Reasons for Guilliman's unpopularity (in Universe)

[DogWelder]

Recently I've been reflecting on Guilliman's relative unpopularity among his brothers and his father in the Horus Heresy and Primarch books. While his brothers may certainly admire his achievements and his Legion's strength, they don't ever seem to warm to him. The only ones who sort of act friendly are Vulkan and Sanguinius and well they get along with everyone. The Emperor himself doesn't seem to care too much for Guilliman either. Again, he's proud of his achievements and approves of what he's done with Ultramar as well as the staggering number of worlds he brought back into the Imperium but he never shows any of the camaraderie he showed with Russ or Sanguinius.

 

Personally I've always thought that Guilliman was a man out of fit the setting (that's also why he's my favorite primarch). People often say the Tau Empire seems odd in the 40k setting and I see a lot of similar themes with Guilliman. He's loyal but that loyalty is towards his vision of human civilization rather than the Emperor himself. He wants to essentially create a secular, futuristic society predicated on the idea of progress and meritocracy like Ultramar.

 

Unlike many of the Primarchs, he doesn't see himself or his Legion as simply a tool for war but something much, much greater. In his mind, the Ultramarines are meant to be more than just warriors. They are educated statesmen that, while forming a professional military force when needed, have an invaluable role in peacetime as well. They are meant to build and administer empires and societies. To guide humanity into its next golden age. I can understand why this would be off-putting to Primarchs like the Lion or Ferrus.

 

Even when compared to the more visionary primarchs like Lorgar or Magnus, his version of humanity is one that of a society that is dedicated to science and logic not religion or esoteric arts like sorcery that has no reason to it. He doesn't want to change humanity itself by transcending it to a psyker-race or dedicating it to worshipping a God. Now he's definitely an advocate of transhuman rule (such as in Ultramar) by Space Marines but thinks common humanity can just be left like it is.

 

Finally we get to his ideological conflict with the Emperor. While their ideals may look similar on the surface I find they differ quite a lot in execution. Guilliman wants to have an unchanged humanity ruled over by his Space Marine governors and Tetrarchs all loyal to the vision of science, meritocracy, secularism etc. Thus vastly decreasing the corruption or radicalism that human governments fall prey to and creating a society that would always search for the most efficient solutions to their problems unhindered by any ideology.

 

However, the Emperor wants to humanity to change completely and become a psychic race that will never again be bothered by material concerns again. To him, Guilliman's vision is simply a repeat of DAOT humanity and would simply make the same mistakes again. His attitudes remind the Emperor of the DAOT human empire that dedicated itself to science and progress; ultimately causing their own downfall because they never fixed the flaws inherent in humans themselves or gave themselves any limits. In fact, Ultramar being a former DAOT outpost could explain Guilliman getting these ideas.

 

From a recent Reddit post I made

 

 

[karden00]

Perhaps The Big E didn’t show comradery towards Bobby G the way he did to Russ and Sanguinius because unlike those latter two, the former did not need it?

[Lucerne]

As Fulgrim pointed out in his novel, he's arrogant, blinkered, and Ultramar-centric- basically, a secessionist waiting to happen and everyone can see it- and actively alienated his more talented brothers while shamelessly stealing their ideas for his own. Basically, a shameless and grasping hick with the ego of a warlord who basically sat out the Great Crusade while other Legions actually did the footwork.

[Azekai]

Calling Guilliman a hick is absurd. A better analogue would be Caesar, a controversial but organizational genius who is willing to accrue whatever power necessary to meet his goals...

 

As noted by OP, what Guilliman wants is a slightly more ‘enlightened’ status quo, and there are plenty of other conflicting visions for the fate of the Imperium and humanity.

[Lucerne]

Calling Guilliman a hick is absurd. A better analogue would be Caesar, a controversial but organizational genius who is willing to accrue whatever power necessary to meet his goals...

 

As noted by OP, what Guilliman wants is a slightly more ‘enlightened’ status quo, and there are plenty of other conflicting visions for the fate of the Imperium and humanity.

Guilliman's canonically incapable of seeing anything beyond the backwater of Ultramar, culturally.

 

Guilliman's decidedly not a genius. He's at best a plagiarist of actual geniuses and self-aggrandizing petty warlord who unlike even the likes of Mortarion never put the Crusade above his own toy empire.

 

What Guilliman wants and always wanted was an Imperium of mindless toy soldiers with no one around to so much as contradict him, and he had no qualms about kinslaying to achieve that in the Scouring.

[Marshal Rohr]

Guilliman was popular. Ultramarines have the second highest number of Battle Brothers allies after the Salamanders, dont they?

[Lucerne]

Guilliman was popular. Ultramarines have the second highest number of Battle Brothers allies after the Salamanders, dont they?

Gameplay catering to Ultramarine players seems like it's inherently divorced from lore to an extent- and that Ultramarines were welcomed as cannon fodder doesn't necessarily mean that their Primarch was approved of.

 

Also, Ferrus can apparently be added to the list of people who right saw through Guilliman if spoilers from his novel are to be believed.

[Jackalwolf]

Never been a fan of him but saying he's not a genius is massively naive:

 

1. All primarchs are geniuses

2. Even amongst them, few are superior to him as tacticians (Lion, Horus)

3. None is superior to him as a statesman other than Horus

 

He's easy to hate. He's the efficient kid who goes on his way like an ant without making a fuss and so consistent you assume his exceptionality as norm.

 

I'm nothing like him, he's not my primarch but in real life I've learnt to have an immense respect for people like that. They might not have the natural charisma or gravitas others have but damn you notice it when they're not there.

[Cruor Vault]

 

Calling Guilliman a hick is absurd. A better analogue would be Caesar, a controversial but organizational genius who is willing to accrue whatever power necessary to meet his goals...

 

As noted by OP, what Guilliman wants is a slightly more ‘enlightened’ status quo, and there are plenty of other conflicting visions for the fate of the Imperium and humanity.

Guilliman's canonically incapable of seeing anything beyond the backwater of Ultramar, culturally.

 

Guilliman's decidedly not a genius. He's at best a plagiarist of actual geniuses and self-aggrandizing petty warlord who unlike even the likes of Mortarion never put the Crusade above his own toy empire.

 

What Guilliman wants and always wanted was an Imperium of mindless toy soldiers with no one around to so much as contradict him, and he had no qualms about kinslaying to achieve that in the Scouring.

 

 

Guilliman's genius wasn't originality, it was his ability to see the potential that comes from combining other ideas together. 

 

He had a vision of how humanity could work together and took all the best things he encountered during his travels and from his knowledge to make the most secure and peaceful subsector of the galaxy.

 

He fervently believed that humanity could be trusted to rule itself if given the proper examples to follow.  He hoped that once he transferred power back to basic humans the would utilize his teachings to keep the Imperium safe.  That's a large part of why he is so sickened by what he sees when he travels the Imperium after his resurection.

[Lucerne]

 

 

Calling Guilliman a hick is absurd. A better analogue would be Caesar, a controversial but organizational genius who is willing to accrue whatever power necessary to meet his goals...

 

As noted by OP, what Guilliman wants is a slightly more ‘enlightened’ status quo, and there are plenty of other conflicting visions for the fate of the Imperium and humanity.

Guilliman's canonically incapable of seeing anything beyond the backwater of Ultramar, culturally.

 

Guilliman's decidedly not a genius. He's at best a plagiarist of actual geniuses and self-aggrandizing petty warlord who unlike even the likes of Mortarion never put the Crusade above his own toy empire.

 

What Guilliman wants and always wanted was an Imperium of mindless toy soldiers with no one around to so much as contradict him, and he had no qualms about kinslaying to achieve that in the Scouring.

 

 

Guilliman's genius wasn't originality, it was his ability to see the potential that comes from combining other ideas together. 

 

He had a vision of how humanity could work together and took all the best things he encountered during his travels and from his knowledge to make the most secure and peaceful subsector of the galaxy.

 

He fervently believed that humanity could be trusted to rule itself if given the proper examples to follow.  He hoped that once he transferred power back to basic humans the would utilize his teachings to keep the Imperium safe.  That's a large part of why he is so sickened by what he sees when he travels the Imperium after his resurection.

 

So his superpower was plagiarism.

 

He had a vision of how he could make every other planet into Ultramar and rule over his own stagnating empire. And he seized the chance to do that after the Heresy.

 

Ah, yes "transferred power back"- by seizing Terra in a palace coup, driving Dorn to suicide, and destroying every loyalist legion while keeping his own powerbase intact with the Ultramarines as a Legion in all but name.

 

He knowingly let Sanguinus go to die instead of even pretending to care, then killed his dead brother's Legion after the Siege of Terra.

[Brofist]

Calling Guilliman a hick is absurd. A better analogue would be Caesar, a controversial but organizational genius who is willing to accrue whatever power necessary to meet his goals...

 

As noted by OP, what Guilliman wants is a slightly more ‘enlightened’ status quo, and there are plenty of other conflicting visions for the fate of the Imperium and humanity.

Dude dressed flamboyantly and once even as a lady so he could go hook up with a married woman during a ceremony. Young Caesar is way more like Fulgrim.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t think Ung is gonna change his position with some reasonable discourse guys.

[justicarius6]

Indeed, the guy has some seriously warped (pun intended) views when it comes to G Money and the Blues, all backed up by his twisting of some ancient articles that aren't even canon in their original form.

 

Guilliman wasn't popular because he got it done but without the aggrandisement of Horus, nor the majesty of Sanguinius. He's the emperor's vision made manifest, flaws included, and it's all done without the glory seeking that most of his brothers revel in, and this alienates him from them.

[Lucerne]

Indeed, the guy has some seriously warped (pun intended) views when it comes to G Money and the Blues, all backed up by his twisting of some ancient articles that aren't even canon in their original form.

 

Guilliman wasn't popular because he got it done but without the aggrandisement of Horus, nor the majesty of Sanguinius. He's the emperor's vision made manifest, flaws included, and it's all done without the glory seeking that most of his brothers revel in, and this alienates him from them.

 

Your canon illiteracy really isn't my problem- amusingly, you're actively ignoring everything in the most recent Heresy novels to make that claim that it's only "ancient" articles that repeatedly get referenced in more recent materials that find Guilliman to be a disloyal and disliked bungler- and Guilliman's at best a flawed shard of the Emperor's design, like his other brothers, and with much less nobility or justification than most. As for "without glory seeking", squatting on Ultramar and putting it above anything and everything is at best parochialism and at worst knowingly egoistical, disloyal and selfish.

 

Guilliman is a blinkered, petty warlord without even Lorgar's excuses- arguably, Lorgar was making more of an effort to create Imperial worlds in his own way, rather than Guilliman's pocket empire building- who was handed victory on a silver platter and promptly used it to preen and promote his own self-aggrandizement, actively adding to the problems the Imperium faced in the process due to his disregard for anything beyond "Ultramar is the best way to run the Imperium". Everyone from Alpharius to Ferrus (as of new lore) to Lorgar hated his guts, and with good cause.

[kombatwombat]

I certainly wouldn’t say Guilliman is the embodiment of the Emperor’s vision. He places too much emphasis on Ultramar being ruled by Astartes and himself. The Emperor’s ultimate vision for both the Primarchs and the Space Marines was obsolescence; he never planned for a humanity ruled by superhumans, but instead a humanity governing itself. He also realised that while humanity could govern itself, it couldn’t rule itself - he says in Master of Mankind that’s why he rose to power and conquered the stars, because humanity needs a ruler freed of the flaws inherent in humanity, which the Astartes share.

[Dagoth Ur]

Your canon illiteracy really isn't my problem-

 

The irony is so palpable, I could cut myself on it.

 

you're actively ignoring everything in the most recent Heresy novels to make that claim that it's only "ancient" articles that repeatedly get referenced in more recent materials that find Guilliman to be a disloyal and disliked bungler-

Citation required for the parts emphasized by me. Guillaume creates Imperius Secundus, true. The motivation, much like the self-titular novel explains from Guillaume's point of view, is to continue the legacy of the Imperium under the assumption that Terra has fallen. Guillaume has no definitive proof of Terra surviving or falling, thus he goes for what we call a "contingency plan". At no point does Guillaume's introspection throughout the whole IS arc show us that he plans to seize Imperium Secundus all for himself and actually secede from the Imperium proper.

He does assume, and rightfully so as anyone with two braincells to rub together would do, that some would see precisely such a powergrab behind his actions and slander him. As such he installs the ruling trifecta as we know it. The moment he learns of the Imperium surviving, he is shamed of his actions and terrified at the prospect of being seen as a traitor (Specifically shown in Angels of Caliban/Ruinstorm).

Also, not all primarchs have shown specific dislike for him. I'd be interested if you could examples for all primarchs holding such long grudges against him; specifically Sanguinius, the Khan, Ferrus and Dorn would interest me.

Which more recent materials show him as such a, as you put it, bungler?

I'd also like to differentiate in saying that what I am looking for is quotations and citations that show that he is disloyal and universally disliked, not that he is made out to be disloyal by others. After all, I could call you a pink flying elephant with teal polka dots, that doesn't make you one though.

with much less nobility or justification than most.

With much less nobility than Perturabo, Angron, Curze, Mortarion, Leman, Alpharius, Omegon and Ferrus? Hardly.

As for "without glory seeking", squatting on Ultramar and putting it above anything and everything is at best parochialism and at worst knowingly egoistical, disloyal and selfish.

Selfish and egoistical, sure. Guillaume is limited by his own cultural superiority complex, a quintessentially Roman aspect of his character. Disloyal in what way though? After all, the model works for the 500 worlds of Ultramar. That is not an insignificant statistic to go off. It is foolish to assume that it'd work for each and every world, but it is not unimaginable that there is a certain merit to how Ultramar is run in-universe.

Guilliman is a blinkered, petty warlord without even Lorgar's excuses- Lorgar was making more of an effort to create Imperial worlds in his own way,

Citation required. Your logic can be applied to Lorgar too. He was trying to apply one model religion through cultural destruction and reconstruction. Why is establishing model theocracies better than what Guillaume did? If anything, both are just as idiotic according to your logic.

who was handed victory on a silver platter and promptly used it to preen and promote his own self-aggrandizement,

Citation required. Guillaume was handed an empire on a silver platter, true, but the Ultramarines have a formidable list of conquest through both military actions and diplomacy. The FW blackbook stands testament to that. In what way was he handed victory on a silver platter? As far as I remember, he was not really known for taking other people's forces and grinding the, into dust so that he could spare his own soldiers' lives. That seems more like Ferrus shtick judging by his primarch novel (Where he, ironically, throws Ultramarines into a suicide charge and then later shows something that might be called envy or admiration for Guillaume). In what way did he aggrandize himself?

Everyone from Alpharius to Ferrus (as of new lore) to Lorgar hated his guts, and with good cause.

Citation required. Some disliked him, true, but genuine hate is not amongst many of them.

 

All in all, many statements and little to back them up. As Hitchen's Razor teaches us, what has been asserted without evidence can be disregarded without it.

[Lucerne]

 

Your canon illiteracy really isn't my problem-

 

 

The irony is so palpable, I could cut myself on it.

 

 

you're actively ignoring everything in the most recent Heresy novels to make that claim that it's only "ancient" articles that repeatedly get referenced in more recent materials that find Guilliman to be a disloyal and disliked bungler-

 

Citation required for the parts emphasized by me. Guillaume creates Imperius Secundus, true. The motivation, much like the self-titular novel explains from Guillaume's point of view, is to continue the legacy of the Imperium under the assumption that Terra has fallen. Guillaume has no definitive proof of Terra surviving or falling, thus he goes for what we call a "contingency plan". At no point does Guillaume's introspection throughout the whole IS arc show us that he plans to seize Imperium Secundus all for himself and actually secede from the Imperium proper. 

He does assume, and rightfully so as anyone with two braincells to rub together would do, that some would see precisely such a powergrab behind his actions and slander him. As such he installs the ruling trifecta as we know it. The moment he learns of the Imperium surviving, he is shamed of his actions and terrified at the prospect of being seen as a traitor (Specifically shown in Angels of Caliban/Ruinstorm).

Also, not all primarchs have shown specific dislike for him. I'd be interested if you could examples for all primarchs holding such long grudges against him; specifically Sanguinius, the Khan, Ferrus and Dorn would interest me.

Which more recent materials show him as such a, as you put it, bungler?

I'd also like to differentiate in saying that what I am looking for is quotations and citations that show that he is disloyal and universally disliked, not that he is made out to be disloyal by others. After all, I could call you a pink flying elephant with teal polka dots, that doesn't make you one though.

 

 

 with much less nobility or justification than most.

 

With much less nobility than Perturabo, Angron, Curze, Mortarion, Leman, Alpharius, Omegon and Ferrus? Hardly.

 

 

 As for "without glory seeking", squatting on Ultramar and putting it above anything and everything is at best parochialism and at worst knowingly egoistical, disloyal and selfish.

 

Selfish and egoistical, sure. Guillaume is limited by his own cultural superiority complex, a quintessentially Roman aspect of his character. Disloyal in what way though? After all, the model works for the 500 worlds of Ultramar. That is not an insignificant statistic to go off. It is foolish to assume that it'd work for each and every world, but it is not unimaginable that there is a certain merit to how Ultramar is run in-universe.

 

 

Guilliman is a blinkered, petty warlord without even Lorgar's excuses- Lorgar was making more of an effort to create Imperial worlds in his own way,

 

Citation required. Your logic can be applied to Lorgar too. He was trying to apply one model religion through cultural destruction and reconstruction. Why is establishing model theocracies better then what Guillaume did? If anything, both are just as idiotic according to your logic.

 

 

who was handed victory on a silver platter and promptly used it to preen and promote his own self-aggrandizement,

 

Citation required. Guillaume was handed an empire on a silver platter, true, but the Ultramarines have a formidable list of conquest through both military actions and diplomacy. The FW blackbook stands testament to that. In what way was he handed victory on a silver platter? As far as I remember, he was not really known for taking other people's forces and grinding the, into dust so that he could spare his own soldiers' lives. That seems more like Ferrus shtick judging by his primarch novel (Where he, ironically, throws Ultramarines into a suicide charge and then later shows something that might be called envy or admiration for Guillaume). In what way did he aggrandize himself?

 

 

 Everyone from Alpharius to Ferrus (as of new lore) to Lorgar hated his guts, and with good cause.

 

Citation required. Some disliked him, true, but hate is not amongst them.

 

All in all, many statements and little to back them up. As Hitchen's Razor teaches us, what has been asserted without evidence can be disregarded without it.

 

 

Guilliman actively, consciously ignores the question of if his father and brothers are alive and the entire rest of the galaxy...in order to focus on his own empire building.That's secession with a thin veneer of willful ignorance as an excuse. Shame and trying to conceal his crime don't change that Guilliman knowingly committed said crime.

 

To Guilliman, doesn't matter if Horus has taken Terra as long as Guilliman gets to keep playing with his toy soldiers and can bamboozle those around him into going along with his fantasies. All those people, anyone and everyone who invested authority and trust in him or have some relationship with him? They don't matter to him at all-  Sanguinus was useful to him as a figurehead for a time, but then after he was exposed, Guilliman didn't care at all that Sanguinus was willingly walking to his death. He nodded along, smiling, then had the gall to claim hiding from Terra was "penance".

 

Additionally, it's bizarre that you're trying to argue the Iron Cage's background isn't canon or that the Second Founding wasn't butchery of the Legions at gunpoint when everyone from the Fists themselves to the Flesh Tearers reference both in modern novels. So until we get a scouring novel series, you don't get to pretend those events are noncanon just because they spell out in no uncertain terms what the second founding did and how it happened and are continually referenced.

 

Go read the Ferrus novel.

 

Lorgar's a failed Primarch who misunderstood the Imperial truth. Guilliman's a craven, disloyal backstabber who doesn't care about the Imperial truth. Malice, not ignorance.

 

Also, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue with "those in a position to know him and his goals aren't able to accurately assess his character and actions" but it really isn't working.

 

Perturabo had a sense of duty and followed it to his breaking point.

Angron was loyal to his own gladiators and never pretended otherwise.

Curze followed an ideal and was literally insane by the point the Night Haunter turned on the Imperium.

Mortarion honored his oaths and only eventually betrayed them out of duty and a desire for justice and to liberate the galaxy from a tyrant- meanwhile, Robute did exactly the same time to play with toy soldiers.

Leman did exactly what the Emperor asked of him at all times.

Alpharius's actions were always "for the Emperor".

Omegon more directly so.

Ferrus Manus was never disloyal and would have rather killed Robute than tolerate the treasonous farce of Imperium Secundus.

 

Literally any Primarch, in their own way, has showed more nobility and honor in the face of adversity than Robute Guilliman.

 

Ferrus used Ultramarines as the disposable toy soldiers they were, and they didn't like that very much. Throwing his men into the meatgrinders the Emperor had designed Astartes to win rather than resting on his laurels would have been the proper course of action for Guilliman, and had Robute done so, he'd have probably spared more dedicated, dutiful legions- including the Iron Warriors- plenty of issues down the line.

 

If you need a citation for Robute being despised by his brothers, I suggest you look into the source material properly.

[TURBULENCE]

I read the first post and was actually looking forward to reading the discussion. Then I actually read it. Asking for citation to prove a point is a fair ask. I imagine we all learned the basics of essay writing in school. Point, proof, explanation.

 

But no, let's all just bicker about our personal opinions of fictional characters.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

Guilliman actively, consciously ignores the question of if his father and brothers are alive and the entire rest of the galaxy...in order to focus on his own empire building.That's secession with a thin veneer of willful ignorance as an excuse. Shame and trying to conceal his crime don't change that Guilliman knowingly committed said crime.

 

No. He cannot answer the question with satisfying accuracy due to the Ruinstorm prevent any form of meaningful communication. Instead of trying to push through the storm, which would have ended in a disaster, he goes for a contingency plan in order to uphold the Imperium of Man in one shape or another. I suggest you read Imperium Secundus more carefully.

 

 

 

To Guilliman, doesn't matter if Horus has taken Terra as long as Guilliman gets to keep playing with his toy soldiers and can bamboozle those around him into going along with his fantasies. All those people, anyone and everyone who invested authority and trust in him or have some relationship with him? They don't matter to him at all.

 

Precise citation required for such sentiments. It is true that he still feels the need to be in control, which is why he threatens to disband the triumvirate on occassion, which makes him a sore loser, but not a traitorious, fratricidal maniac.

 

 

Also, it's adorable how you're trying to argue the Iron Cage isn't canon or that the Second Founding wasn't butchery of the Legions at gunpoint when everyone from the Fists themselves to the Flesh Tearers references such in modern novels. So until we get a scouring novel, you don't get to pretend those events are noncanon just because they contradict your fanfiction by actually spelling out what the second founding did and how it happened. Nice try, though.

 

 

Glad that you find me adorable, I always aim to please :) Also, you might want to reread my post again with a bit more care. I was not arguing that the Second Founding and the Iron Cage incident are non-canon (How could I as a long standing Iron Warrior); what I was asking for is direct quotes or citations for Guillaume conducting the second founding with particularly malicious intent. There is no current, be it canon or non canon, material that outright states or even implies that Guillaume has split up the legions in order to preserve his own power via having the most successors. If that were true, then why did he come to Dorn's aid? That fanfiction bit? I'd like to quote myself again: The irony is so palpable, I could cut myself on it.

 

 

Go read the Ferrus novel and try cherrypicking more efficiently next time.

 

I don't need to, I have found material that speaks against your thesis well enough.

 

 

Guilliman's a craven, disloyal backstabber who doesn't care about the Imperial truth. Malice, not ignorance.

 

Got some direct quotes or analysis on this one or is it....fanon?

 

 

Also, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue with "those in a position to know him and his goals aren't able to accurately assess his character and actions" but it really isn't working.

 

What I am arguing is narratology. A character can be depicted as having any trait(s) or intent(s) you can imagine and he can be made out to have or be any of these things by participants of his diegetic structure; what he is shown to us to be through our own direct reading of that character and what he is told to us to be through the lenses of other characters does not need to be the same though. One of my actions might be motivated by good intentions, but might influence character B to see me as a villain for reason XYZ. Observation and reality do not need to conform to one another. I suggest you read some of Gerard Genette's writing on narratology, as this is clearly the wrong board to explain the difference between how to read and how to construct a story to you.

 

 

 

Perturabo had a sense of duty and followed it to his breaking point.

Angron was loyal to his own gladiators and never pretended otherwise.

Curze followed an ideal and was literally insane by the point the Night Haunter turned on the Imperium.

Mortarion honored his oaths and only eventually betrayed them out of duty and a desire for justice and to liberate the galaxy from a tyrant- meanwhile, Robute did exactly the same time to play with toy soldiers.

Leman did exactly what the Emperor asked of him at all times.

Alpharius's actions were always "for the Emperor".

Omegon more directly so.

Ferrus Manus was never disloyal and would have rather killed Robute than tolerate the treasonous farce of Imperium Secundus

 

You are equating honour with loyalty, surely then all the traitor primarchs cannot have honour by the virtue of betraying the one they had sworn to serve?

 

 

If you need a citation for Robute being despised by his brothers, I suggest you look into the source material properly.

 

 

No thank you, I think I've done that well enough.

[Lucerne]

Concession accepted that Guilliman was a secessionist control freak who didn't try to find out if his own father, brothers, and Imperium were intact despite very little reason to consider their deaths plausible. It was an act of betrayal.

 

I see you've given up on actually offering counterpoints for Guilliman's canonical actions.

 

Character bias is irrelevant to a consistent trend of Guilliman's disloyalty and lack of honor including background events- indeed, some of the most damning condemnations in the Secundus arc come from those you tried to portray as Guilliman partisans.

 

The traitor primarchs can be argued to have had better intentions and more honesty than Guilliman.

[Robbienw]

Ugolino has previous form for this, he has an irrational hatred for G-man, he has derailed/got locked a few threads on guilliman before.

 

Usually what happens is there will be a thread about or partly about gulliman, ugolino appears early on and states something negative in line with his odd and strange take on him. Then people point out he is wrong. Then ugolino becomes assertive in his opinion, becomes passive aggressive and argumentative, claims everyone else doesn't know their 40k cannon, refuses to cite any evidence to back up his far out point of view, refuses to back down, and generally gets the thread locked.

 

It's a bit annoying cause you think you are going to have a good fluff discussion and he comes along and ruins it for everyone.

 

It really seems to be a Gulliman specific problem as he doesn't troll any other thread about anything else. Probably would be a good idea to ban him from guilliman related threads :lol:

[helterskelter]

A sizeable chunk of white scars nearly turned to Horus

The flesh tearers murdered space wolves under blood lust

Half the dark angels have turned

The raptors killed space wolves, corax also kept a loyal night Lord on hand but killed a word bearer (who's loyalty we didn't know either way)

No loyalist faction comes out of the heresy smelling of roses and to believe otherwise is folly

Guilliman is no exception but if it wasn't for him and his legion the imperium would not have been able to rebuild itself post heresy.

He saved Dorn at the iron cage

His legion shattered any cohesion the night lords had during the scouring

He at least tried to make up for sitting on Ultramar for the little time he did

[Lord_Caerolion]

Guilliman didn't try to leave because he saw that the Ruinstorm was preventing any fleet movement out of Ultramar. The Pharos was the only way for fleet travel within Ultramar. His two choices were effectively 1) batter his fleet to destruction trying to force a way through the Ruinstorm, leaving him in no condition to actually fight Horus if he made it through somehow, or 2) take what steps he could to ensure that the Imperium lives on, and is fully capable of taking part in the fight once the Ruinstorm subsides, whether that be an act of vengeance or reinforcement.

[Lucerne]

Guilliman didn't try to leave because he saw that the Ruinstorm was preventing any fleet movement out of Ultramar. The Pharos was the only way for fleet travel within Ultramar. His two choices were effectively 1) batter his fleet to destruction trying to force a way through the Ruinstorm, leaving him in no condition to actually fight Horus if he made it through somehow, or 2) take what steps he could to ensure that the Imperium lives on, and is fully capable of taking part in the fight once the Ruinstorm subsides, whether that be an act of vengeance or reinforcement.

 

Except that what we actually saw was him not even making a cursory attempt and barring others from trying to do so- far beyond simple pragmatism because it might have failed and well into backstabbing the loyalists to prop up his own coup, something he repeated during the Scouring- and the argument to pragmatism is then pointedly undermined by him intentionally avoiding aiding Terra or saving his own brother's life, long after he lost the Ruinstorm as an excuse. He may well have rationalized it as a "succession", but what it actually was, in setting, was throwing the loyalists under the bus due to lack of character or courage on Guilliman's part.

 

We see everyone from Salamanders to stray Word Bearers to even his fellow Primarchs navigate the Ruinstorm, but Guilliman chose not to even try until his brothers strongarmed him into it. Even then, he would have let Horus take Terra rather than come to the Emperor's aid in his hour of need.

[Lord_Caerolion]

What are you talking about, dude? Avoiding Terra? He attacked the Traitor fleets as soon as he was able to break free from the Ruinstorm, allowing Sanguinius and the Blood Angels to make their prophesied stand at Terra. We also know that he's well aware of the effects of the Ruinstorm, given his efforts at establishing the Pharos, and I believe those books do in fact mention that he is stuck, and not just from lack of trying.

 

Plus, even if he didn't repeatedly try, we know the Ruinstorm is one of the biggest Warp Storms to affect the galaxy. It's the equivalent of seeing a hurricane nearing your airport, thunderclouds everywhere, and knowing you probably shouldn't try to leave by plane. He doesn't need to get airborne and crash to know that it's not a good idea.