Codex Space Marines Amendments

[PeteySödes]

Ooh love the objective based ones your proposing. It’s fluffy and would be pretty fun to play without being restrictive like the auras

[Aarik]

I posted my ideas about stratagems in the new stratagems thread, so apologies if it's repetitive.  But I figured since there are two threads about improving Marines, I would post it here too.

 

What do you think about allowing a unit to shoot after falling back (with a -1 penalty to hit) or charge after falling back for 1 CP each?  I think this fits the fluff of marines being a tactically flexible, maneuverable, and well disciplined fighting force.  I think something helping charges would be good too.  Perhaps also could give the Black Templars' re-roll to charge distances as a stratagem for 1 CP, or add +2 or +3 to the charge roll, or an advance and charge stratagem?

 

I know this could be seen as diluting the uniqueness of the Ultras', White Scars', and Black Templar's chapter tactics, but they would still have the advantage of being able to use their own tactic without having to pay CP for it as a strategem, while also having the other new stratagems available.  This could also be done in conjunction with buffing the chapter traits, so that they are better than their stratagem equivalent (or so that chapters have more to their trait than being effectively able to use their associated stratagem for free, in the case of the Black Templars).  The Ultramarine chapter tactic could have shooting after falling back without the -1 to hit penalty, for example.

 

Also, what do you guys think about intercessors being able to use all the profiles of the different boltgun options they have (rather than having to pick one), and letting them buy chainswords?  I think this would (1) give them a bit more punch that they seem to be lacking (from my limited experience), and (2) also fit with the notion of marine troops being a "tactical" squad, in that this would help give them more flexibility and make them more useful in a variety of roles (longer range, mid-range shooting, and hit harder in close combat).  I think this would also set intercessor squads apart a bit more from hellblaster squads, in that the hellblasters are better at shooting, but the intercessors are a bit more versatile in close combat.

 

I know this doesn't help regular tactical marines (though maybe giving them a 30" heavy 1 stronger shot option and letting them buy chainswords, as well, might help?), and there is some intra-faction politics about primaris vs. regular marines.  But ignoring that, I think this change would make intercessors more useful.

[Captain Idaho]

Although I'd be happy to see Intercessors using their Bolters in any of the 3 ways (and beyond?) I don't think it can happen since it's not ammunition but the actual model represented gun itself that's different.

 

Also I believe there is little appetite for dilution of Chapter Tactics as a Stratagem.

 

There is merit to Black Templars getting a Stratagem, like Tide of adamantium - Crusader squads add 3" to their charge that turn.

[redmapa]

Maybe Im wrong but after a quick view of this thread I keep seeing this idea that Black Templars should get even more ways to get into combat, that may be fine but that doesnt fix the underlying issue that has been made worse with each new codex and that is the question of, what happens after getting into combat? The answer is nothing because the codex does not support assault, hell even in the same codex Raven Guard are more reliable in getting into combat with their stratagem.

 

My point is Templar need teeth, right now assault does nothing and we have no incentive to waddle through the battlefield and getting shot up only to reach combat to deal a small ammount of low threat attacks. There are no stratagems to help combat, there are no buffs to make combat scary, every single Chapter in the codex is just as scary in assault as Black Templars and by that I mean they are not very scary at all.

 

I cant remember who said it here but assault in the codex has 2 purposes, mop up or tie up and for an army thats supposed to be geared for assault that sucks. To an extent this idea also applies to White Scars who also need teeth, they are supposed to be moving forward and thread that thin line of assault and harrasment but they also dont seem to have enough incentives to play aggressively when the codex itself wants you to stick in your deployment and play Imperial Guard lite. 

 

Black Templars dont need yet more ways to get into combat, Rhinos are good enough, rerolling charges is good enough, we need power in close combat and we have needed that for the last 3 editions but GW seems scared of it or worse, unwilling to give it.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree Marines should be dangerous up close but we have powerful close combat attacks in the Codex without even applying these changes we've worked on.

 

Alongside the changes, I think a combat army of Black Templars can work. There are several Stratagems that help Crusaders directly and Terminators getting boosts alongside various points drops etc makes for a more powerful force for all the Chapters within.

[autek mor]

give templars an improved AP on wound rolls on a 6?

[Captain Idaho]

It's a reasonable idea. Zealous strength or something.

[UnkyHamHam]

What if Templars had a Strat that gave a unit's chainsword attacks mortal wounds on the wound roll of 6. It sounds strong, but it really isn't as bad as it sounds. Still requires chainswords over better more reliable weapons.

 

Would really add life into Crusader, Assault, and Bike squads. All Templar specialties. Add some real punch to Vanguards as well.

 

Ive always had it in my mind that Black Templars were something of chainsword experts. Its kind of their thing.

[Schlitzaf]

What we need as BT tbh is things to emphasis 1A Power Weapon models

[Marshal Arthur]

I would say chainswords are more a Blood Angel thing. Obviously Templars use them as well but if we had any defining weapons it would be power swords. If power weapons gave an extra attack again that would help a lot.

[UnkyHamHam]

I would say chainswords are more a Blood Angel thing. Obviously Templars use them as well but if we had any defining weapons it would be power swords. If power weapons gave an extra attack again that would help a lot.

Interesting. I've never thought that. Blood Angels use no more than Codex chapters. Blood Angels have many many things. Jump packs, Flame and Melta weaponry, Dreads, and so on. Never thought they specialized in chainswords tho. Templars literally chain their chainswords to the gauntlets of their basic marines. Plus they are knights. And sci-fi knights need sci-fi swords.

 

Sorry to derail. But I needed to justify my suggestion.

[autek mor]

i don't know if this has been suggested already but what if the stratagem honour the chapter is dropped from 3cp to 2cp?

[Marshal Arthur]

They do use a lot of chainswords but in my mind Blood Angels, especially company, seem perfect for chainswords. Granted they use melta and flamers too, but flamers are more distinctly Salamander weapons (in lore if not in rules), although I suppose the inferno pistols could be a more iconic weapon for Blood Angels. Jet Packs are definitely a big part of any Blood Angel army but usually used in conjunction with chainswords. We Templars love our chainswords but when I think Templar I think of the black sword and using power weapons in place of heavy weapons.

 

And in response to autek mor, honour the chapter is definitely overpriced. 2cp seems much more reasonable. More than anything what we need is some sort of buff to encourage highly mobile and aggressive tactics. Stratagems can help, and ours could certainly use a little more flavor (not necessarily OP stratagems but fun and unique ones that aren't so dependent on niche units and D3 mortal wounds), as well as just a couple unique rules to buff our units (ways to mitigate the heavy weapon penalty, an increase for the damage of bolt weapons and chainswords, etc.).

[Panzer]

Blood Angels really don't use more Chainswords than any other chapter out there. If anything, its Space Wolves who use a lot of Chainswords thanks to their Blood Claws.

[Captain Idaho]

i don't know if this has been suggested already but what if the stratagem honour the chapter is dropped from 3cp to 2cp?

I think you need to read the top post.

[autek mor]

 

i don't know if this has been suggested already but what if the stratagem honour the chapter is dropped from 3cp to 2cp?

I think you need to read the top post.

 

 

thank you, its been a while since i read page one.

[Captain Idaho]

I think feedback has been good here. Mostly consensus and whilst some folk wanted Custodes stats and points drops etc, for the most part we all agreed the areas that needed fixing.

 

So I thank you all.

[Charlo]

On the "Emperor's Champions" stratagem, it's a little too defensive IMO and pretty situational.

 

After a weekend of Maelstrom games it's very rare to get objectives your opponent already hold (e.g. the ones outside of your deployment zone) - especially with the low model count of marines so getting AP in this case seems wasted.

 

How about, you can use it when you target an enemy unit with models within 3" of an objective regardless of location?

 

Represents a sudden overwhelming strike that marines are famous for?

[Ishagu]

Might make it a bit useful.

[Ishagu]

I still think all existing strats should be scrapped and new ones created in their place, and hopefully this will happen.

[Panzer]

On the "Emperor's Champions" stratagem, it's a little too defensive IMO and pretty situational.

 

After a weekend of Maelstrom games it's very rare to get objectives your opponent already hold (e.g. the ones outside of your deployment zone) - especially with the low model count of marines so getting AP in this case seems wasted.

 

How about, you can use it when you target an enemy unit with models within 3" of an objective regardless of location?

 

Represents a sudden overwhelming strike that marines are famous for?

 

I honestly think all Stratagems should be situational for every army ... but reality is different, so yeah agreed. ^^

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I still think all existing strats should be scrapped and new ones created in their place, and hopefully this will happen.

That's crazy talk. A bunch of what we have already is fine. A bunch are equally worthless or not worth their cost, sure, but wiping the slate clean is a terrible idea.

[Ishagu]

Fortune favours the bold.

 

We need a leap, not a small hop.

[Panzer]

Fortune favours the bold.

 

We need a leap, not a small hop.

 

As Captain Idaho already said tho, that's not the intend for this thread in particular.

[Captain Idaho]

Fortune favours the bold.

We need a leap, not a small hop.

 

 

As I've said, the list of changes are, in my view, more measured and likely to be considered by GW. In addition, taken all together they make Codex Space Marines quite powerful. Bear in mind the changes include things from this thread I haven't updated the top post with yet.

 

If you think the complete overhaul is needed then I strongly suggest making a thread that presents your position and ideas and see how it goes.

 

On the "Emperor's Champions" stratagem, it's a little too defensive IMO and pretty situational.

 

After a weekend of Maelstrom games it's very rare to get objectives your opponent already hold (e.g. the ones outside of your deployment zone) - especially with the low model count of marines so getting AP in this case seems wasted.

 

How about, you can use it when you target an enemy unit with models within 3" of an objective regardless of location?

 

Represents a sudden overwhelming strike that marines are famous for?

My problem with this is it doesn't encourage dynamic movement or attacking play. Remember; all the changes in this thread combine with things like Champions of Humanity.

 

Besides, the last thing I want to do is encourage gun line Space Marines.