Viable counter attack option

[Lion's Crown]

I feel we are lacking any decent counter attack unit.

 

Beside throwing scouts to the wolves, what are our option?

[sneakybamsen]

Only semidecent melee unit we have is deathwing knights. And they are too expensive. I usually run wihout proper charge deterrents, preferring to do what we do better than fighting in CC - blasting my opponents off the table from distance.

 

Some people run dreadnoughts equipped with a DCCW, but consensus seems to be that against units that want to get into melee, they are short stacked anyways. In fact our best charge deterrents might be our HQ's. Sammael, Azrael, Heavenfall Blade-wielding Master/talonmaster/lieutenant or Belial. Maybe even Ezekiel, though he is not fantastic in melee. Problem is getting enough melee throughput to be able to effectively tie in a unit of Death Company or Khorne Berzerkers while also having the survivability to weather the storm. Berzerkers with VotlW will wound a dreadnought on 4's, unless someone has given the aspiring champion a powerfist, in which case he's wounding on 2's. So with the number of attacks from a big squad and the AP of axes, a dreadnought will not last more than a round usually. If lucky, it might get to swing before it goes down, in which case, it will kill 3 zerkers with a bit of luck, but most likely no more than two. Death company will, I think, quickly get to the same result. Dreadnoughts only effectively tie up chaff with S3 and not a too overwhelming amount of attacks, but then your dreadnought will not be firing it's assault/lascannon. And it doesn't have the attacks or rules needed to be able to kill the chaff fast enough.

[Hantheman]

It’s funny you ask but I play a defensive counter punch tactic. I find that to be a strong play for us.

 

The castle draws on attacks and with ancients and Azrael you kill on their charge and then intractable if they make it in.

 

As has already been said. Our HQs are good in melee and Azrael will do work regardless of the situation.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I agree with Sneaky, do what we do well.

MSU and screen/spread out, then withdraw survivors and shoot as a counter attack.

8th encourages it, just do it.

[Lion's Crown]

Basicaly what I'm wondering is, in regard of competitive play, if we are now mostly a bike and scout army.

[Cleanse And Purify]

So are deathwing knights viable at all? Absolutely love the models, but Terminators in general are a bit pants (as usual) this edition, so I'm hesitant to include them even as my soul screams "Belial+Deathwing Ancient deathstar in a land raider, damn the odds!" :D

[Endgame]

For Deathwing Knights, use asmodi instead of of Belial. Same number of rerolls, but you get av extra +1 attack

[Endgame]

Also, there are several interesting vet builds I haven't tried yet. For 26 points a model you can get vets with storm bolter and lightning claw. Pair with asmodi as your warlord and that gets you str 5 vets on the charge that reroll hits, wounds, and have 3 attacks each.

 

If that is too expensive, you can get power swords for 22 points per model and a simple matter will let you reroll 1s on both the storm bolters and the power weapons.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Not sure how expensive Blackwing Knights are, but that unit is quite tough, has good shooting at mid range, and is VERY fast to get where you need to counter punch, and is reasonably punchy as well with S5 attacks, not sure what AP, but should be -1. Otherwise, even if DWK is slow, park them near your gunline and DARE your opponnent to come to your lines.

[Gederas]

Not sure how expensive Blackwing Knights are, but that unit is quite tough, has good shooting at mid range, and is VERY fast to get where you need to counter punch, and is reasonably punchy as well with S5 attacks, not sure what AP, but should be -1. Otherwise, even if DWK is slow, park them near your gunline and DARE your opponnent to come to your lines.

Corvus Hammers are +1 S, -1 AP, and a minimum-sized squad of Black Knights with those is 138 points (46 per Knight, the Hammers are free).

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Not sure how expensive Blackwing Knights are, but that unit is quite tough, has good shooting at mid range, and is VERY fast to get where you need to counter punch, and is reasonably punchy as well with S5 attacks, not sure what AP, but should be -1. Otherwise, even if DWK is slow, park them near your gunline and DARE your opponnent to come to your lines.

Corvus Hammers are +1 S, -1 AP, and a minimum-sized squad of Black Knights with those is 138 points (46 per Knight, the Hammers are free).

 

 

hmmm, expensive but certainly versatile. Just park them behind LOS or in cover near your gunline so you can unleash your angry biker gang on deep strikers, even plasma WOTDA  big monsters before finishing off with your angry pick axes.

 

Personally, I wish I had those angry bikes.

[Hantheman]

 

 

Not sure how expensive Blackwing Knights are, but that unit is quite tough, has good shooting at mid range, and is VERY fast to get where you need to counter punch, and is reasonably punchy as well with S5 attacks, not sure what AP, but should be -1. Otherwise, even if DWK is slow, park them near your gunline and DARE your opponnent to come to your lines.

Corvus Hammers are +1 S, -1 AP, and a minimum-sized squad of Black Knights with those is 138 points (46 per Knight, the Hammers are free).

 

 

hmmm, expensive but certainly versatile. Just park them behind LOS or in cover near your gunline so you can unleash your angry biker gang on deep strikers, even plasma WOTDA  big monsters before finishing off with your angry pick axes.

 

Personally, I wish I had those angry bikes.

 

 

All of ravenwing is entirely dependent on the terrain. If there's enough LoS blocking stuff they're great, if not they just get blown up.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ hanthemannn - that's why you got jink though. Although I admit 3+/5++ on T5 is not that hard to kill, if you have enough screening combined with that flying smoke cloud land speeder, your Ravenwing counter assault/assault element will have a fair chance across the board.

 

Again I wish I had angry bikes instead of stupid overgrown mutts. 

 

Also, is the Ravenwing command squad different in points from BK? Actually is there still a Command Squad? Or are all those guys separate now?

 

If so, maybe instead of a full BK squad, maybe just leave a champion behind. Hmmmm, maybe not, I don't know stats, but at best, probably only 3 attacks which is not enough to be a decent counter assault unit..... but he is a character so can't be sniped as he hangs around your backline.

[007]

I use Sableclaw, Talon Master, and deepstriking plasma inceptors for speedy counter attacking ability.  Has been super effective in the tournaments I've competed in.

[Lion's Crown]

I use Sableclaw, Talon Master, and deepstriking plasma inceptors for speedy counter attacking ability.  Has been super effective in the tournaments I've competed in.

 

But inceptors only benefits from the reroll to 1 of Sammael. That's a lot of points for only 2 models buffing each others. It must hit hard but doesn't seem viable against list that countains a lot of high T and multiple wounds as well.

[007]

Correct, the Inceptors get reroll 1's to hit from Sammael, and reroll 1's to wound from the Talon Master.  No different that using a jump pack Master and Lieutenant together.  It has performed very well against lists with high toughness and multiple wounds.  The Inceptors typically kill one or two units when they drop in.  Add in the supporting fire from my two Hellblaster squads and enemy units just disappear.  When viable, I drop the Inceptors in range of Azrael, the Ancient, and the Dark Shroud to make my opponent dedicate even more assets to destroy them.  I frequently get multiple turns out of the Inceptors.