Reasons for Guilliman's unpopularity (in Universe)

[Bulwyf]

 

I always thought it interesting that out of all the primarchs the only one that was actively looking for the role of himself and his legion was Bobby G. He was training his boys to be ready for a post combat role in society at the conclusion of the Great Crusade. I was impressed by that then and still am. You could see when some of the other primarchs started to reach conclusions of their role and their legions role in Imperium life after the crusade ended they came to far more darker conclusions.

 

And to be fair to them, they were right. We've seen hints and outright nods in various HH novels that the Big E was going to either get rid of them or use them like strapping Magnus into the Golden Throne type device to use him as the Astronomican energy course. Not good endings.

 

And that's one of the biggest mistakes the HH series has taken recently imo. They really seem to be shifting the narrative from a grand tragedy, and a golden age lost to 'The Imperium always sucked beyond belief, Horus was right to rebel and the biggest schmucks in the entire setting are the loyalists'.

 

It's grimderp/nihilism at its finest, just black on black without even the mad, over the top satirical styling of old 40k (or its 2000AD inspiration) to break the darkness induced audience apathy.

 

 

I have to disagree with you. The Imperium was *never* a good thing. Even during the Great Crusade the outright stated aim of the Emperor and the Imperium was the complete extinction of all non human life in the galaxy. The Emperor forced his sons to be his generals. The two who didn't or wouldn't play along, the two lost primarchs, were killed off. The Emperor is not a good person. The Imperium even during the Imperial Truth was not a moral government.

 

At its best the Imperium embodies xenophobia and either the religious extreme of outlawing all religion or forcing the God-Emperor religion on the masses. Bobby G and his Ultramar are essentially the only example in the entire setting of 30k and 40k of an evolved human civilization that seemed to embody what we consider a moral government. Think about that.

 

The only reason we as long time fans had to believe the Great Crusade was a lost golden age was through what little fluff we had in that era. With the HH series going into detail we can see that it was never the case. The Imperium in 40k is even worse than it was in 30k. The traitor primarchs quite frankly had every reason to rebel because as we've seen the Emperor was simply going to kill them off or force them to be living tools like sticking Magnus in that Golden Throne prototype that was discovered in one of the books.

 

The Emperor killed off the Thunder Warriors who were fanatically loyal to him. There is every reason to believe he was going to cull the space marines if the crusade ended with a complete human domination. We've seen the Emperor outright refer to the primarchs as nothing more than weapons and tools and their legions were even less than that.

 

In terms of the storytelling, if I can agree with you here somewhat, I do agree that it is too grim dark. The good guys in this setting really aren't...that good. At all. The problem is that Chaos and the xenos races (possibly excluding the Tau) are even worse. This is how the setting has always been. GW has removed most of the comical ironic parts (like the Judge Dredd type over the type humor/grimness) which results in a more serious, sombre tone. There is no hope in this setting. None. There never was. The HH books are simply showing us, the readers, that the notion that the Great Crusade was the great height of  human civilization was just a lie.

 

I'm not saying there's no courage or morally good things to find in certain characters or the Imperium but it is definitely, definitely done in heavy shades of grey.

[bluntblade]

I think that's a quite ungenerous interpretation. More pertinently, I object to the way you talk about the Lost Primarchs as if their fate is known. It ain't. One of them might have been corrupted by the Rangda, murdered the other, died in his youth, vanished beyond the universe's limits or become entrapped in a tesseract containing a C'tan shard.

 

For my two cents, the Imperium of 30K is grey of various shades, set against the pitch-black nihilism of Old Night and Chaos. I haven't seen anything to disabuse me of that notion, because dark as the early Imperium is in a lot of places, Chaos only reveals itself as ever more diabolical and a more profound threat.

[Ascanius]

The Emperor's original vision for humanity is better than humanity's lot in 40K, but there's a couple of points here:

 

• "Better" does not mean "good", "desirable", or even "tolerable".
• The manner in which the Emperor went about implementing his vision arguably contributed to the inevitable failure of that vision, resulting in the status quo of 40K.
• The Great Crusade cannot have been a glorious Golden Age from which humanity has fallen into the mire, because even from the start it was depicted as the origin of a lot of horrible, screwed-up stuff

Number one on that list of "horrible, screwed up stuff" is Space Marines - who are, let's not forget, 99.9999999% children incapable of consenting to the drug regimes, surgical procedures, and psychoindoctrination required to turn them into Astartes.

 

Space Marines are also extremely cool, but that's the point.

[Leif Bearclaw]

The only reason we as long time fans had to believe the Great Crusade was a lost golden age was through what little fluff we had in that era. With the HH series going into detail we can see that it was never the case. The Imperium in 40k is even worse than it was in 30k.

See, this is the where HH is losing me. Obviously the GC era wasn't some utopian Star Trek Federation, but imo they should've kept the 'lost golden age' vibe from the older fluff, because that's where the pathos of the story comes in.

 

While I haven't read everything they put out (partly because volume/cost, partly because of exactly this, and my waning enthusiasm). It doesn't feel like 40k is worse off than 30k any more. The early HH books had a really cool 'otherness' to them, the parts were familiar (Astartes, Bolters etc.) but they assembled to form something different, it really did feel like another age. But somewhere after ATS/PB/KNF-ish, that seems to have been lost. What we have now just feel like 40k stories, but with a few different bits of vocabulary.

 

The traitor primarchs quite frankly had every reason to rebel because as we've seen the Emperor was simply going to kill them off or force them to be living tools like sticking Magnus in that Golden Throne prototype that was discovered in one of the books.

I know, that's one of the things I don't like with how they've developed the Heresy. Too much 'the Traitors were right'. Were Sanguinius, Gulliman etc. stupid for their loyalty, or just deluded? Neither option is a particularly endearing character trait imo. We've gone from 'the golden prodigy tears down his father's great work' to 'half the sentient weapons rebelled ahead of schedule'. Again, I just don't see how this loss of pathos, and further darkening an already dark setting, improves the narrative.

 

The Emperor killed off the Thunder Warriors who were fanatically loyal to him. There is every reason to believe he was going to cull the space marines if the crusade ended with a complete human domination. We've seen the Emperor outright refer to the primarchs as nothing more than weapons and tools and their legions were even less than that.

Again, I know, and that's the sort of thing I don't like. It just seems so ... unnecessary. Like they decided that Empy didn't have enough points in his hole stat yet, so lets throw in some betrayal and purging. Especially as there was an already built in answer to 'why no more Thunder Warriors' thanks to their documented instability.

[Elzender]

For all we know, one of the lost Primarchs could have been corrupted by Chaos, and when it became obvious to the Emperor he had to destroy him. After all, I don't think it is too far fetched to think that the Chaos gods left some of the Primarchs in certain planets on purpose (see Caliban and Colchis for Chaos tainted planets, or even Barbarus, Nostramo, Nuceria or Baal as far from ideal homeworlds).

[Marshal Rohr]

The Emperor's original vision for humanity is better than humanity's lot in 40K, but there's a couple of points here:

 

• "Better" does not mean "good", "desirable", or even "tolerable".
• The manner in which the Emperor went about implementing his vision arguably contributed to the inevitable failure of that vision, resulting in the status quo of 40K.
• The Great Crusade cannot have been a glorious Golden Age from which humanity has fallen into the mire, because even from the start it was depicted as the origin of a lot of horrible, screwed-up stuff

Number one on that list of "horrible, screwed up stuff" is Space Marines - who are, let's not forget, 99.9999999% children incapable of consenting to the drug regimes, surgical procedures, and psychoindoctrination required to turn them into Astartes.

 

Space Marines are also extremely cool, but that's the point.

You’re applying modern western moral and ethical norms to a civilization that does not follow them. The idea that children cannot consent to becoming space marines is a phenomenon of the world we live in right now. In the Imperium it won’t be viewed as such.

[bluntblade]

The Great Crusade was comparatively a golden age when you look at Old Night, but the point was that, looking at Calth, the Webway, Prospero etc. it was the cusp of a true golden age.

[Elzender]

Marshal, while I see your point, it is also stated, or at least suggested, that in many instances space marine recruits for the legions were forcefully taken from defeated enemies or just massively recruited from conquered or recently adopted worlds. Probably populations from Primarch homeworlds or the ones were the Legions established a garrison had a different view on them and it might be a voluntary process, but it seems in many instances it was not really the case.

 

It is quite curious that most depictions of Space Marine Legions conquering a planet has either the population revolting, confronting them or just being a xenos planet, but examples of Legions actually liberating a world from a xenos infestation or a quick compliance seem to be really sparse. I understand they don't make for the most interesting stories, but being able to see a bit more of the theorical ideals of the Great Crusade would be nice to break the "no good guys, just bad and worse" trend.

 

(I am really behind reading the HH books, so if instances of worlds being liberated are actually a common thing, please let me know.)

 

As for the Emperor being mostly an hat, while he could have certainly managed things much better, we must take into account the magnitude of his objectives. I don't really want to enter into politics or society analysis here, but considering how difficult is for population groups (be it neighbours, school classes, towns or even regions) to be able to agree on anything and collaborate in a stable way, I cannot imagine the absolute nightmare it has to be ruling not only a whole planet (you know, this roughly ball-shaped rock where we all happen to live), but most of a freaking galaxy. You really cannot be a nice guy to do so, and decisions affecting great parts of a population are not going to sit nicely to most of it.

 

Regarding his treatment of the Primarchs, he did not plan for them to be scattered or be raised in different environments. Had they been raised by him, they would have probably ended up as Uber-Custodes like guys, trained practically since birth to take on their intended role as generals. Moreover, each of them would have a certain affinity for different warfare aspects according to the traits the Emperor introduced in their genetic code. In the same way that Custodes seem to be content enough with their role, Primarchs would have been like this, but being raised in an uncontrolled environment probably gave them a sense of individuality and ego that they were not intended to have.

[bluntblade]

I can think of a few instances of liberation campaigns. The Battle of Rust I'd count as one, the Raven Guard and Death Guard each fight one such battle in the FW books too. You could also count Sarum (World Eaters), and the Dark Angels on House Vyronii's world.

 

You know, that's an aspect of Mortarion I'd like to see more of in pre-Heresy material. The "dread liberator" that Barbarus made him.

[TURBULENCE]

Aha back on track. Excellent.

 

Sadly not to much to add to the discussion, but really enjoying the different points being made. A few things I'd like to point out though. For one, only a few of the primarchs actually got along with eachother. I feel as though they're all prideful, jealous individuals. Which makes sense with the kind of power thrust upon them. That kind of power will change anyone for the worst. Which I'd in line with the flashback to the emperor's comments on ullanor in MoM. He knew they were prideful, and played on that pride.

 

Also as for the Emperor stating they were just tools, remember that what the Emperor says, isn't really what he's saying, but how the individual in question wants to hear him be. Everything is subjective and questionable. That had to be confusing for the primarchs, as each would see their 'father' very differently. Which in turn I could imagine sowing distrust between them.

 

Honestly none of them were great people. But at the same time all of them did have some level of redeeming qualities

[bluntblade]

The dislike some of the other Legions had for him seems to have been partly envious, as well as stemming from that fact that he had it pretty easy. Khârn thinks of Armatura as the work of "genius at play". Guilliman's dream fits the Imperium, and his large Legion, fed by a prosperous empire which he is in the right place to build, gives him the opportunity to "play" in that manner.

[b1soul]

@Ugolino

 

"the backwater of Ultramar"

 

Ultramar is a backwater in the way that, say, Chicago is a backwater of the U.S.

 

"so his superpower was plagiarism"

 

His superpower is administration/organisation, logistics, and incorporation and improvement of already good ideas into a hyper-efficient macro-system, i.e. synthesis. He's simply the best empire builder and maintainer among his brethren. After Sol, Ultramar is arguably the crown jewel of the Imperium.

 

His genius is in some ways less and in some ways more than that of his brothers. Downplaying it to "plagiarism" is like saying Vulkan was only good at hitting pieces of metal with a hammer or Russ was only good at swinging an axe or Curze was only good at hiding behind objects

[Gorgoff]

Hey guys, who is that pale fella behind those rocks?

- Oh, that's Curze. It's kind of his thang.

 

;)

[bluntblade]

No, that's Corvus. Curze is the one making intestine tinsel.

[Ascanius]

 

 

You’re applying modern western moral and ethical norms to a civilization that does not follow them.

 

Not to be too dreadfully obvious, but . . . so what?

 

As for the Emperor being mostly an hat, while he could have certainly managed things much better, we must take into account the magnitude of his objectives.

 

Yeah, but do we, though?

 

Do the ends justify the means?

[bluntblade]

Humanity not having to choose between being nommed and ultimately being the playthings of Chaos? Yeah, I'd strike that bargain in the 31st millennium.

[Elzender]

Ascanius, I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here, not really defending Emps actions (most of them I know from indirect sources such as threads here in the B&C and wikis, maybe when I get to read them strsight from the novels I get much more horrified and go full "Horus was right!").

However, my limited scope of the world shows me that usually, the bigger the responsibility a person has, the more dehumanized his/her decisions are, since they will never, or hardly ever, please most of the target population, even if it is the best decision available. Sadly, when dealing with populations, you have to turn the into pure numbers and statistics in order to be able to take any decision, amd that's when one starts to thread the path of the cuss:hole.

 

Personally, I also prefer the older view of the "Golden Age lost", probably because when I got introduced to the setting, I was too young to understand the darker topics or underlying themes. Also, my scope was mostly limited to the Space Marine and eldar codexes, and I did not really read too much of the setting until I became much older. So to me, Space Marines are still the superhuman heroes that save Humanity from uncountable threats (guess the Emperor's iconic description of them in the back of the 3rd Ed codex stuck with me) and not kidnapped, hypnoindoctrinated, tortured and drugged kid soldiers facing other equally nightmarish abominations.

While I can understand that adding grey or even outright evil aspects to the nascent Imperium gives it more interest, I agree that GW/FW/FW have overplayed it too much for my taste. Showing the Emperor being fallible, and commiting mistakes? Sure, go ahead, it makes him a more believable character and also makes it easier to understand why some Primarchs rebelled. Having him taking pragmatic but immoral decisions at some points? Ok, the burden of power takes its toll on everyone. The Emperor being a psycho/sociopath that gets rid of everything and everyone that does not need anymore? Not my cup of tea, and it will be interesting to see how they reimagine the duel with Horus if he really never saw the Primarchs as his sons.

 

Then again, the Emperor was a warlord that wanted to rule over the whole human species, and I think we can agree that most people in history that had similar ambitions were never the nicest of people, regardless of their suposedly good intentions.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

You’re applying modern western moral and ethical norms to a civilization that does not follow them.

Not to be too dreadfully obvious, but . . . so what?

 

As for the Emperor being mostly an hat, while he could have certainly managed things much better, we must take into account the magnitude of his objectives.

Yeah, but do we, though?

 

Do the ends justify the means?

So because this is a universe and not a allegory we’ve got to be very careful about letting people make connections on the fly. In the era of outrage and hashtags it’s important to point out things like ‘don’t murder’ and ‘don’t steal’ may not be the rules anymore.

[Ascanius]

I don't accept the Imperium's self-justifications for evil actions as valid, even in the context of the 40K universe as described in objective terms.

 

For instance, the objective existence of Chaos does not justify every action of the Inquisition. The objective existence of powerful, hostile aliens does not justify creating drugged and mutilated child soldiers to exterminate them entirely.

 

That the threats are objectively true in 40K is undeniable. What is wholly deniable, though, is the Imperial belief that what they are doing is the only thing that can be done, the thing that must be done.

[Marshal Rohr]

That’s fine, because you’re choosing that, but again it’s a personal choice.

[Bulwyf]

I don't accept the Imperium's self-justifications for evil actions as valid, even in the context of the 40K universe as described in objective terms.

 

For instance, the objective existence of Chaos does not justify every action of the Inquisition. The objective existence of powerful, hostile aliens does not justify creating drugged and mutilated child soldiers to exterminate them entirely.

 

That the threats are objectively true in 40K is undeniable. What is wholly deniable, though, is the Imperial belief that what they are doing is the only thing that can be done, the thing that must be done.

 

The Imperium believes the ends justify the means. When you describe the good guys to people new to the setting you can see some people just turn away from it completely. The good guys would be considered xenophobic religious child stealing monsters...that are still better than the actual monsters in the galaxy. 

 

I've wondered over the years if the grim dark is in fact TOO grim dark and that a more noble Imperium might attract more players to the setting. If you look at warhammer fantasy for instance the good guys are pretty much outright classic good guys. There's still some bad things being done but it isn't anywhere near as bad as the Imperium.

 

I realize that question might be best in its own topic so I'll try not to go off on that tangent. But since the conversation has leaned towards a contrast between Bobby G's Ultramar and the Imperium at large it seemed appropriate.

[Ascanius]

 

I've wondered over the years if the grim dark is in fact TOO grim dark and that a more noble Imperium might attract more players to the setting. If you look at warhammer fantasy for instance the good guys are pretty much outright classic good guys. There's still some bad things being done but it isn't anywhere near as bad as the Imperium.

 

Without getting into it too much: maybe, but there's plenty of settings like that out there already - and you'd have to change a lot about the 40K setting to get to the point where the Imperium's even close to morally neutral.

[Jackalwolf]

I don't accept the Imperium's self-justifications for evil actions as valid, even in the context of the 40K universe as described in objective terms.

 

For instance, the objective existence of Chaos does not justify every action of the Inquisition. The objective existence of powerful, hostile aliens does not justify creating drugged and mutilated child soldiers to exterminate them entirely.

 

That the threats are objectively true in 40K is undeniable. What is wholly deniable, though, is the Imperial belief that what they are doing is the only thing that can be done, the thing that must be done.

See mate? That's how chaos gets you. Putting insidious doubt in your mind:

 

- what if we could do better? (Magnus)

- what if I accept this deviant humans instead of purging them? (Davinites)

- maybe I can improve the space marines and save my brothers instead of letting them die (Fabius Bile)

- maybe my father doesn't really care about me (Horus)

 

Too lenient. Believe in the Emperor, a being superior to us in all ways and trust his vision. I might not like what I have to do but I will never doubt in doing it. That's the space wolves way.

[Gorgoff]

So... that's the reason why some of the Primarchs didn't like Gulliman?

[TheRealMcCagh]

I think a lot of Primarchs weren't super enthused with Guilliman taking their ideas and strategies and tweaking them and then presenting them with what could have been a better alternative. I'm not the biggest fan when a supervisor comes up to me a month later and says 'ya know, it would have been smoother if you did X,Y,Z after you did A,B an C.' I'm sure it would have, but you've been sitting in your office brainstorming a solution for a month now and I had five minutes to come up with a solution while the problem was actually happening. Also, if he went up to a brother with an idea, I imagine they would say' what a perfectly Macraggian answer to a Baalite problem. I'll file your solution in the wastebin Bobbie.'