Potential allies for Knights

[Karhedron]

Whilst Knights can function as a stand-alone army, the shortage of CPs and ObjSec units mean that many players will run a Battalion of allied Imperial forces to help plug the gaps in a pure-Knight list. With this in mind, I thought I would start a discussion of the Pros and Cons of the various factions and what they can offer. I have centered the analysis around cheap Battalions as I suspect these will be the most popular choice for the +5CPs they bring.

I am going to stick to small detachments as I view the other forces as supporting the Knights. By the time you get much above 500 or 600 points, you are talking more of a mixed army rather than just forces to support the big toys.

Imperial Guard (Astra Milithingumy)

Probably the most popular choice. A bare-bone Guard Battalion can be had for around 180 points and also unlocks the Miner Warlord (Grand Strategist + Kurov's Aquila). I suspect that this is exactly how many people will choose to run their Guard although I can see mileage in adding some heavy weapons to the infantry squads so they can contribute more at range and maybe a Manticore or two for indirect fire. The infantry make good objective campers while the Warlord hides somewhere safe and recycles CPs.

The only real downside I can see to Guard is that adding squishy infantry to your towering Knight forces gives your opponent an easy target for any anti-infantry weapons.

Tempestus Scions
Slightly more expensive than Guard but still cheap with a bare-bones battalion costing only 230 points and also unlocking the Miner Warlord. While you only get half as many bodies for objective camping the ability to deploy using "Aerial Drop" is really useful. If you keep the squads cheap, you can hold them back until Turn 3 when the Knights have hopefully cleared a lot of the enemy and then drop them on unguarded objectives where they will not have to weather so much fire. Alternatively, pop a couple of plasma guns on each squad and use them to hunt units that have evaded your Knights.

Although slightly more durable than Guard, they only have half as many wounds for slightly more points if you are looking for pure objective campers, regular IG are probably a better bet.

Space marines
Going up in price, a Battalion of Marines starts at 285 for 3xScout squads, 315 for 3 Tactical squads or 390 for 3xIntercessor squads. Unlike IG, you don't get a Miner option but you do get significantly better infantry. For my money, the best option here is 3 Intercessor squads with the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic. -1 to Hit on 2W infantry makes them quite resilient, particularly if you can get them into cover. You opponent will find these guys hard to shift without dedicated firepower. This works quite well in a Knight army as the kind of weapons you need to efficiently delete Primaris Marines tend to be the same weapons that threaten Knights. If you opponent points his plasma guns etc at the Marines, that is significant firepower diverted away from your Knights. If he ignores the Marines, you can nab objectives and hang on to them. Raven Guard are also the best chapter to make use of Boltstorm Aggressors who are one of the game's premiere chaff-clearing units. If you have the points for some of these guys, they can cut through screens with ease to clear a path for your Knights.

The downside is price. A Primaris Battalion costs more than twice the price of an IG Battalion and does not give you extra CP shenanigans. Still, I feel a small Battalion of Marines has a lot to offer Knights.

Grey Knights and Custodes
I think that these armies are too expensive and too specialised to really support Knights. While they do bring some useful abilities, I think you need to spend so many points on a Battalion that you are looking at a combined army rather than a supporting element by the time you get to that stage.

AdMech and Sisters
I don't have much experience with these armies so I will leave others to comment. Sisters are hampered somewhat by the currently available range but AdMech have obvious synergy and fluff links to Knights.

Thoughts, comments suggestions?

[Sanul]

Sisters are great too, I like them a lot. A bare-bone battalion costs 225 points, so its also really cheap. Of course you don't get any "Miner option", but you have other nice options (heavy or storm bolters) for the camper girls. And of course you get Celestine on board very easily!

[Tyriks]

AdMech are fine, not too much more than Guard. Lacks much real synergy though if you're just keeping it barebones. An enginseer warlord could heal a whopping 2 wounds on a Knight in a turn but that's not worth losing a warlord trait on a knight, I think. You'd be spending all the CP you get just getting traits back...

 

I do think custodes deserve a bit more of a shout. Those jetbikes could add a lot, I think. Infantry custodes not as much, though.

[Charlo]

Ad Mech minimum Batallions are pretty good, 199pts gets you 2 Enginseers, 15 Rangers and 5CP.

 

Not as many infantry as AM, but, your Enginseers can each repair an individual knights for a single wound a turn. For 1CP this is boosted to 2 Wounds, with Necromechanic warlord trait this is boosted to 2 or 4 Wounds. Keep that Dominus running!

 

The Rangers are solid infantry with BS3+, 4+/6++ save (3+/5++ with cover from Canticles of the Omnissiah) and the guns are 30" Rapid Fire S4 AP-, becoming AP-1 on a 6 to wound.

 

In terms of Forge World Dogma it's fairly open too, with all of them having use. If you invest in more Ad Mech unis you can't go wrong with Lucius or Stygies for getting close (but it costs CP!) but if you are just sticking to Rangers/ Vanguard then I really like Metallica - letting you advance and fire Assault Weapons with no penalty (and making your Rapid Fire weapons into Assault when you advance) so Rangers have a very long reach and Vanguard are extremely mobile and versatile.

[Karhedron]

I do think custodes deserve a bit more of a shout. Those jetbikes could add a lot, I think. Infantry custodes not as much, though.

 

Custodes jetbikes are deservedly popular but I am not convinced they bring a lot to Knights. They excel at taking out high value targets and are also good at tackling flyers but neither targets are ones Knights really have a problem with. All Custodes get ObjSec by default but these are expensive models and you don't really want them camping on Objectives. Admittedly their high mobility and Objsec would make them good in Maelstrom games or for last-turn objectives dashes.

 

Were you think regular jetbikes or biker Captains? Bikers don't help with a Battalion although Biker Captains fulfil the manadtory 2 HQs. You still need 3 Troops though. A triple Biker Captain Supreme Command Detachment is really nasty but only nets +1CP so does not help Knights with their CP supply much. You could get 2 Guard Battalions for +10CPs for those points.

[Spiky Norman]

Space marines

Going up in price, a Battalion of Marines starts at 285 for 3xScout squads, 315 for 3 Tactical squads or 390 for 3xIntercessor squads. Unlike IG, you don't get a Miner option but you do get significantly better infantry. For my money, the best option here is 3 Intercessor squads with the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic. -1 to Hit on 2W infantry makes them quite resilient, particularly if you can get them into cover. You opponent will find these guys hard to shift without dedicated firepower. This works quite well in a Knight army as the kind of weapons you need to efficiently delete Primaris Marines tend to be the same weapons that threaten Knights. If you opponent points his plasma guns etc at the Marines, that is significant firepower diverted away from your Knights. If he ignores the Marines, you can nab objectives and hang on to them. Raven Guard are also the best chapter to make use of Boltstorm Aggressors who are one of the game's premiere chaff-clearing units. If you have the points for some of these guys, they can cut through screens with ease to clear a path for your Knights.

 

The downside is price. A Primaris Battalion costs more than twice the price of an IG Battalion and does not give you extra CP shenanigans. Still, I feel a small Battalion of Marines has a lot to offer Knights.

If you are willing to forego the Raven Guard chapter tactic, and pick a Marine HQ as your warlord, you can take the Ultramarines Warlord Trait that gives you CPs back on a 5+ whilst your Warlord is alive.

The wording is different than for the AM one, where it says you Warlord has to be on the table, so I don't know if Ultramarines trait would allow you to refund on the ones used before the battle.

[Bluflash]

I believe that was cleaned up in the Big FAQ. They all require you to have the model on the table now.

[solarisqc]

I believe that was cleaned up in the Big FAQ. They all require you to have the model on the table now.

Dark Angel brilliant strategist don't specify the warlord need to be on the battlefield. ''In addition, if your army is Battle-forged, roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem; on a 5+ you gain 1 Command Point''

 

No change in the FAQ so a way to get back the CP use before the battle.

 

Azreal also give +1 command point if he is the warlord. The lion helm will also help any troop with him to stay alive against mid strengh high ap (like plasma) that are not optimal vs knight but real good vs infantry.

[Spiky Norman]

I believe that was cleaned up in the Big FAQ. They all require you to have the model on the table now.

Ahh, found it on page 2 of the Codex: Space Marine FAQ:

 

Adept of the Codex

Change the rules text to read:

‘Whilst your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each

time you spend a Command Point to use a Stratagem;

on a 5+ that CP is immediately refunded.

[sneakybamsen]

 

I believe that was cleaned up in the Big FAQ. They all require you to have the model on the table now.

Dark Angel brilliant strategist don't specify the warlord need to be on the battlefield. ''In addition, if your army is Battle-forged, roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem; on a 5+ you gain 1 Command Point''

 

No change in the FAQ so a way to get back the CP use before the battle.

 

Azreal also give +1 command point if he is the warlord. The lion helm will also help any troop with him to stay alive against mid strengh high ap (like plasma) that are not optimal vs knight but real good vs infantry.

 

 

Yes, Azrael does have his perks, but if you want relics and traits on your knights, I'd say you're better off not bringing Azrael, and instead have 1 of your knights be your warlord. I've been contemplating it myself, and unless you want a warlord in hiding with only 1 knight getting a trait and relic, I don't think Azrael as warlord is a solid choice. For him to be effective, you'd give a relic to another DA character, and you need more than a few primaris to boost with his auras. Possible configuration would be devastator squad with plasma cannons (hellblasters will be too expensive in a lance list at 2000 points, unless you're running 3 cheap gallants). Still, you need to be rather lucky with the 5+ to get a CP back on the stratagems, as a lot of knight stratagems are somewhat pricey.

[facmanpob]

Yes, Azrael does have his perks, but if you want relics and traits on your knights, I'd say you're better off not bringing Azrael, and instead have 1 of your knights be your warlord. I've been contemplating it myself, and unless you want a warlord in hiding with only 1 knight getting a trait and relic, I don't think Azrael as warlord is a solid choice. For him to be effective, you'd give a relic to another DA character, and you need more than a few primaris to boost with his auras. Possible configuration would be devastator squad with plasma cannons (hellblasters will be too expensive in a lance list at 2000 points, unless you're running 3 cheap gallants). Still, you need to be rather lucky with the 5+ to get a CP back on the stratagems, as a lot of knight stratagems are somewhat pricey.

I'm trying to work out a DA battalion that has a Lieutenant as Warlord with Brilliant Strategist and a Bike Librarian with Eye of the Unseen. If I can get the Libby close to an enemy character that my Gallant is going to charge then I can force the enemy character to fight last, probably allowing the Gallant to mulch him. Spending 2CP pre-battle (for which I would get 2 x 5+ rolls to get each CP back) would then get me a Warlord trait and heirloom on the Gallant, leaving me with a reasonable amount of CP for the battle itself. It may not be practical, but I'll have to give it a go before ruling it out.

[Redtoof]

I’d consider 2 enginseer and 15 Vanguard as a decent option if I were playing a pure-ish Knight army. Pretty cheap and Vanguard can put out a lot of shots for chaff clearing which I believe is generally an issue with Knights? Rangers are slightly cheaper and a better option if you want to castle up in a corner with them due to range. You could splurge a bit and get a Tech Priest Dominus for the reroll 1s but it’s probably not worth it.

 

Skitarii are relatively tough to shift if they can get in cover or utilise Shroudpsalm. Might be worth taking slightly larger units to take advantage of their objective securing ability. Generally I’d avoid the special weapons for this but arc rifles a lovely Andrew cheap if you have some spare points kicking around and if you want to go for the ranger castle you could consider a few of the arquebus for character sniping potential, but they are pretty expensive. I guess with Knights though you will either have no points spare, or loads, in which case you might as well kit out your ‘cheap’ Battalion a bit.

[Charlo]

Unless you are SUPER strapped for points (like, me limited to 1K and am bringing an Ad Mech Battalion purely for some CP) it's always a good idea to push the units a bit with more members and upgrades to make them useful.

 

I totally forgot that the Dominus grants re-rolls to 1...! If you have the points getting him and a unit of Plasma Vanguard is really good and let's you overcharge a bit safer!

[Redtoof]

The Dominus is one of my favourite minis, he does a lot to help an ad mech army, is tough with a 2+ save and self repairing, and is decent in melee and a bit of bonus firepower. He’s the kind of unit that will usually do something good, but will very rarely win you the game or ‘make his points back’ in killed enemies. In a cheap allied Battalion he’s a luxury but in an admech army he’s a must take IMO. (Unless you have Cawl, obviously.)

[Vel'Cona]

I feel like the de facto for Knight players will be the static IG Battalion of Company Commander, Primaris Psyker, and 3 Infantry Squads.  This comes out to <200 points (and equipping the Infantry Squads shouldn't take up more than 10-25 points) leaving plenty of space for your Knights.  You also get a pile of cheap bodies to grab objectives with a decent bit of dakka (x2 FRFSRF on the Commander) and a modicum of Psychic phase defense/access to Smite.  Regimental Doctrines add another layer of usefulness, and if you have a handful of points to spend after all is said and done it's an easy matter to toss in a Heavy Weapon Squad with Mortars or the like for even more mass of fire, if needed.

 

I like AdMech too and it makes sense if you're going Questor Mechanicus, but I feel like the Enginseer just doesn't offer enough utility for his points and the Dominus will take a big cut from your Knight's allocation.  Skitarii are certainly better than Infantry Squads but it comes at a premium cost, though access to Canticles (possibly on your Knights if you have CP to spare) could be extremely useful.

[Charlo]

Sadly Canticles on Knights is totally borked.

 

To benefit from Canticles of the Omnissiah, the entire detachment must have the rule. If you use Knight of the Cog Strat to give a single Knight the Canticles rule and he's part of a Knight Lance (SHD) then you gain ZERO benefit, as the rest of his detachment doesn't have it.

 

The Enginseer is just a little too expensive really, but giving a shooty Knight 6 extra wounds (over the game) for 47 points (more if you invest a Warlord Trait/ CP/ Relics) is an okay-ish deal.

 

It cannot be questioned that the Guard offers more bang for your buck, but that particular Relic/ Warlord trait combo is just so broken and not very sporting IMO.

[sneakybamsen]

 

Yes, Azrael does have his perks, but if you want relics and traits on your knights, I'd say you're better off not bringing Azrael, and instead have 1 of your knights be your warlord. I've been contemplating it myself, and unless you want a warlord in hiding with only 1 knight getting a trait and relic, I don't think Azrael as warlord is a solid choice. For him to be effective, you'd give a relic to another DA character, and you need more than a few primaris to boost with his auras. Possible configuration would be devastator squad with plasma cannons (hellblasters will be too expensive in a lance list at 2000 points, unless you're running 3 cheap gallants). Still, you need to be rather lucky with the 5+ to get a CP back on the stratagems, as a lot of knight stratagems are somewhat pricey.

I'm trying to work out a DA battalion that has a Lieutenant as Warlord with Brilliant Strategist and a Bike Librarian with Eye of the Unseen. If I can get the Libby close to an enemy character that my Gallant is going to charge then I can force the enemy character to fight last, probably allowing the Gallant to mulch him. Spending 2CP pre-battle (for which I would get 2 x 5+ rolls to get each CP back) would then get me a Warlord trait and heirloom on the Gallant, leaving me with a reasonable amount of CP for the battle itself. It may not be practical, but I'll have to give it a go before ruling it out.

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was FAQ'ed so that we couldn't roll to get back CP used prebattle.

[Tyriks]

The problem with using Enginseers to repair is that your opponent is unlikely to shoot your knight with a few weapons and then move on. They're gonna focus one knight until it dies, and that enginseer isn't sturdy enough to survive an explosion or fast enough to get to a second knight to heal a lot of the time (Solar Flare helps but you lose a potential Knight relic for it). So often you'll heal one or two wounds, not all 6. Not every game, obviously, but a fair amount of the time. And then some armies will have enough snipers to just kill him easily. He could potentially make a difference but it requires a bit too much luck for me.

[Vel'Cona]

The problem with using Enginseers to repair is that your opponent is unlikely to shoot your knight with a few weapons and then move on.

 

Agreed.  This is why I don't like the healing Relic for Questor Mechanicus, either.  Healing abilities in general require a lot of cooperation and/or bad luck for the opponent, and assuming said opponent isn't a muppet they're going to focus fire down one Knight at a time.  This is why it's better to just have a good save in the first place to give your Knight the best chance of outlasting the opponent's focus fire.

 

 

Sadly Canticles on Knights is totally borked.

 

I hadn't realized this.  So IG for days, then :P  It's such a shame really because I like the idea of Questor Mechanicus with a maniple of supporting Skitarii, but this just seems roughly inferior mostly in that AdMech (for some strange reason) have an extremely limited HQ slot.  The Skitarii I make function in some way, but 2 Techpriest Enginseers are mostly tax whereas IG HQ choices offer tons of benefits for their bargain price tag.

[facmanpob]

 

 

Yes, Azrael does have his perks, but if you want relics and traits on your knights, I'd say you're better off not bringing Azrael, and instead have 1 of your knights be your warlord. I've been contemplating it myself, and unless you want a warlord in hiding with only 1 knight getting a trait and relic, I don't think Azrael as warlord is a solid choice. For him to be effective, you'd give a relic to another DA character, and you need more than a few primaris to boost with his auras. Possible configuration would be devastator squad with plasma cannons (hellblasters will be too expensive in a lance list at 2000 points, unless you're running 3 cheap gallants). Still, you need to be rather lucky with the 5+ to get a CP back on the stratagems, as a lot of knight stratagems are somewhat pricey.

I'm trying to work out a DA battalion that has a Lieutenant as Warlord with Brilliant Strategist and a Bike Librarian with Eye of the Unseen. If I can get the Libby close to an enemy character that my Gallant is going to charge then I can force the enemy character to fight last, probably allowing the Gallant to mulch him. Spending 2CP pre-battle (for which I would get 2 x 5+ rolls to get each CP back) would then get me a Warlord trait and heirloom on the Gallant, leaving me with a reasonable amount of CP for the battle itself. It may not be practical, but I'll have to give it a go before ruling it out.

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was FAQ'ed so that we couldn't roll to get back CP used prebattle.

 

If you can point me to the FAQ entry that says this I would be grateful, as I've just trawled through the Codex FAQ, BRB FAQ, Chapter Approved FAQ, Big FAQ and Designer's Commentary and can't find anything. The CP section of the Brilliant Strategist trait doesn't mention anything about the Warlord being on the battlefield, or during play, or anything like that, unlike the Codex Space Marines variant of the trait, which has been FAQed.

 

As an aside, they really need to do something about how they collate FAQs...

 

(Edited to improve the grammar!)

[Karhedron]

Just had another idea for an ally. Guilliman in a lone SH-Aux detachment. He nets you 3CPs and can rival a Knight in CC, plus he is hard to target.

 

To bad he doesn't give the Knights rerolls.

[Tyriks]

Just had another idea for an ally. Guilliman in a lone SH-Aux detachment. He nets you 3CPs and can rival a Knight in CC, plus he is hard to target.To bad he doesn't give the Knights rerolls.

Wouldn't he give rerolls of 1 to hit? They are Imperium units.

[Charlo]

I suppose you could model a particularly ridiculous tech priest or the like?

[WriterMonkey]

I'm considering a Primaris/Scout battalion for my knight allies, for a few reasons. Firstly, and least importantly, I've got them lying around. Secondly, I think they're good backfield objective holders. They've got a chance to actually hold said objectives against the kind of thing you often find messing about in your back field. Thirdly, the points work out pretty well. A battalion of:

• Primaris Librarian 
• Primaris Lieutenant 
• 2x 5 man Intercessor Squad
• 5 man Scout Squad

works out at just north of 400 points, which leaves you plenty of space to run a Dominus class Knight and a couple of Questoris class, with a few points left over as well. This gives us Scouts, and everyone knows what a fantastic screen they are, it gives us some psychic defence and offence, and a reasonably tough set of bodies to sit on objectives. 

 

With the last few points you can try and squeeze in an Armiger, if you don't take carapace weapons on your other Knights, or you can take what I'm going to be trying out, a unit of Inceptors. There are a few problems Knights can have that can be solved by 18 heavy bolter shots being dropped where you want them when you want them. Heavy Weapons teams/Devastators can be a threat, but Inceptors can handle them nicely. 18 heavy bolter shots can chew up screens pretty well. They can tie up a tank in assault for a turn giving you time to blow up its buddies before moving onto it. I don't know if they'll live up to my hopes, but they're worth trying out at least. Knights lack back field harassment, and that's what Inceptors are really good at. 

[Karhedron]

That looks a nice solid SM Battalion to support your Knights. I would probably run them as Raven Guard but other Chapters might have their merits. I do rather like Inceptors too.

 

If you find yourself just short of points for the Inceptors/Armiger, you could downgrade the characters from Primaris to regular Marines. You are taking them mainly for their buffs so the extra wound from being Primaris doesn't make a difference too much of the time.