Fat knight tacticae - how to field a Porphyrion

[Heliomanes]

So, me, Stray and Clingy in particular have been dancing around this topic since before the codex launched. We love the Acastus knight Porphyrion. The kit is amazing - incredibly well put together and a true joy to assemble and paint.

But - how do we take it to the field in a matter that is pleasing to the Master of Machines? A tall order, since it's essentially 850-950 points of pure anti-tank, which can turn matches into a pretty convoluted and expensive approximation of rock, scissors, paper. I have fond memories of doing a bajillion wounds on four Ork Boyz, for instance.

So I think the discussion can be best furthered by focusing on two distinct topics - army composition (Guard? Admech? A big knight force?), and knight armaments (Household, Relic, Warlord trait). These will inevitably intersect, but it should get us going.

I think there's a strong case to be made for the 180 point Astra Militarum command point generator batallion, and a House Raven Porphyrion. Their stratagem will allow you to reroll all 1s. Including to hit, to wound, and all the D3s you roll to determine number of shots. And it lasts for the entire phase, so you can aim one barrel at a land raider, and another at a fire raptor, and use the bonuses for both volleys. Still, this is pretty CP-hungry, so you'll have to bring something that can generate those points for you.

[Clingy]

Bring on the discussion!

 

I’ve been fiddling round with BattleScribe and had some weird and wonderful ideas.

 

My latest involves a stygies alpha strike with 20 electro priests and (4)dragoon squad up front to put the hurt on the enemy. Toying with the options of filling this out, a cheap 199 Admech battalion or 180 guard bat, maybe even both?

[Heliomanes]

I think that's a solid choice, Clingy.

Admech from Stygies can do a lot of good in a Porphyrion list. They can generate command points and sit on more objectives than the one the Porp is standing on top of - and the infiltration stratagem can contest objectives far from our deployment zone. The fat knights are a bit too cumbersome, especially on gaming boards with a lot of terrain, which should be the norm, to be moving much. Rangers and vanguard, the obligatory troop choices, can also be fairly effective against other chaff units - which are the natural counter to the fat knights.

You'll also be getting some value out of the obligatory Enginseers, well, at least one of them, who should be camping around doing field repairs on the big guy.

So, you'll want a batallion at the very least. Enginseers and rangers seem like good choices, but vanguard aren't too bad either. Big rifleman units with few or no special weapons could fit well in an army like this. They give a footprint that can guard the knight from chargers and deep strikers, and a lot of anti-infantry firepower.

I really like dragoons because of the bargain price (in points at least), the mobility, which is key in objective games, and how well they respond to the +2 to hit stratagem since every modified 6 generates more hits. A bit less sure about electro priests for this kind of list, but I see other people using them with a lot of success. At least when they go first.

I think we could make a case for Onagers with Icarus arrays and a Tech Priest Dominus. They get a lot of shots, which can be helpful against hordes and so on, and he can give them a reroll 1 bubble. It's a way to make use of your obligatory HQ choices and try to shore up some of the Porphyrion's weaknesses at least.

What do you think? Any other things we should keep in mind when designing a Stygies Porphyrion list?

[Clingy]

Well anti tank is covered. But anti horde is probs a weakness that needs shored up.

 

I considered a couple of armigers but they take you a bit to close to the points cap to be effective I think

[point_Zer0]

What i recently fought of - give it a 4++ against shooting and 5++ against everything (to fend off those thunderhummers and such). And then, if needed, give it 3++ against shooting and 4++ against deepstrikers for !1cp!. It is going to be EXTREMELY hard to bring down with it's T9 and W30.

 

I tried playing it as house raven for the sole porpose of the strategem to re-roll 1s. It worked (but i also can be 2cp spent for nothing, so it's a gamble) as i've took out 24 wound out of a baneblade just by it's main weaponry in one shooting fase.

 

p.s also you can field it as a hawkshroud knight - it's gonna be even tougher. I just see no point in all the others as it already has super awesome shooting and it won't go charging anyone.

[Clingy]

What i recently fought of - give it a 4++ against shooting and 5++ against everything (to fend off those thunderhummers and such). And then, if needed, give it 3++ against shooting and 4++ against deepstrikers for !1cp!. It is going to be EXTREMELY hard to bring down with it's T9 and W30.

 

I tried playing it as house raven for the sole porpose of the strategem to re-roll 1s. It worked (but i also can be 2cp spent for nothing, so it's a gamble) as i've took out 24 wound out of a baneblade just by it's main weaponry in one shooting fase.

 

p.s also you can field it as a hawkshroud knight - it's gonna be even tougher. I just see no point in all the others as it already has super awesome shooting and it won't go charging anyone.

Interesting. What did you take in support of the big guy?

[point_Zer0]

 

Interesting. What did you take in support of the big guy?

 

Atropos - warlord, Castigator, 3 Armigers warglaives and a marine cp battery (Cap+Leit+snipe scouts*2+scouts with a heavy bolter)

[Clingy]

Nice. Double down on forgeworld!

 

I quite like the look of the Atropos

[Charlo]

Porphyron and 3 Gallants.

 

Job done.

[Clingy]

6CP though.

[Charlo]

Enough to go full tilt on all three Gallants for 3 turns!

[Clingy]

For when you absolutely need to be causing chaos in everything’s face all the time

[Stray]

It's somewhat ironic that the Gallant actually out-damages the Porphyrion on average now!

 

When you deploy three of them, who is supporting who? :P

[Heliomanes]

Honestly, that sounds really fun to play. In a more downscaled sense, the point still carries through. A gallant or something similar can provide great target saturation increasing the life expectancy of the Porphyrion, without contesting the same nichè like a Castelan would. It also can take care of large groups through stomp and can contest objectives, thus shoring up some of the weaknesses of the big guy. I'd be stoked to see some lists incorporating both.

[Stray]

Honestly, that sounds really fun to play. In a more downscaled sense, the point still carries through. A gallant or something similar can provide great target saturation increasing the life expectancy of the Porphyrion, without contesting the same nichè like a Castelan would. It also can take care of large groups through stomp and can contest objectives, thus shoring up some of the weaknesses of the big guy. I'd be stoked to see some lists incorporating both.

 

I think at 2k points, I'd be tempted to take a pair of Gallants with a Porphy for sure. It's not many models, but not one of them could be ignored. Each is quite capable of dealing a swift 20+ wounds to your most expensive toys per turn without even the need of any particularly hot dice.

 

I quite like the idea of a unit of Hoplites screening the Porphyrion against charges too - especially given they tend to sit somewhat at the back and shoot. Hoplites are cheap, and a really very tanky meatshield against anything that would deepstrike back there. Generally, that's how you'd lose old Porphy, so they look better and better as a supporting cast - and it's as fluffy as it gets.

[Clingy]

I want to see photos of this. I’m quite tempted by the hoplites but am focusing on the big guys first

[Heliomanes]

Ok, here's a 2x Gallant version on 2k points.

Knight lance from House Krast
Porphyrion, 2+ 4++
Knight Gallant
Knight Gallant

Imperial Guard Batallion
Company Commander
Psyker
10 guardsmen
10 guardsmen
10 guardsmen

Stygies patrol
Enginseer
5 Rangers
15 Hoplites.

What do you think?

[Clingy]

That my good man, is a very cheeky looking list.

 

Pictures when you get a game :)

[Charlo]

Not bad - but I'd pump the points from AM into more Ad Mech if you want Hoplites, personally.

[Stray]

Ok, here's a 2x Gallant version on 2k points.

 

Knight lance from House Krast

Porphyrion, 2+ 4++

Knight Gallant

Knight Gallant

 

Imperial Guard Batallion

Company Commander

Psyker

10 guardsmen

10 guardsmen

10 guardsmen

 

Stygies patrol

Enginseer

5 Rangers

15 Hoplites.

 

What do you think?

 

I like it. I've been playing with the list to see if it can be min-maxed any further and frankly, it's hard. You're running close to the edge at 2k points huh?

 

This is another option:

 

Knight Lance - Krast

Porphyrion (2x Lascannon) - Headsmans Mark

Gallant - Paragon Gauntlet

Gallant - Landstrider

 

Astra Militarium - Supreme Command Detachment

Company Commander (Warlord) - Aquila, Strategist

Primaris Psyker

Primaris Psyker 

 

Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion - Stygies VII

Tech Priest Enginseer

Tech Priest Enginseer

5x Rangers

5x Rangers

5x Rangers

10 x Hoplites

 

8CP, 1985 points.

 

 

 

I think for me, the Headsmans Mark is almost an auto-take on the Porphyrion. If you're fielding one, you're shooting at heavy targets, and this relic will add 1-2 extra wounds per shot. I'm not that worried about extra saves on it. It's T9, 30 wounds. Deterioration won't hurt it as much as usual due to BS 2+ to begin with, and it won't be moving much in all likelihood. Also, your opponent will likely be too busy wetting themselves over the pair of Gallants running down their throat to worry about Porphy for a bit. You DO have room to add an extra Warlord trait though if you want to pony up the extra 2 CP.

 

Taking the Guard as a supreme command detachment nets us an extra CP, and dumps the infantry which we likely won't use anyway. We get an extra Psyker too, which seems worthwhile.

 

The Battalion is setup for Rangers because they're cheap, they have decent range, and as MSU's we really just want them to sit on objectives really. We can keep an Enginseer by Porphy to help out the Hoplites if it get's charged, and for the odd sneaky repair each turn. 

The other Enginseer can... probably find something to do. Probably

 

I'd ideally like more Hoplites, and points can be played with to up the unit size a little. Not as much as I'd like, but we're really just using them to absorb a charge anyway. They're a tough screening unit, not star players. They're there to die basically. Porphy can HI and riverdance too if he wants which will give him a CC turn where he's not vulnerable. Same with the Enginseer (well, except for the stomping )

[Heliomanes]

An interesting thought, using the Guard Supreme Command Detachment for CP shenanigans. Still, I think the guardsmen are a good choice. With orders like First rank fire, second rank fire, and the Cadia bonus - you could do a lot of damage versus opponents that the Porphyrion isn't doing too well against. And you free up points for more Hoplites or other guilty pleasures, as you can see in the difference between our two lists.

I'm not too keen on the Headsman relic, to be frank. When I've fielded the Porphyrion he's always utterly annihilated whatever he shot at. I either lose when he's taken down by weight of fire, or when he's standing as the sole survivor, with nothing but cheap enemy infantry in sight. So I'd rather spend my points, relics and warlord traits shielding myself against those situations.

[Clingy]

That knight Lance is a scary thought! “OMG what do I shoot at!!!” :P

[Stray]

An interesting thought, using the Guard Supreme Command Detachment for CP shenanigans. Still, I think the guardsmen are a good choice. With orders like First rank fire, second rank fire, and the Cadia bonus - you could do a lot of damage versus opponents that the Porphyrion isn't doing too well against. And you free up points for more Hoplites or other guilty pleasures, as you can see in the difference between our two lists.

 

I'm not too keen on the Headsman relic, to be frank. When I've fielded the Porphyrion he's always utterly annihilated whatever he shot at. I either lose when he's taken down by weight of fire, or when he's standing as the sole survivor, with nothing but cheap enemy infantry in sight. So I'd rather spend my points, relics and warlord traits shielding myself against those situations.

 

I know what you're saying for sure.

 

My reason behind the relic is that it allows you to split your fire with much, much more confidence. You've two main weapons, and two Lascannon, each of which can get an extra 2 wounds per shot - no strings attached. If there is something really scary on the board, I don't feel so much like I have to declare everything into it with the Mark equipped. And allowing myself to engage a few targets per turn gets me so much more for my points, you know?

 

Totally feeling you on keeping Porphy safe, but I feel like in this list he's really only vulnerable to shooting with any kind of immediacy. He still gets his 4++ with Rotate, and I firmly believe most of the shooting will be directed toward the Gallants anyway. I'd be looking to assault a Porphyrion rather than get into a shooting war with one as I'm really unlikely to take it out swiftly, and in shooting it, I have to be exposed to reprisal?

 

You do you though buddy. It's a list with wiggle room for stuff like this.

 

You can still just about squeeze in 15 Hoplites if you wish too I think. Take Autocannon on the Porphyrion and drop a Psyker for another commander. You'll just about be there I believe.

I'm unsure whether I feel it's worth it though as they're really just there to absorb a charge for a turn. Most things that'll threaten a Porphyrion in CC won't worry much about 5 Hoplites I guess. They buy you breathing room.

[Heliomanes]

Fair point. Even if we disagree about the relic and the need for guardsmen, having a near equivalent list for those who don't have the models for a Guard batallion is a good thing.

[Stray]

Yeah, for sure buddy.

 

Believe me, no one is going to want to run one of my lists at any level of seriousness :P

 

But we can provide different approaches, the reasons for them, and maybe that'll give some inspiration or a starting point for someone.