Codex Space Marines Amendments

[Panzer]

My two cents: One of the central problems of Codex:SM right now is that in most cases, the best way to play is to clump everything together. To make deployment a little more varied (and...well..increasing SM power level in general) I have the following suggestions:

 

• Give the SM captain both the reroll 1s to hit and reroll 1s to wound aura.
• Change the lieutenants reroll 1s to a rule like this "As long as space marine captain is on the battlefield, the lieutenant gains [the captain's reroll aura].

This way, taking a captain+lieutenant (or even two lieutenants, which seems to be the "fluffy" way) nets a desirable bonus: More mobility, less clumping. Since Guilliman's aura can't be extended, taking him wouldn't be a no-brainer anymore: You can have his way better aura but are limited to clump deployment or you can take captain+lieutenants for more options.

 

What do you think about it?

 

I can see what you're intending with that change and it's a good attempt but I don't think it would work out.

Space Marines are too expensive to need that many bubbles normally and more importantly, Captains are a LOT better than Lieutenants and cost only slightly more so if the Lieutenant has nothing unique going for him people would just take more Captains if they think they need more of those bubbles making the Lieutenant even less of a choice than he is currently.

[Nalim]

 

I can see what you're intending with that change and it's a good attempt but I don't think it would work out.

Space Marines are too expensive to need that many bubbles normally and more importantly, Captains are a LOT better than Lieutenants and cost only slightly more so if the Lieutenant has nothing unique going for him people would just take more Captains if they think they need more of those bubbles making the Lieutenant even less of a choice than he is currently.

 

 

Yeah, you're right, I didn't think of this. The underlying problem, though, is (in my opinion) the biggest flaw of the current marine iteration. Thanks to the way our characters (captains, lieutenants, Rob G. and the worst offender: ancient) work, we are kind of forced into balling everything into a six-inch circle. Points adjustments won't change that.

 

In order to make SM an interesting army again, we need to get rid of aura dominance.

 

A practical example: My primaris hellblasters are (right now) one of the few competetive choices I have. My opponents know this and focus them. They die like flies.

 

In order to make them work (and it does in mildly competetive environments) there's only a single good way to deploy them: Guilliman and Ancient in the middle, all models (15-20 depending in game size) within 6 inches of the ancient. Looks crappy, but at least they get some (highly impactful) shots out before they get shot to pieces. However, that's not the way I expected my marines to work.

[chapter master 454]

Would comment that assault centurions need their points amended differently: Due to the fact their siege drills are free this means there is a massive difference still between devastator centurions and assault centurions. Ether up point assault centurions a little from 45 (to account for free siege drills) or put a cost on siege drills like say 10-15 points (they are mega chainfists...can't remember their exact stat-line but I know they hit HARD).

 

A decent list of changes really.

 

Marines really do need something like this as I feel being the first codex out the gate the designers were a little too reserved in writing. Playing marines in comparison to every other codex feels like ice-skating up hill. Heck, when I play my eldar building a list is almost impossible to not be good because...well...even if I went guardian spam that would be fairly decent! Imperial Guard? Run CP battery with a combination of most of their tanks and you are set! Even now I am playing Imperial Knights and they feel leagues above marines!

It is so odd to see the "poster boy" army not be more powerful in the game because you would think GW would want them to be powerful to attract sales...cynical shallow tin-foil hat theory mentality there anyway.

[Captain Idaho]

Interesting points. I hate clumping myself and as an Ultramarines player I can mitigate that somewhat with a Dreadnought and Scions of Guilliman, but it's a genuine problem with strategic and tactical play for Marines players.

 

- The banner perhaps can't be changed much without it being useless or just plain unrealistic. However, I was thinking of limiting it to the Shooting model can only shoot at targets up to 12" away, to encourage a more dynamic play instead of gunline babysitting.

 

- Captains and Lieutenants auras: this is another thing I'm not happy about. Gunline Marines is distinctly NOT what they're supposed to be. Marines should be the premium close ranged units in the game. The best solution for this though would perhaps be to boost Marines at rapid fire ranges. I'll go back to the Stratagems and take a look at my new ones to boost that.

[Captain Idaho]

Would comment that assault centurions need their points amended differently: Due to the fact their siege drills are free this means there is a massive difference still between devastator centurions and assault centurions. Ether up point assault centurions a little from 45 (to account for free siege drills) or put a cost on siege drills like say 10-15 points (they are mega chainfists...can't remember their exact stat-line but I know they hit HARD).

 

I considered that but I'm concerned no one takes Assault Centurions anyway. The added cost of a Land Raider being required doesn't help.

 

What's consensus here?

[chapter master 454]

Interesting points. I hate clumping myself and as an Ultramarines player I can mitigate that somewhat with a Dreadnought and Scions of Guilliman, but it's a genuine problem with strategic and tactical play for Marines players.

 

- The banner perhaps can't be changed much without it being useless or just plain unrealistic. However, I was thinking of limiting it to the Shooting model can only shoot at targets up to 12" away, to encourage a more dynamic play instead of gunline babysitting.

 

- Captains and Lieutenants auras: this is another thing I'm not happy about. Gunline Marines is distinctly NOT what they're supposed to be. Marines should be the premium close ranged units in the game. The best solution for this though would perhaps be to boost Marines at rapid fire ranges. I'll go back to the Stratagems and take a look at my new ones to boost that.

 

In regards to captains and lieutenants, captains I feel are fine as they are helping guide the aim however I feel lieutenants could be used to encourage close range play using rules similar to the cadre fireblades from Tau, giving the marines an extra shot when in rapid fire range with bolt weapons (maybe even have Heavy Boltguns fire at double pace instead as well but only at 12" or closer to prevent people getting too passive with them).

Would like to add also a stratagem to encourage moving and shooting even with heavy weapons. Something like:

"Marching Fire, 1CP:

use before an infantry unit fires heavy weapons. The unit does not suffer penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons"

 

Also possibly something to add to tactical marines as a default ability, so that they aren't punished for trying to flex themselves on the battlefield. Other units wouldn't have it as it isn't their job to flex into different positions. 

To be honest, I do notice a lack of encouraging players to get aggressive with marines. A lot more passive or reactive stuff really. 

 

To be honest, if those changes were made Imperial Fist Sternguard would be so...ohhh yea...30 shots base...Rhino Primaris buff on them then use bolter drill...that's the good stuff right there...just pour that boltgun fire on the enemy...pour it on!

 

Also, possibly a look at the warlord traits. To be honest the fact that most only deal with the warlord themself feels like a lost chance. Iron Hands trait is really only great if you get buffs going AND are a land raider excelsior and some of the other traits just promote sitting around doing not much (I know its fluffy for imperial fists but why not be something to do with gaining a bonus VS. cover instead of being on the defence!). Would love to see some more unit buffing auras and also some more interesting relics...I suppose you are trying to address it but I just want to put across the idea of making relics that can combo together instead of being just simple stat sticks. Something that enables a certain tactical option or play.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

Would comment that assault centurions need their points amended differently: Due to the fact their siege drills are free this means there is a massive difference still between devastator centurions and assault centurions. Ether up point assault centurions a little from 45 (to account for free siege drills) or put a cost on siege drills like say 10-15 points (they are mega chainfists...can't remember their exact stat-line but I know they hit HARD).

 

I considered that but I'm concerned no one takes Assault Centurions anyway. The added cost of a Land Raider being required doesn't help.

 

What's consensus here?

Well I’m genuinely of the opinion that nothing in the codex should go up in price for their current stats. I’m not saying no increases in conjunction with stat/rules improvements but at the minute nothing should be going up in price.

 

Specifically for Centurions, as you say, no one takes them as it is, increasing the cost would just make that worse.

[Nalim]

- The banner perhaps can't be changed much without it being useless or just plain unrealistic. However, I was thinking of limiting it to the Shooting model can only shoot at targets up to 12" away, to encourage a more dynamic play instead of gunline babysitting.

 

 

For me, the biggest problem with the banner is that it encourages extreme clumping - since all models (not units!) need to be in 6 inch range, which results in an ugly infantry circle. I'd think about changing its area of effect from "models within 6 inch" to "units within 6 inch" and changing the base chance to 5+ (from 4+) and the relic chance to 4+ (from 3+).

[Ishagu]

Yeah, when you have experience with Eldar you'll realise they can achieve the same effects as our auras through the use of psychic powers, and those are cast by cheap and mobile units that don't encourage clumping or being static.

 

I think the codex needs a substantial redesign and certain units require sweeping rule changes. We still have over a dozen unit entries that are completely useless.

 

I do also think however, that a greater focus on Primaris is also key. The line is in greater need of additions of units, rules and strategems.

[Beta galactosidase]

- Captains and Lieutenants auras: this is another thing I'm not happy about. Gunline Marines is distinctly NOT what they're supposed to be. Marines should be the premium close ranged units in the game. The best solution for this though would perhaps be to boost Marines at rapid fire ranges. I'll go back to the Stratagems and take a look at my new ones to boost that.

Bunching around captains could be removed by changing the target of the aura. Instead of friendly units the captain can designate an enemy unit that can be rerolled against by marine unit. That would mean a unit like a storm talon or devastatora could be on the other side of the table from the captain and gain the benefit.

 

There are possibilities for different ranges on the ability.

[Captain Idaho]

I do also think however, that a greater focus on Primaris is also key. The line is in greater need of additions of units, rules and strategems.

I'm not going to advocate this thread for creating new models. I suggest a new thread and maybe even pictures of the new units you want if you want GW to take your idea and run with it.

 

As for Primaris rules and Stratagems... as you can see I've made several changes and new Stratagems that include Primaris units.

 

But I won't serve an agenda of promoting one kind of unit over others, for whatever reason. Classic Marines haven't gone anywhere and most people want rules to support them even if you don't.

[Captain Idaho]

Bunching around captains could be removed by changing the target of the aura. Instead of friendly units the captain can designate an enemy unit that can be rerolled against by marine unit. That would mean a unit like a storm talon or devastatora could be on the other side of the table from the captain and gain the benefit.

There are possibilities for different ranges on the ability.

That's something I like. It acts as a marked for Death thing.

 

On its own it doesn't fix Marines being a substandard gunline but I think many of the other changes in this thread encourage closer ranged play.

 

Like these new Stratagems inspired by conversation elsewhere:

 

New! Purge the Unclean – 1 Command Point: Use when a <Chapter> Tactical squad, Intercessor squad or Terminator squad fires in the Shooting Phase. Each of that unit's Bolt weapons gains +1 shot that turn. For the purpose of determining what constitutes a bolt weapon, all weapons with bolt or bolter in the name are affected by this Stratagem. Note only the bolter on combi weapons are affected by this Stratagem, not the additional weapon element.

 

New! Teleport Assault – 1 Command Point: When a unit of friendly <Chapter> Terminators deploys on the battlefield using Teleport Strike but before placing any models. The unit can be place anywhere on the table as long as no model in the unit is closer than 9-D6” to any enemy models.

 

New! Teleport Flare – 1 Command Point: Use when a unit of friendly <Chapter> Terminators has been set up on the battlefield using Teleport Strike. Enemy units attempting to attack this unit in the next enemy Shooting phase suffer -1 to their hit rolls.

[Schlitzaf]

Obligatory don’t forget Crusader Squads Idaho!

[Captain Idaho]

Oh yes of course ;)

[Ishagu]

I'm not promoting Primaris ahead of regular marines. It's simply an irrefutable fact that the strategems and codex neglect them in general, and as it stands they feel more like a segregated force within the codex. Look at Black Templars - they have no thematic use of Primaris and this is criminal. This is just one example.

They do need serious attention, foremost, because of this.

 

One of the biggest drawbacks of the codex are the unit exclusive and restrictive strategems, and the ones asking for things like 3 vindicators.

 

We need general strategems that are useful for infantry and vehicles across the board, like other armies have.

[Captain Idaho]

Which I've suggested so we're good.

[Panzer]

 

- Captains and Lieutenants auras: this is another thing I'm not happy about. Gunline Marines is distinctly NOT what they're supposed to be. Marines should be the premium close ranged units in the game. The best solution for this though would perhaps be to boost Marines at rapid fire ranges. I'll go back to the Stratagems and take a look at my new ones to boost that.

Bunching around captains could be removed by changing the target of the aura. Instead of friendly units the captain can designate an enemy unit that can be rerolled against by marine unit. That would mean a unit like a storm talon or devastatora could be on the other side of the table from the captain and gain the benefit.

 

There are possibilities for different ranges on the ability.

 

 

So basically T'au Markerlights but better because you don't have to roll to hit and the enemy can't take out your Captain as easily as some Pathfinder. ^^

I mean, yeah it would work more or less. Not as well as you might think since considering line of sight restrictions often force T'au to group up their units similarly to Marines but it would at least be slightly better.

I'm just not sure whether it's such a good idea to give Marines the major benefit of Markerlights without drawback while they already have better BS anyway from an army design perspective.

[Captain Idaho]

Good point.

 

Potentially a fix would be to boost Marines at Rapid Fire range. It encourages people to close the distance and by its very nature it is very likely you won't clump up as much.

[Volt]

Soup lists need fixing. Likely something like you only get Relics and Stratagems of the faction of the Warlord and don't generate CPs for detachments that aren't the Faction of the Warlord.

 

But again, that shouldn't impact a faction. Otherwise Marines will be impossible to balance.

On soup you could fix that with a rule similar to the Custodes. All marine infantry models get a 6+ FNP save because of the Larraman's Organ if the list is battle-forged.

[MARK0SIAN]

Good point.

 

Potentially a fix would be to boost Marines at Rapid Fire range. It encourages people to close the distance and by its very nature it is very likely you won't clump up as much.

It would have to be a really significant boost at that range though, otherwise you’d be putting marines in a bad position against enemies that want to close the range and get into cc.

 

I agree that’s where I want a marine army to be, an excellent close range force as opposed to a gunline, but currently, there’s a lot of armies where the last thing you want your marines to do is get close. In other words, if we are designing that way, I wouldn’t want it to be a case of the marines close to their optimum range, deal a few casualties but then get instantly charged and slaughtered in the next turn.

[Captain Idaho]

The new Stratagems in this topic are a start. Increased Rapid Fire, shooting Bolters into combat (basically doubling attacks for Tactical Marines and giving Intercessors a -1 AP), being able to fire twice and also target characters all encourage the weaker close range specialists like Tacticals to get close and I really think they benefit.

 

What do people think about an Armour based Stratagem? One that ignores -1 modifiers? Maybe it is centralised around a Techmarine with Servo Harness or something and gives him a temporary 6" aura?

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly the Liu suggestion I think is actually great espacially if Liu see a small point reduction. It’ll allow for marines to have two or three small bubbles of 6”. This is espacially true is the Liu suggestions would also work with CM Buffs sense Chapter Masters aren’t cheap or require 3 CP

[Panzer]

_{I could see giving Marines better AP at half range. So Bolter become AP-1 like the Primaris ones, the Primaris ones become AP-2, Plasma becomes AP-4 (rather uninteresting for Hellblaster but those are already good enough anyway) and so on.}

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like that rule. Preferably a full army wide rule but at least a Stratagem.

[Captain Idaho]

Here's an idea or 2 to boost the army and make it more aggressive in objectives taking and stoic in defence:

 

New!Defenders of Humanity: Addendum added – “Units with the <Chapter> special rule within 3” of an objective marker can add +1 to their Leadership value when rolling for Morale tests.

 

New! The Emperor’s Champions: <Chapter> units within 3” of objectives outside their deployment zone receive an additional -1 to the AP of their weapons in both close combat and the Shooting Phase.