglaives have as that would help massively with fighting hordes.

One thing I'd like to see in Terminators is a bit more flexibility in weapon loadouts similar to what the Deathwatch have. Currently a DW 5 man squad can have 3 heavy weapons, all can take power swords and all sorts. In some cases it makes them cheaper than regular terminator squads.

 

Chronus available as a generic tank commander for other SM factions too.

Make Vindicators, Predators, Whirlwinds, Stalkers, Hunters available in squads of 3.
Tempestus Scions can take 2 special weapons for every 5 man, why not give Tac squads that option too. Also give them the option to swap the bolt pistol for a chainsword. Maybe even extend that to Assault squad and Dev squads too. Gives an incentive to take more 10 man squads but not diminishing the flexibility of smaller units too.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Sweep attacks on dreads and a generic tank commander would be a good idea and useful. Implementation may be difficult.

 

Idaho asked for a Terminator Stratagem idea, and I think I have one.

 

Precision Teleport Strike 2CP

 

Cross-linked auspexes and sensors pick out the enemy’s positions and relay that information to the orbiting Astartes vessel. The data is fed into the teleportarium cogitators and used to deliver the chapter’s Terminator veterans into close quarters.

 

Use this stratagem before deploying a unit with the <TERMINATOR> keyword by Teleport Strike. So long as a friendly <ADEPTUS ASTARTES> unit can see the location, the <TERMINATOR> unit may arrive within three inches of the enemy instead of the usual nine inches.

 

The idea is a unit of termies (any type) or any character wearing terminator armor can use this strat. Wording may need reworked, as I wrote this without my codex to hand.

 

Wonder if this is worth 2 or 3 CP. Either way, I hope this helps Cap!

[Cpt_Reaper]

Can something be done about the Volkite Charger to make it a lot less...well awkward?

Tartaros Sergeants can swap their combi-bolter for the Charger or a Plasma Blaster right...well look at this:

 

Combi-Bolter is 24" Rapid Fire 2 S4 Ap- 1D

Plasma Blaster is 18" Assault 2 S7 Ap-3 1D

Volkite Charger is 15" Heavy 2 S5 Ap- 2D

 

The combi-bolter has better range so is shooting earlier, the Plasma Blaster has better Ap and can overcharge for equal damage.

 

The Volkite Charger suffers -1 to hit when moving, has no Ap, is out-ranged by both options and out performed by both under 12".

 

I would either change the Volkite to Assault 2 or leave it Heavy 2 but have wounds generate additional wounds on a 6+ (which of course do not cause more) for a slight price increase. Because right now either you leave the combi-bolter for a third of the Volkites price or take the Blaster for just under three times its price.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd change the Plasma Blaster to Rapid Fire 2 and increase the points slightly, then change the Volkite Charger to represent a proper laser scouring through opponents, like this:

 

Heavy 1, S5, D2, AP-2 - Each time this weapon kills a model then immediately roll to hit and wound another model in the unit.

 

But then I doubt this would go down.

[Charlo]

IMO all marines feel like they should be able to move and fire heavy weapons, even if it is at a reduced speed.

 

Dreads and Terminators should completely remove the restriction.

 

In terms of other factions so the same for their analogues I suppose, make it a feature of "walkers" - they can only mount a few weapons but they can fire them on the move with impunity.

 

Tanks should bring back combat speed too where they can move half and have no penalty etc as well. Or at least Predators should I guess!

[Wargamer]

Predators being able to fire their main gun without penalty when moving seems a good call - it helps reinforce the idea that Marines are a rapid-strike army.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like Predators to get a bonus for enfilade fire at enemy vehicles and monsters to simulate their mobility and role as a hunter killer rather than a pillbox.

 

Without side armour this is hard to achieve. Any ideas for a simple rule?

[CCE1981]

I'd like Predators to get a bonus for enfilade fire at enemy vehicles and monsters to simulate their mobility and role as a hunter killer rather than a pillbox.

 

Without side armour this is hard to achieve. Any ideas for a simple rule?

Reroll all failed wounds of a weapon fired from a Predator if the target is within half range of the weapon fired.

[Captain Idaho]

That's interesting. Makes sense as it's lining up for a more accurate kill shot.

[Nalim]

My two cents: One of the central problems of Codex:SM right now is that in most cases, the best way to play is to clump everything together. To make deployment a little more varied (and...well..increasing SM power level in general) I have the following suggestions:

 

• Give the SM captain both the reroll 1s to hit and reroll 1s to wound aura.
• Change the lieutenants reroll 1s to a rule like this "As long as space marine captain is on the battlefield, the lieutenant gains [the captain's reroll aura].

This way, taking a captain+lieutenant (or even two lieutenants, which seems to be the "fluffy" way) nets a desirable bonus: More mobility, less clumping. Since Guilliman's aura can't be extended, taking him wouldn't be a no-brainer anymore: You can have his way better aura but are limited to clump deployment or you can take captain+lieutenants for more options.

 

What do you think about it?